Senna simply does way too much poke damage

Wasabi Kitty·11/19/2019, 12:41:16 PM·60 votes·15,373 views

Laning against this champion is just absolutely miserable. You are forced to just sit there and eat an absurd amount of damage just for simply thinking about approaching the creep wave.

She has an extremely spammable Q and then the worst offender, SIX HUNDRED BASE RANGE.

Like, what? Why is her STARTING range so unbelievably high? And then it gets even higher as she stacks her passive?

For comparison, Caitlyn has the highest base attack range in the game, at 650. Annie has 625. Anivia and Ashe are at 600 with Senna. Everyone else is lower.

If you want to give her the ability to get stacks and increase her attack range, then she should at least have to work to get to a point where she out ranges other people, instead of having a higher range than 98% of champions at level 1.

Increase her mana costs, and lower her starting range.

87 Comments

5050BS11/19/2019, 4:19:48 PM20 votes

Q range is HUGE and you cant hide from it.

Tokishi11/19/2019, 5:35:32 PM17 votes

I just hate her snare, maybe because I'm not used to it, but feels really hard to dodge and to see.

Buck Strickland11/19/2019, 10:34:56 PM15 votes

Anyone defending her is just wanting free wins. She's broken.

Rochai11/19/2019, 5:23:43 PM13 votes

I totally agree, and those that say, "just all in her after she uses her abilities" everyone seems to also forget that senna gains a percent of her target's movement speed after basic attacking them. so she auot Q's and walks away too fast to catch, this also means the more MS you have the faster she runs out of your range. So buying boots against her helps to make her safer. She also has a root and can go invis with a MS boost to boot.

Her auto animation isnt as slow as everyone pretends it is, its literally like .25 seconds longer than any other ad, which isnt enough time to move into range as any other non-long ranged champ. No one moves 50 units in that time, unless you have a dash, but then yopu just get one auto in and then she heals it back up and damages you more.

Unless you are like zed, kha, or lee or a few others with long distance gap closers you cannot get to her. Also people saying she has mana problems, thats only very early game, with how easy her abilites are to land she can stack mana flow band very quickly and boom her mana problems aren't so bad she also can just run biscuits and top lane goes corrupting pot so she has zero mana issues top. TBH very few champs have actual mana problems past 7-10 minutes now due to runes/items/natural mana regen.

I Like Teemo11/19/2019, 2:12:58 PM13 votes

senna is just over-tuned in every ability. and is completely just a mess of an idea... she has kindreds passive but its easier to stack, and grants infinite ad, lucian's q but with more range and a heal, a hybrid zyra/morgana root. like riot really shit the bed on her

Q should not heal herself if she also heals an ally, nor should it deal on hit items, or be useable on wards/turrets/friendly minions.

W snares for way to long after rank 3 and her scaling is 70% on a basic ability...

R is just stupid... the lux lazer that also shields all team members hit, has 100% ad scaling in damage and has the fastest travel time of any global skill-shot.

Trusting11/19/2019, 5:00:30 PM12 votes

we love point and click poke so much

NaughtyWord11/19/2019, 10:38:46 PM11 votes

OP's right, an infinitely scaling champion has no business being that strong early game. No other infinitely scaling champs are. She's on permaban until her early game is gutted to be in line with other infinitely scaling champs. Veigar Nasus Swain etc.

Garbage OP champs get autobanned.

iiGazeii11/19/2019, 2:32:04 PM9 votes

Her mana costs are already high. If she spams Q, she will run out of mana.

ChaosReyn11/19/2019, 8:24:09 PM9 votes

I think by far my biggest complaint is her Q procing on hits. 600 range, and a passive that gives her more than caitlyn. Whatever, those autos at least have the counterplay of making her stand in one place for far longer than most other adcs and charge the stupid thing. But her Q, which has like one of the longest non-ultimate damaging skillshots in the game (It competes with a fully charged Xerath Q!!) is basically a point and click half-shot on someone since it procs her passive, does its own damage, and procs on hit effects such as DUSKBLADE AND SHEEN. She doesn't need attack speed, she doesn't even need a fucking autoattack animation. She literally presses Q, DESTROYS SOMEONE'S ASSHOLE, and walks into fog of war to reset the duskblade proc while she waits like 6s to do it AGAIN...AND AGAIN...AND AGAIN...

But wait...what if you dont let her, and just try to yeet her? She's AD Xerath right? Ok, sure...except the part where SHE'S AD! At least when Xerath is on cooldown, his right click doesnt take the OTHER half of your hp.

