Kindred Players! Regarding the mini-rework RiotRepertoir mentioned for kindred 2 months ago.

Scream Engineer·6/6/2018, 8:56:36 PM·37 votes·15,053 views

#Post #2 here

https://i.imgur.com/O6vqgQo.png

About 2 months ago RiotRepertoir posted this, talking about how they were thinking of doing some changes to Kindred but needed to see more enthusiasm and ideas from the kindred community before committing to the workload. Now is the perfect time to start posting our ideas and showing Riot that we want our favorite duo to feel fun to play again. Especially with the current jungle iteration and Kindred's drop in win-rate by 4%.

If we felt more confident there was a specific kind of work that would be exciting to Kindred players as well as a pretty clear path forward, that would increase the likelihood we would take on the work.

https://i.imgur.com/hTAKolI.png

I'll be posting a sister post to this one later today or tomorrow with some Kindred change ideas. I'll put a link in here for anyone who wants to see it.

https://i.imgur.com/38z0Ciw.png

EDIT 1: I created a survey for the balance and feel of the character to get more information on the sister post i talked about. You can find the survey here

EDIT 2: I have created an auto-updating spreadsheet for the survey. It can be found here.

EDIT 3: Post #2 is up! Can be found here

44 Comments

Itirpon6/7/2018, 2:31:35 AM9 votes

200k bronze trashcan who never dreamt Kindred OTP would happen to him reporting in.

I'm naturally resistant to wanting to see Kindred be buffed because I don't want any competition in champ select. [slayer-jinx-wink]

That aside, a few tweaks that come to mind might be nice.

Q: Be a little more forgiving over walls. Talon and Kayn are zipping over terrain all of the time without worry, but if I'm not right on the sweet spot pixel and have my mouse cursor just right I flip nowhere and probably die.

W: Let recasting W be a means of commanding Wolf where to go or whom to attack. It's heartbreaking to see Ashe at 1% HP, running away (Wolf's supposed to get excited about people running away, remember?), and Wolf decides to bite a caster minion because I guess it waving that wand made him think it was time to play fetch. Likewise, his utility as vision is hindered by his brush logic. For a champion so fragile as Lamb is, sending Wolf ahead makes a lot of sense, especially when trying for a camp mark usually means you just die because somehow they know which camp you're after.

Aside: Enemies shouldn't see the camp marks on their map till they're reconnoitered. Right now it's a free kill beacon (or, a Kindred's choosing to fall behind by not bothering beacon), yet jungle camps in general appear to be there after they're taken till they're observed to be empty. Let the enemy laners check on their own krugs and gromps once in a while to see if a camp is marked or not; if they find a marked camp they can clear it or ward it, so really this change would encourage better, less lazy, gameplay in players opposing a Kindred jungle.

E: Maybe it's my bronze speaking, but Mounting Dread feels awful. Usually it's just a bad soft CC (at least Glacial Augment lasts two seconds) because I don't have the brain power to figure out exactly when casting it will result in my having time to stack it to three and do so right when the enemy HP will be under threshold and to see Wolf's pounce do enough damage to get a kill. If my enemy dies on the second count, it was pointless. Worse, the threshold scales by crit chance, and if you're building crit (on a jungle budget, no less), that makes estimating the right amout of HP to start Mounting Dread into guessing since unless you're at 100% crit chance, maybe you'll double crit and didn't need MD or maybe not and you'll come up short. I think MD's currently backwards: The automatic crit threshold should scale on marks (more marks would mean more opportunity for Wolf to attack meaningfully) and the crit chance scaling should instead increase the missing-health-based bonus damage at some ratio so that Wolf's MD attack being an automatic crit isn't redundant against built crit chance. This would make the expensive crit items a way to make MD reliably lethal and worth maxing second sometimes instead of being a minor CC one point wonder.

R: If R could be recast to dismiss the circle Kindred would have a tactical advantage and that would discourage "everybody get in" behaviors when the enemy knows they get a free kill on the count of four because when the circle expires, they're still not-Kindred and thus duel better unless Kindred not only ulted but also has a ready Challening Smite and Q's up and hopefully can put exactly two stacks of MD on somebody and then maybe Kindred will outduel one of the however many enemies standing in the buffet line awaiting their serving of mutton. If Kindred can dismiss the circle at will, enemies who want to fight in the circle have a prediction/reaction time challenge to overcome.

