Jhin is a masterpiece

PerfectFour·Feb 3, 2016·77 votes·6,990 views

So i finally played like 10 games so far with him and i have to say that everything about him is truly the definiton of great champion-design

You start the game with him and he either starts with a stylish quote or he starts to whistle with the music in the background. you get those sniper vibes you know?

every ability feels so well reasoned and the moment you ult, especially with the high noon skin you feel like "showtime baby" and then you either miss every shot (and its okay though because his ult isnt that easy and needs a bit of practice) or kill someone while it feels soooo satisfying. Like BAM. And then the passive flower goes off with a finishing sound. There, beautiful.

i could continue forever with things i like about him but there is no need, because everything is perfect.

gypsy, you designed and now

you just KNOW how to make a champion feel rewarding and super entertaining.

Thank you.

116 Comments

OrangesilkFeb 3, 20169 votes

I absolutely, completely, entirely disagree with you, and Gypsy is as far as I'm concerned the -blandest- champion designer ever.

Jhin has almost no imagination or creativity in his kit.

Q: Fiddlesticks E. W: Jinx W (but it has longer range and goes through minions, OOOH). E: Caitlyn Teemo Shaco Nidalee (We've seen traps before, give us -something- new). R: Xerath (But it's a skillshot, not an AoE, OOOH).

Really really uninspired champion, the only interesting thing about him is his passive and it's basically a stat-modifier, that's his main gameplay defining trait, that his stats work differently, and that just screams bad design to me, it doesn't live up to the hype of the "Artsy killer" much like Ekkos AoE nuke + heal doesn't live up to the "Turn-back time" fantasy.

Let's look at recently released champions and how they all bring something NEW and ORIGINAL to the game (with the exception of Ekko and Jhin, ofc):

Azir This guy is one of the most interesting game-changers ever, and a really polemic champion: Aside from the whole soldier shtick, which was really really new and innovative, this guy here makes turrets and creates truly impassable terrain, his kit is an actual masterpiece of design and originality.

Kalista This girl here has one of the most interesting passives ever, it defines her, she's the girl that hops around. But it's not about her passive, it's about how she forms this connection (evil pact) with her support, the whole idea of throwing someone at people, enhancing your AAs off the support AAs, it really is something new, she really really made the duo lane something different.

RekSai The whole idea of blind underground champion was interesting, add in the fact of her semi-permanent tunnels, semi-global presence. She really does embody that "underground predator" feel, she lives up to the fantasy. Even playing against her, you just walk around knowing she could scream and spring from a tunnel out of nowhere, really nice kit, really original too.

Bard Ooh boy, where do we start on Bard. He has plenty of innovation in his kit, with magical journey being one of the most interesting skills ever, and his ult being one of the first instances in the game where your teammate can actually, directly, fuck you over. The idea of an infinitely scaling roaming support might sound weird, but he pulled it off nicely, and the satisfaction of roaming, getting an assist mid and a couple of chimes is something else.

TahmKench This guy here is really polemic, I for once love what he brings to the rift: Teleporting an ally across the map is an extremely interesting innovative play (which is why Riot has to keep it rather undertuned) Devouring an ally or an enemy really brings across the concept of the "Big mouth" champ, and it's something we'd never seen before, overall, even his grey health bar, which might look like his most bland and uninnovative mechanic, is actually an interesting concept that makes you choose between a shield now or sustain later.

Kindred This isn't my favorite example of design but she's interesting. Overall I'd say she failed to embody her fantasy as a dual champion (much like Ekko and Jhin, you'd think she was designed by Gypsy too) And her kit is a convoluted mess without much originality in it. But the whole counterjungling stack thing, and her insanely dangerous ult (similar to a Bard ult) at least bring some new mechanics and dynamics to the rift.

