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Time to show your cards Riot

Oxyrotten·3/4/2018, 2:37:37 AM·2 votes·544 views

One of my mentors used to tell me "show me the code", a run on Jerry Macquire's quote "show me the money".

It meant put your money where your mouth is, and prove yourself with results.

It's time Riot shows us the algorithm for matchmaking. I have been getting constant games (especially in promos) where the opposing team is all stacked with players 2 ranks above me, and my team is stacked with players a rank or two below me. Some of the teams average 100 MMR (op.gg estimation) above our team. One game I was estimated at over 200 MMR higher than the rest of my team.

A ranked promotional game of 100 MMR difference between teams is in no way fair, and the disparity is very obvious when watching the players struggle to keep from feeding against higher skilled opponents. Being 200 MMR higher than my team is not fair in ranked games. The system is binary and should not expect me to carry an entire team because of a disparity of that magnitude.

Once a month I get a series of games where my team is stacked higher than the opposing team and again it's landslide win's, only in my favor this time. The rest of the time there does seem to be a matchmaking system push to keep winrate's at 50% by matching team's with identifiable troll's, bad's, int'ers, and whatnot (pushing winrate's up and down to 50%). And then if you are out performing the standard deviation, it stacks odds against you (noticeably in promos).

Before you all go ballistic on me and flame me, I fully understand how MMR and ELO and matchmaking (supposedly), and hard and soft stats work. I'm just asking for proof that it is working as intended, or as Riot states is intended.

I want to see the code Riot. Show me the code.

48 Comments

Mysticman893/6/2018, 2:26:17 AM3 votes

Theres a pretty good chance the specific code they use is proprietary and not something reasonably to release to the masses. Perhaps if you want to pay them a crap ton they could give a limited license which would allow you to see it, and that hardly seems worthwhile.

Besides, all but the most trivial code can get pretty dense. One can make things look nice by making nice human readable functions all over the place, but once you dig down into the meat of those functions, and particularly somewhat optimized stuff, it quickly gets less intuitive.

And I mean, if they did come out and the logic of it was something relatively simple like:

Put everyone queueing for each role into a bin for that role. Sort them by mmr. Pick a random player from one bin, look for another player in a different bin with an mmr within delta (where delta is a function of the time spent in queue). Repeat looking for a player within delta of the new average mmr of that partial team from different bins. Loop through that process until you have a bunch of teams made consisting of players with similar mmr. Then whenever there are two teams with an mmr within delta of each other, match them.

Perhaps with some additional clauses for dealing with autofill, and some biases for premades and purple/blue side. Still, the general gist of the code would be to create fair (as determined by mmr) matches. Would that satisfy you though, or would you then question whether matching by mmr produces fair matches?

Would you want to go beyond just the matchmaking part and into how mmr changes as a result of those matches?

Would you want to go even further and want a full analysis of whether that resulting mmr system would actually sort people by player skill? What if riot doesn't have that analysis (which would be a big deal and likely get publication in some pretty prestigious academic journals), and just go by simulations (e.g. generate a bunch of 'players' with true levels hidden from the match maker, and see if the mmr system eventually sorts them properly) and the data they have from tracking the mmr of known high skill players? At that point, you basically just have their word that it works, which is what we already started with. (Theres also relatively naive player done simulations like this that conclude that things work eventually, although it can take a bunch of games.)

Eedat3/4/2018, 2:53:12 AM3 votes

Maybe you should stop using op.gg for exact numbers and treat it as a ballpark figure instead. You know, because that's what it is lol

haaaaaaalp3/5/2018, 7:03:53 PM2 votes

{quoted}

Riot stated that they were using an Elo system. Then around season 3 they changed to an MMR system, but they admitted that it is not a traditional MMR system as they factor in several other variables into the equation. I wrote this in my last response but once again you did not read or comprehend what was written before you responded. They have written this in a number of posts and support files, but once again you did not read or comprehend what was written before you responded. This has been discussed before in a number of other threads, but once again you did not read or comprehend what was written before you responded.

Ok I see now that this is clearly over your head. So I apologize for being toxic, it's something I am working on. Let me explain and hopefully you will see why what your saying is absurd.

Code is like math, it is scientific and subject to scientific methods. We will be focusing on repeatable process. Let's just make this like 3rd grade level for you. Say you have the 5 numbers. 1-5. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. In order to reach 5 you can do a number of equations. 1+1+1+1+1=5, or 2+3=5 or 4+1=5 and so on. Following with me? Since we have verifiable outcomes already, all we have to do is test the code that Riot says they are using and if it adds up to 5, then it works and outputs correctly. That is all I am asking to do.