And one other thing: When an enemy takes a jungle mark, they should carry the mark themselves for a little while, giving Kindred a chance at punishing them for overstepping. That way instead of just stomping Kindred's marks they take on a small risk of giving it up anyway along with their life if they're not mindful.

sweetrules6/6/2018, 9:00:58 PM8 votes

The last couple of patches have pushed Kindred even further to the wayside, so they definitely need something to help them out.

KindDread6/7/2018, 12:17:47 AM6 votes

This is the opinion of a 1,500,000 mastery point diamond Kindred main who fell in love with Kindred on release, Kindred right now is in their worst spot they have ever been in. I am not talking about win rates or how they work in the meta, I am talking about what really matters, How fun playing Kindred is, and right now they are not fun at all. Kindred went through two events that i dont think Riot really grasped how those two would affect Kindred together. One is the nerf to Kindred's armor and hop CD scaling with Q rank. This change alone was a very good idea to tone down Kindred's early game power, which was really oppressive at the time. The armor nerf didn't affect Kindred's HP while clearing, because they kite the camps but it did make their dueling weaker so they had to pick fights better. Then we have the other event, The change to the mark system to where Kindred's mark now scale their auto range and abilities. Kindred's abilities scaling off marks was a really good idea to where now kindred has to have marks to scale at all. The auto range change was weird but didn't really matter because with their abilities scaling off marks now, it was still the same as before so nothing really changed about Kindred, right? Wrong, because Kindred now starts with only a measly 500 auto range. These two changes together now leave Kindred with 500 auto range, 4 second hop CD, and no armor.

This post is gonna be pretty long but i wanted to clarify that i'm not just crying for buffs but have no idea whats wrong, i'm not just a bronze trashcan ranting about why i lost my silver promos to my team again. I'm not hoping riot makes them OP and Kindred is META pick easy wins. I'm hoping riot will use some of this to make Kindred what they should be, fun, because Kindred is not that right now.

Before i get into any suggested changes, i wanna share my vision of Kindred, to ensure i am as crystal clear as possible. After all, what i want from Kindred might not be what everyone wants. These are just my thoughts and what i feel the duo grim reaper of the rift is lacking.

Kindred should be a self reliant Marksmen jungler, that has the skirmishing potential to be able to contest their marks, in order to scale into the late game. Kindred should have to have marks in order to scale.If Kindred does not have marks, they will severely be lacking in the damage aspect. They can still offer utility through their ultimate and through playing safe and making smart decisions with their ultimate, get back in the game. A Kindred that has been playing good from the beginning and gets a early lead, should be able to start collecting marks at a very fast rate if no one is smart enough to deal with them and eventually, become a monster. Now current Kindred does have most of this in some shape or form. Kindred being able to send wolf out allows for them to get vision, their abilities scale off marks, and their ultimate is a thing of beauty but ill go over that later. So the core game play of Kindred is already there, Riot just needs to tweak it like most champions need, but for some reason has failed to do so, so here i am with a helping hand to address the problems i have stated thus far.

Fair warning i will not have strict numbers on any of these, as without being able to test it, i have no idea what would be OP or not. I will give vague ideas that Riot can work on to see if its OP or not. I would love to get in a discussion about what would work and what wouldn't though, because i have been playing Kindred for a long time now and i will never be forgetting my time playing as Kindred.

  • Changing the mark system: First thing that needs to be changed is Kindred's auto range scaling with marks. You can only feel the effects of this mechanic when you have at least 10 marks. Till then you basically only have normal range and the main pressing issue with this mechanic is it guts Kindred's early game. Kindred's kit feels horrible to play with 500 range, the only way 500 range works is if you give Kindred back a 2 second hop CD and make them like a Kalista early game. Which has already been proven it doesn't work, as it becomes too oppressive against melee junglers (everyone). You could also give Kindred SO much damage that it doesn't matter that they don't have mobility or defensive stats (which i guess is what you are going for since those are the "buffs" you have on the PBE currently), but Kindred is still gonna feel horrible strictly cause of the 500 range and i can guarantee you its gonna get reverted or nerfed even harder. I suggest just make it to where they have a normal range (550, 575, 525 if you give them a lot of damage) and make the marks give some kind of damage on hit. Also scale their abilities even more into the mark side to where they do little damage without them and big damage with them.