If they removed the on hit proc on her Q, and actually forced her to play like a MARKSMAN, like her DESIGN IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE HER BE, instead of AD fucking Xerath...then it'd be a bit more fair.

R0ses R Red11/19/2019, 1:45:04 PM8 votes

Her base range has to be high because of her slow autoattacks.

Argent Wolf11/19/2019, 2:52:09 PM8 votes

Her Q and other skills are on a long cool down. Force her to use them and then punish her. If you all in her, she dies in 1.5 seconds. If you find yourself in a bad matchup, without a champ that can all in her or some sort of CC, then that's on you and your team. You'll have to play it like you would any bad matchup. Zyra is a great pick against her, as is Leona. You can also pick high mobility ADC and avoid most of her skill shots.
I'm always surprised when I land her W.

ImTheJuggernauty11/19/2019, 6:02:32 PM5 votes

100% agree with OP. I knew this was going to be a problem from the minute I read her passive, but people were like "oh no, she's immobile and if she gets jumped she's dead". Yeah sure. Because she doesn't have INSANE range, doesn't have a STRONG range CC, and DOESN'T have TWO forms of MS to help her poke and run from said insane range. like, she gains fricken 20% of target MS on AAing and has her E plus the MS attached to it. Sure, she's not hypermobile or anything, but she has a FANTASTIC mix of range, damage, and cc lend her an overall strong combo of poke/burst and run. She is incredibly safe.

So yeah, other infinite scaling champs (and she has MULTIPLE FORMS OF INFINITE SCALING, which is ridiculous to say the least) such as sion and cho, have lower base hp for their respective classes, Senna at the very least shouldn't start higher than average for her class in terms of AA range.

KiwiFlavor Ziggs11/19/2019, 11:40:30 PM4 votes

It is to compensate for your auto attack wind-up. It is the longest in the game, as well as having the slowest attack speed in the game. If you have not tried her yet I recommend it as it is incredibly easy to cancel autos with her accidentally. Furthermore, in the time it takes for her auto to wind up, the entire roster of ADC's are able to close the ~50 range difference and auto her by the time hers even registers.

I'm not sure what champion you are playing where you feel her poke, as opposed to things like Brand, Lux, Zyra, Veigar, Xerath, Brand, Morgana, Fiddlesticks, Swain (need I go on) can attack from farther and do much higher burst damage, some have kill potential at level 2 where Senna's base damage is so low she simply does not.

Her mana costs are considerably high, when I play her I often go oom and the damage to mana ratio is so low it is not even close to the damage supports I usually play, not to mention her utility ability that does absolutely no damage even costs mana.

I understand people are having trouble with her W because it hits from so far but it is the typical "run straight line from a falling tree". It is one of the slowest projectiles in the game, and if you cannot dodge that (that is stopped by minions) I assume if the enemy was instead a Lux, Zyra, Morgana who all have superior, faster straight lnie roots - that you'd be rooted and killed instantly whereas Senna's weak base damage will just take a portion of your health early game.

Finally - Senna's counter is all-in champions. Play a hook champ and you get free kills for the rest of the game. Unlike the damage supports recently mentioned that may even have kill potential on you if you hook them (albeit usually die in the process), Senna can do absolutely nothing to you besides sneeze a 40 damage laser onto you. Senna is probably one of the most balanced on-release new champions I have seen from Riot in a long, long, LONG time and while she may need minor tweaks to scaling as she outscales marksman with gold, none of issues here are real.

Anime Fizz11/20/2019, 6:12:31 AM4 votes

Her starting range needs to go down to 525 or 550, personally i say 525 (she woudlnt be weak enough at 550) because just like tristana, shes supposed to be weak early game for her infinite scaling.

Its absurd that she has ashe range at lvl 1 as a supposed infinite scaling champ, its like if they made veigar or nasus a lane bully, it would be stupid as hell.

Saezio11/20/2019, 2:06:17 PM3 votes

Senna autos should not be able to be canceled. Like Kalista. Fits thematically and would make her "slow" autos actually matter.

Luminev11/20/2019, 7:51:24 PM3 votes

Her Q has a high mana cost and high cd if she doesn't get enough autos in to reduce it's cd. She can feel really oppressive in her good matchups but she struggles in her bad ones a lot. She's technically getting a nerf for preseason with the removal of mana regen on the base support item, so her powerspikes will be delayed. So hopefully that helps tone her down. However regardless most people seem to think her Q's damage is the issue, when it's not. Her Q damage isn't actually very powerful and it's coming from a very overlooked part of her passive, which does way to much damage. While it scales slower than Zed's she can deal 1-16% current health damage with her passive. Which is ridiculous amounts of free manaless damage. Just for reference Zed does 6-10% once on low health enemies every now and then. Every time Senna can harvest a ghoul from a target, she can deal an extra 1-16% just because. Without that she wouldn't have the insane oppressive damage she feels like she has now. While I don't feel like it needs to be completely removed it definitely needs to be toned down by a good chunk.