Illaoi This girl here is actually very interesting, sadly kept weak due to her status as the ultimate bronze stomper. The whole concept of "ripping your soul" was innovative enough, we'd never had an ability that punished you by annoying you for a whole 60 secs, but it's really something we'd never seen before. Combined with the whole tentacle thing, that while not being 100% original (makes you think of Heimer and Azir) it really brings a feeling of freshness to the rift.

ZydronFeb 3, 20169 votes

I respectfully disagree, you can't just say his abilities are exactly the same as other champions, it is the kit as a whole that defines it. Just because you can draw parallels between 2 abilities doesn't make them the same

OrangesilkFeb 3, 20163 votes

But his kit as a whole is just as bland and unninovative, there's nothing about his kit that brings on a new dimension of gameplay:

He, like all ADCs, shoots at things when he can (with different stat interactions, whatever), tries to not get hit by stuff, defends against people who jump him and then finishes off distant targets with his ult. Draven Jinx Ezreal . What exactly in his kit makes him in any way innovative if all his abilities are cardboard cutouts from other champions and his gameplay is basically identical.

VentusDragoonFeb 3, 20164 votes

You say that, but everything except the ult are literally things that EVERY champion in league of legends has. You harass, you try not to get harassed, you try to keep from getting ganked or overwhelmed. That's literally just mechanics in a MOBA, not a "bland" trait in ADC's.

The WhamboozlerFeb 3, 20165 votes

Apparently he wants an adc who mixes things up. Well most adcs hang back, auto attack and kite, so we need one who does.

This new adc needs to feel fresh, so instead of hanging back, he'll dive in hard and fight. Instead of kiting he'll be aggressive and try to keep the enemy from fleeing HIM. Instead of ranged attacks, he'll use melee ones, and instead of a ult to pick people off, we'll give him one that prevents his enemy's team from jumping him while he brings down his target.

Congratulations... you have just created XinZhao . Enjoy your fresh and innovative new take on ADC's. He does their job in ways that are NOTHING like all those awful adc mechanics you hate.

KillerKellFeb 4, 20163 votes

I got it.

We'll do a new ADC.

He'll scale with Armor and HP.

Have a kit full of CC.

And be Melee Ranged.

Pretty innovative for an ADC, right? Nothing like those other bland ADC's.

Almost forgot. Only deals True Damage.

The WhamboozlerFeb 4, 20161 votes

For a minute there you were describing TahmKench . lol

iamthegoatofwarFeb 3, 201615 votes

Q- scales in damage as it kills a unit and from what i understand won't bounce back and forth between 2 targets, and also doesn't silence them. W-ok i kinda agree here. got no valid argument someone else give it a go. E-Sets invisible traps that create a slow zone THEN explode for damage while giving vision. R- Don't even compare it to xerath...just stop. Also his passive is fairly unique.

OrangesilkFeb 3, 20167 votes

But those things you mentioned are -slight- differences between the abilties (Xeraths ult is virtually the same as Jhins ult), not really kit-defining traits.

If I were to design a champion that went like:

"He's like Cho, but his Q has a longer delay and it stuns. His W doesn't silence but it snares, his E isn't an on-hit but damage over time, and his R is a short range linear skillshot" Would you call him an innovative champion?.

iamthegoatofwarFeb 3, 20166 votes

hmmm you know it could be intresting...Depends on the numbers and what his role is I'd like to see how that plays out.

OrangesilkFeb 3, 20168 votes

I can't even... you win this one.

iamthegoatofwarFeb 3, 20162 votes

Zorae42Feb 3, 201621 votes

You do realize Lux and Morg have pretty similar basic kits right?

Q: Linear skillshot that roots W: Shield usable on allies and self E: AE dmg

And yet they're completely different champs with completely different gameplay.

GrReaper96Feb 3, 20165 votes

But Morg shield is on E (illuminati confirmed)

Rundus1Feb 4, 20163 votes

Now I must kindly disagree with you.