  • How marks are seen: I never quite understood from a game stand point AND lore stand point why Kindred's marks are seen by everyone AT THE SAME TIME. Yes i agree the enemy should be able to see the marks because the person is marked for death but i think a super easy fix to Kindred is just to make it to where the enemy doesn't see the mark till it's fully done cooking (i guess?) on champions, and give the jungle marks the same kind of mechanic, to where only Kindred sees its about to mark. Then when it actually marks the enemy sees it to. This allows for Kindred to prepare marks and will mark Kindred WAY less feast or famine. The very way marks works is just downright weird in every aspect, the current marks are feast or famine the mechanic. Like a mark spawns, you are either strong enough to take it or your behind and you can't get it. Not even including the heavy RNG that comes with it. With the new marks even if your behind or just the same, you can still ward up or try and gank the lane closest to where it's spawning to try and swing the odds in your favor. Marks with how they are now are a flawed mechanic and just downright not fun.

  • Make Kindred feel like a duo: Don't really need to point out how little wolf does in Kindred's kit but here are some fixes. 300 IQ super easy fix is to just make wolf smarter. If you made wolf follow targets in bushes, he would at least not be seen as the dumb dog the game play makes him. Some more stuff you can do to the W is make wolf always auto things that are really close to you, but activating W makes him go out and do what he normally does doing more damage the the W passive. You can make the E to where if the W is active, Each of the two autos leading up to the third one has wolf maims them and slows them(could leave it as the current maim where he slows attack speed too, probably OP though). Making wolf always attack but making W active do more makes it to where wolf is always with you and he would actually always help, which would make him feel like less of a sidekick. Also adding some kind of interaction with wolf with the three hit E would help too, don't have to use what i stated, just something that could work.(BTW lamb doing physical and wolf doing magical is a pretty good idea to make them feel different but the same, so dont change that)

  • Kindred's Ultimate: Finally the ultimate and how NOTHING SHOULD CHANGE ABOUT IT. Reading on the Kindred Reddit about how Kindred's ultimate should be changed triggers me to no end. After all this thought i could not come up with a single ultimate idea that beat the current one, without it being OP. Kindred needs some form of utility to be a self reliant Marksmen jungler but having it not on the ultimate would be weird for many reasons. Kindred's ultimate is the best thing about Kindred in terms of what a jungler needs or just its super fun. I could go on for hours about how Kindred's ultimate has infinite value but isn't OP strictly for how awkward it is to use. I can agree it does not fit Kindred lore wise but at this point i would argue it is a iconic ability that Kindred is known for having.

This turned out quite a bit longer that i intended and im sorry for the wall of text. It's just that I played league of Legends for quite awhile before Kindred was released and never really fell in love with any of the champions but when Kindred came out they were all i could play. I only ended up reaching diamond because i wanted to see how high i could go with Kindred. I never cared that i would have people flame me for picking a "troll champ" and end up intentionally feeding. I was playing Kindred because I had a blast doing so. I have been playing Pyke now non stop because after trying him out for the heck of it, I had a absolute blast playing him and im hoping Kindred can one day be as fun as they were back then(please no more 500 range).

PopcornBunni6/7/2018, 2:33:58 AM3 votes

I wish the two felt more like controling two halves of a character. Currently it feels too much like Lamb + an idiot AI that marks the worst camps at all times and doesn't know how to target enemies in a fight.

Wolf can keep doing his own marks as a thing, but it would be nice if it felt like there was more influence over it. Something like a preference to mark a camp on the same half of the map they are on if that mark is possible. It would give Kindred more information if the enemy raptors get marked when Kindred is on your team's Krugs (since that mark is shared with the preferred Gromp which can't be marked when it's dead), but in the same vein, it can work against them telling the enemy which side of the jungle they're on when a mark comes up on that side. The net gain of information would be power neutral, but it would make for a more cohesive gameplay and character mesh.

Similarly to make the two feel more like two halves in combat, have recast W move Wolf in its radius and direct attacks (maybe reduce radius and increase cast range as compensation)

My final gripe is that E feels horrible when the final hit doesn't go through. Landing the ability, though admitedly a point-click, should have some kind of reward attached. Instead it's ability that strikes the enemy with Wolf doing... no damage but slowing them for some reason. Have some of its damage put up front when casting the ability so it doesn't feel like such a waste if the final hit doesn't connect. Specifically, have the flat damage (80/100/120/140/160 +80% bAD) be dealt in part up front. Maybe 75% of it: 60/75/90/105/120 + 60% AD damage upon casting it, then the last of three autos doing 20/25/30/35/40 + 20% bAD + 8% (+ marks) missing health as bonus damage on that third auto.