Furthermore, your reasoning is frustrating because it is absurd. Your using fallacy and hypothetical situations that are irrelevant to the conversation to try and refute science. Have you ever heard of a defense attorney saying "Nope, we just aren't going to present any evidence because you won't believe the evidence even if it is true." No. You have not. Because that is absurd. Saying "You just won't believe Riot if you think they are lying anyway" is absurd. It is a fallacy and a copout. There is no grounding for that claim, and it defy's logic. That is why I am getting frustrated, to complicate things you are putting words into my mouth and creating these imaginary posts in your head that support your ideas, but the problem is they don't exist. I can not have a rational conversation if you are being irrational. You can not infer your own implications from what I said using your own flawed reasoning, and expect that to make sense to other people other than yourself.

Your imagination and personal interpretation does not define reality.

You are still missing the implications of what you are saying. You are acknowledging that riot has access to a fair mmr code which they can easily present as the code in the game. You also acknowledge that you don't believe what riot says. Riot showing you a string of code which they claim is for matchmaking doesnt change anything because you can easily just turn back and say there is no proof the code they show you is currently implemented in the game.

I am not putting any words in your mouth, just illustrating the implications of what you say. If you cannot understand those implications, that is your own damn fault. As long as you say you don't believe what riot posts, riot posting a string of code which they claim is in the game won't make any differents. Riot showing you any string of code only shows that they have access to said string, not that it is in the actual game.

haaaaaaalp3/6/2018, 1:02:19 AM1 votes

{quoted}

Come on man. You have got to learn how to read. Like you really really need to. It's not too much to ask. And it's a necessary skill you will need later on in life.

I never said test for MMR. You made this up, in your fairy tale world. Again. In fact I have continuously time after time said the opposite. I even explained it in detail for you, repeatedly explained it in great detail. If your not going to listen then why are you talking? Stop making things up. I can't converse with you if you are insistent on creating imaginary conversations and responding to them instead of me.

Like what are you even talking about. We have billions upon billions of statistical data values to draw from. Billions. And I explained in detail the scientific process, which you STILL do not seem to understand.

We have a real sample size and population of millions of players do we not? And for each player they play multiple games correct? And for each game there are multiple statistics are there not? So what in gods name are you talking about? You keep bringing up testing for mmr. Nobody said that, except YOU. You are once again delusional and putting words in my mouth. Again. For fucks sake. Stop it. Stop making shit up and thinking it is the basis for what we are talking about. Jesus loving mary and joseph. Fucking stop. Holy shit son, just stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Your just absolutely insane.

I explained time after time and in great detail, I even dumbed it down to a third grade level, and you still ignore science and substitute it with your own made up bullshit. Stop. I know for a fact they teach this shit in jr. high, so it's too much to expect you to understand. But you keep on with this hypothetical situations, and distraction tangents, and fallacies, and imaginary made up bullshit. Stop.

If you refuse to listen, then don't speak. Your willful ignorance is seriously making my head hurt. Stop.

Here is the thing, you keep talking without understanding the implications of what you say. While you never said anything about testing mmr, that is the only thing that would be worth testing if you got riot's code.

We already have access to riot's api. We can see everyone's division and lp. We can see the division and lp of everyone that a player gets matched against. We can see if players are consistently up against higher league players when they are playing promotions. We can already see if matchmaking puts players with higher division or lp in certain conditions.

The only thing that we cannot currently find out without the code is how every player's hidden mmr effects everything. As a result, the only reason we would ever need to see riot's matchmaking is to test MMR related issues.

If you ask for the code, you are either asking because

a) you want to research MMR b) you don't understand what you can already do with the API and therefore are wasting everyone's time

I am not putting words into your mouth. I am just illustrating the implications of what you say, whether or not you even understand those implications.

Oxyrotten3/6/2018, 3:41:04 AM1 votes

Now he wants to be rational... After changing the subject with every post, and insisting he can derive meaning from things other than reality, and thinking his imagination can change science and reason.

I should have known he was just trolling, good grief.

Oxyrotten3/6/2018, 5:28:42 PM1 votes

s5 1179 47 50 b3 1036 ur 40 b1 1135 48 45 b2 1076 60 25 b2 1043 50 47 average = 1099 51 41

b4 973 38 42 b3 962 29 29 b1 1168 49 53 b2 1087 49 50 b2 1067 49 40 average = 1051 42 42

haaaaaaalp3/4/2018, 1:21:38 PM1 votes

If you don't believe riot when they say mmr works like an elo system, then why should they bother showing you the code? You will just say there is no proof the code they are showing is the one that is being implemented server side.

Oxyrotten3/5/2018, 3:20:40 AM1 votes

Team 1: b1 1113k mmr 51%wr 50%l2wr b4 965 mmr 35%wr 58%l2wr b1 1086 mmr 49%wr 45%l2wr b2 1045 mmr 35%wr 50%l2wr b3 948 mmr 44%wr 35%l2wr average = 1031 mmr, 42%wr 47%l2wr

Team 2: b1 1150 mmr 53%wr 50%l2wr b1 1135 mmr 45%wr 50%l2wr b1 1150 mmr 46%wr 53%l2wr s5 1289 mmr 52%wr 68%l2wr b2 1137 mmr 53%wr 42%l2wr average = 1172 mmr, 50%wr 52%l2wr

Take a hard guess which team won.