Baby Ghoul11/20/2019, 4:46:55 AM3 votes

Agreed, I do think her poke damage is way too much, but in terms of poke supports she's the least oppressive to play against. Xerath Velkoz Fiddlesticks Zyra

She's one of the least obnoxious poke supports in my opinion, but that isn't saying too much. They all need to be toned down.

Still, at least with Senna she's weak to all-in champions like Leona or Nautilus . A big problem with bot lane right now is that so many hitboxes are way bigger than what is visually telegraphed. I've had so many hooks and Morgana Q's completely miss me and have been locked down anyways. That pisses me off so much more.

There's so many problems with supports in general right now that I do hope that it is a focus of preseason. I'd really like them to address the mage question and tone done damage in general, not just Senna 's. I'm so tired of item 3303 players being able to spam spells. Ideally I'd like them to do something about camping too, but they seem to be going in the exact opposite direction there...

Support Position11/20/2019, 6:54:46 AM3 votes

Morgana Press E. Walk at her. Q. W. Dead.

Maokai W. E finds her through mist. Q. Dead.

Leona E. W Q. Dead to adc.

Lux Q auto E R dead.

Pyke Thanks for the extra gold.

Fiddlesticks E finds her in E.

Sorry to say but you just suck at learning and adapting for counterplay.

Morrhen11/20/2019, 4:50:07 PM3 votes

Playing against Senna can be a nightmare if you have wrong kind of a team. However, Senna completely melts when faces against mobile assassins or tank supports. Nautilus and Leona have been especially useful against her.

Yes, she has a very long range. WHICH upgrades over time. On the flip side, you don't see people going defensive on her. Because you really can't afford to go defensive. You go for more armor/mr7Hp and your damage drops. If your damage drops, you heal less, deal less damage and esentially become useful for snaring groups and making people unclickable.

HOWEVER. Senna deserves nerfs to SOLIDIFY her as support. Instead of people abusing a newly released champ to play her in top/mid.

A) Leave the AD and Range alone. However, instead, nerf her crits from 15 to 10. Additionally, remove the Lifesteal part. Her passive is already overloaded with power.

B) Nerf the damage on her Q. Buff the healing. Furthemore, make it more rewarding to play AP Senna with increased ratios on her abilities which reward healing, instead of damage.

C) Her snare effect is pretty damn fair, in my opinion. It's no Morgana Q. It's delayed, its very slow and can be dodged easily.

D) Her E is alright. It's probably what makes this champion work. But duration could be decreased by 1 second.

E) As compensation for changes, buff her ultimate AP ratio. So people actually have REASON to build her in a diverse way and use her ult to protect their allies. Instead of using it as weaker Lux ult.

G0blinSlay3r11/20/2019, 6:33:52 AM2 votes

Who came up with this champ? [slayer-jinx-unamused]

NTrumpWeTrust11/20/2019, 2:22:30 PM2 votes

Her current lane presence is pretty mediocre compared to the top supports RN who can all in you at level 2 and snowball a game from there. Without poke, her lane presence becomes non existent. Her peel is shit, and she dies instantly if you get on top of her. She has to do something. Poke will always be annoying, but she's no less annoying than Janna spamming W on you with guaranteed comet procs. Engage supports engage, poke supports poke. It's just way more noticeable when poke supports are doing their job because it's annoying af.

Sir Inugami11/20/2019, 3:04:29 PM1 votes

Oh I'm full with you, even if I think Senna is a bit on the weak side. Let's look at this objectively

Kindred Gains +75 Range at 4 Stacks and +25 more every 3 after that, and starts with a base Attack Range of 500. KogMaw Gains +100-210 Range for 8 Seconds, starts with a base Attack Range of 500. Twitch Gains +300 Range for 4 Seconds, starts with a base Attack Range of 500.

Senna ... 600. Despite having an infinitely scaling Attack Range and despite it being ten times easier to farm than Kindred's -- her base Attack Range is 600.

I think it's because Riot doesn't set bench marks. They don't care much about counterplay. One could argue that Senna needs that base range because she stands still for 0.5s whenever she autoattacks -- but she's already compensated for that by gaining a large burst of MS after attacking something.