Rouxful6/6/2018, 9:34:24 PM2 votes

so I can find the sister post tomorrow

Wínters Dawn6/7/2018, 3:04:38 AM2 votes

I think id be okay with most changes as long as kindred was given the base 550 range or the scaling range stays. I love kindred but her range before her rework drove me crazy.

BLACK REALM GOD6/7/2018, 11:01:01 PM2 votes

kindred to me has a few issues.

1 she cant control who her Q hits. 2 she cant control who her W hits. 3 she cant control who her R hits. 4 she cant control her passive. 5 allies cant see who you've marked clearly enough.

for a champion left with the ability to decide something as huge as life and death it would seem she's relying on a whole lot of rng.

OmmetaPhobia6/7/2018, 6:20:42 AM1 votes

Would it be too broken giving her the old W passive? I really miss that thing (even tho its fleet footwork) [sg-janna]

Cerbearus6/7/2018, 8:22:55 AM1 votes

Her stacks feel really weak when you aren't getting extra range (I preferred the old %current hp on hit) but I love the mechanic of getting extra range through a quest like her stacks (not something dumb like trist getting range for leveling up). Loading more power into her passive I feel could help her a lot. It is her defining mechanic but right now I hardly even notice stacks outside of 4/7/10. Maybe instead of giving a bunch of small buffs per stack give one good one per stack (think bard chimes). Dash distance on Q, # arrows on Q, radius of W, enhanced effect of E are some things I can think of.

Q is probably her most fun ability, but feels very weak later in the game. The scaling is very weak, the dash is extremely short (unforgiving trying to get over walls) and without her W being active has a very long CD for such a weak dash. I say let it proc on-hit effects on all bolts and give it an AP scaling (nashors/guinsoo). The interaction with her W makes the ability pretty useless with W on CD or when you have to leave the field. Also make it acquire targets from both the start and end of the dash to help with killing jungle camps (if you are at max AA range hitting a monster and you dash even slightly away you will not get the damage from your Q)

The W is so meh (not to mention buggy as hell) and doesn't feel impactful at all. It can wrack up damage over time but no enemy is going to stand there and let wolf hit them for 10 seconds. A way to move the field needs to exist (tied to her E?). Maybe a radius increase would help too.

Wolf needs to be a bigger part of her kit. Change her E completely honestly. Make wolf do something like mark enemies for a debuff/extra damage/cc or something (wouldn't mind it being a skillshot). Wolf chasing down low health targets should be represented in her kit somehow.

Her ult is weird because it can be so incredibly impactful, whether for good or worse. It is useless in a 1v1 situation because almost every single champion in the game has more burst than Kindred for the end of the ult. My vote is to completely change it. Make it reaper/death related, because right now it feels like the opposite of her theme. It needs to be about hunting/executing low health targets. Maybe having different effects based on the direction the enemy is facing (lamb based when facing her, wolf based when facing/running away)?

Crit feels so awful in her kit. If you build her anything else she feels very weak (they built crit into her E) and even when building crit she feels very weak compared to other ADCs. She doesn't have the income to afford the new crit build at all unless she gets really ahead. She feels best when built as a duelist who can kite melees then chase them down with quick autos and frequent jumps. Also wailing on 3 tanks with runaans is a ton of fun too (but the crit version of runaan feels so awful for building on-hit).

CarameI Frappe6/7/2018, 9:44:39 AM1 votes

Since Kindred (Lamb and Wolf) are basically death, I always thought one of Lamb's ability was to launch Wolf at a fleeing target and have Wolf slowly pull a champion to them. It would be like a Thresh hook / Blitz hook, but the enemy will be dragged to Kindred slowly. It's symbolic for the champion struggling to escape death, but of course, death will eventually catch up to you.

[sg-ezreal]

R3M0T3C0NTR0L6/7/2018, 2:17:08 PM1 votes

In regards to the camp marks, I would like to hide the marks from the enemy until they have visibility of the camp. The way that it is right now feels like Kindred is announcing to everyone where she will be attempting to invade. There's many a times that the mark pops on the raptors and a ward gets put down from mid. With it hidden it will give a bit of security at the start of a mark and increase the risk the longer the mark is up.

Swiff Swish6/7/2018, 6:45:39 PM1 votes

I enjoy playing kindred and I remember the old post of how they go the idea of making kindred. The idea of the yin/yang, The wolf and the lamb right? I still don't feel like the yin and the yang are present enough. Maybe the relationship between the wolf and the lamb should be more aggressive, but at the same time, they fight together because they would die. I really like the idea of her bow, But I feel like it just isn't to strong for anything. Things I think they should not change is her ultimate and her passive ability. I don't think they should change her ultimate because its so unique out of everything I have seen in League of legends and allows the lamb to get even with a champion she was losing with, basically turning the battle around. Her passive makes so much sense to the "hunter" like lore, so it really shouldn't be changed. I think what should be changed is her Q ability and her E ability. Her Q doesn't feel right, and doesn't really show off the lamb. If you are gonna have a yin and yang feel. two abilities should be the lamb and two abilities should be the wolf. Her Q is pretty much the only ability (you can kinda count her R I guess) the lamb has. Her Q needs to be changed because I feel like her bow should be a much more important aspect of her character, she is a hunter after all. To conclude, the wolf needs to have more of a presence. When you play with Kindred, the wolf is most of the time beside her but not doing anything, shouldn't the wold have something passively happening?? I don't know, just some opinion from my perspective. I very much love Kindred, and I would love a slight change with her. Just nothing to costly pls Riot.

the weeaboo6/7/2018, 7:19:07 PM1 votes

Well i dont know about you guys but I literally haven't been able to play Kindred since Kai'Sa came out because apparently trying to load into agame with them makes me Bugsplat. Really fun being locked out of one of my mains.

Ariel the Cruel6/7/2018, 10:39:22 PM1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/tcA8KJow-another-kindred-rework-idea Bit more than a mini re-work. But it seemed to be well received when it was posted.

As far as "mini-rework" scale, the best thing they could probably do (in my opinion) is to remove their passive. I love the concept, but locking a hyper scaling champion behind a need for early dominance is just bad design. As long as it persists, Kindred is always going to create problems. Especially if Riot wants to force jungle interactions like they are with scuttle crab.

SanKakU6/8/2018, 3:29:25 AM1 votes

What if Kindred got an ability where the lamb would hold still while the wolf gets controlled by the player, can maybe also go through terrain and then the lamb could teleport to the wolf's location? Kind of like Leoric's ability from HotS, or the Protoss Adepts in Starcraft 2. Would allow Kindred to infiltrate the jungle to get to their marks or something like that.

Battalion6/6/2018, 11:20:28 PM1 votes

I've been asking and posting about rework ideas, skin ideas, etc. just trying to raise awareness that there's a champion with loads of potential being ignored for well over a year now. I'm a kindred one trick and there's a community of those, however they are far and few between. We've been able to cope through the highs and lows, though it would be fair to say that Kindred players need to put in much more effort to get the same results as other junglers.

I hope they do not destroy the champion identity of Kindred as a hunter type, but they definitely need some attention in the way of dueling and roaming. If Riot could give kindred +20 base movement speed to be in the same speed tier (345) as champions such as Graves instead of where they are right now (the move-speed tier of Anivia & Lissandra), as well as maybe increased damage based on marks on marked targets that'd be great.

Vhadros6/7/2018, 1:05:02 AM1 votes

Honestly, Kindred is fine for me right now. I just wish they'd do some slight changes to the jungle marks. For instance, have it have a delay for the enemy to see the mark, giving you enough time to get there and take it before they do. That'd be a good change.

Zeppelins circus6/7/2018, 1:11:23 AM1 votes

Honestly, I feel Kindred's largest mistake was for them to be dps based. The concept of death on pursuit never fits if you play like a "practical adc that happens to be able to jungle".

Give us a "WE HAVE COME FOR YOU" sense of feeling on her ult like noctune, rengar and you can fullfill this. Her current ult makes no sense whatsoever at all to her theme and it is a constantly debated matter.

BADWOLF95476/7/2018, 1:14:08 AM1 votes

Honestly if losing a couple of marks was not a death sentence. She is also a hard stuck jungler since her passive requires her to get marks. I would love to see her played in top lane or even as a mini adc. Kindred

Hyquiem6/7/2018, 2:34:11 AM1 votes

He’s a big fat ugly lier. He promised azir mains an azir rework and ryze a ryze rework and both are iceboxed!

IcyPepper6/7/2018, 2:43:12 AM1 votes

Do you like their mark's giving the enemy team perfect information?

A bit biased question there. Generally, in a poll or survey, you don't want to lead people one way or another. There's ways to word that in a less biased manner.