With all of those discrepancies, you leave a lot of room for interpretation. How like Cho's abilities are they? Is it a stunning Karthus skittle? Is it a Leona ult with a bigger stun spot? Is its delay before or after cast? How is it cast? Range? etc. These aspects can be tweaked to make it unique. Comparing Jhin q to fid e just bc they do damage and bounce is like Comparing Cho q to Leo ult bc they both have a delay and cc an enemy from a distance.

The W snare sounds a lot like Zyra Snare, but in an instant cone. Annie w mayhaps (when she stuns but this is a snare)? Either way, too strong with the stun unless he gets little damage and is forced to be a tank. Potential is there, but balance would dictate it would be a pitiful root or get a delay. Either way, it will depend on the rest of the kit and champ design, visuals, and VO to determine if it works.

The Dot E is interesting. How is this applied? Is he ranged or melee? What is is auto range? What does the Dot scale with? How much damage? How long does it burn? Is it a Udyr q or is it more teemo-aute-esq? Is it full on Malz aids in an auto? While this isn't a new idea, it can certainly still be fresh if implemented correctly. On your champ I'd be wary of this ability. If it scales well you may have a bit strong of a champ with all that cc and potential damage.

Now the ult. By far the most interesting thing here. How short is this skillshot? Hitbox? What does it do exactly? Is it true damage, or does it share the HP gain on kill? If he shoots out a thing that siphons the life of an enemy to cause growth, that'd be interesting (maybe it gives stacking Armor/MR instead of HP for originality though). Most importantly, what is this champion's theme?

Without the theme, we cannot make any calls. Additionally, I need to hear the VO to pass judgements for potentially well-made and innovative designs. The kit is not the champion. For instance, you could pin Kindred's kit on a monk with his dog and some artifact bow and he'd do fine, but you can't pin the Kindred VO on some random kit and say "This is Kindred." That makes a bad champ out of potentially good themes and kits. The whole aspect of the champ's innovative potential is more than "look! New mechanic!" It's also "New execution of a mechanic" and "New outlook on the game." Jhin provides some of all three of these things (and a heck of a lot of the 3rd one, which kinda carries the others a bit). His q's damage stacking is new. His passive scaling is new (although stat-shifting itself isn't (hi Vladimir )), his uncanny range on w is unique, but it's ability to function as conditional super-long-range non-ult hard cc for any ally while dealing good damage is semi-new (seeing as Jinx's is much shorter-ranged, soft cc) and very new in execution for hard CC in an instant, his ult zooming out and scaling its skillshot-based executing linear quad-shot Xerath-Cait Hybrid shots is kinda new, but definitely new in execution and his traps (srry I went out of order) are the first to delay their own damage, while also allowing for situational damage, cc, and a constant source of vision. Sure, we have traps, but their execution on Jhin is pretty innovative. As for his outlook on things, I'm sure we can all agree that it is a pretty unique approach in the game. Sassy/passionate serial killer who almost seems to console his victims while taking great care to assure them a beautiful death is pretty new.

In conclusion, it's not just the kit that decides these things about a champ, and even if abilities by themselves have similar counterparts, if execution is new, the ability may as well be too, as it is used quite differently. I hope I didn't bore you with the wall of text. I have a bad habit of doing that.

(P.S. If you want, I can make your champ. I can't draw for crap, but my friend and I design them and balance their numbers as best we can to build up a portfolio for my Rito application and I'm sure he wouldn't mind. We'd give him a name, Identity, quotes, numbers, details, and a passive fitting his kit (I'm thinking bruiser-esq but full tank might be necessary or we get another CC-damage bruiser like Vi.) Anyways, just let me know and it'll only take a day or two.)

doombotMECHAFeb 4, 20161 votes

YES. he wouldn't be anywhere near the same champion.

Penta PenguinFeb 3, 20163 votes

As far as linear skill-shots go, I don't their Jinx/Jhin W's could be any more far removed. The guy is just butt-mad that "Year of Gimmicks" is over.

You have a champion like Gnar that did revolutionize the transform concept, apparently that isn't good enough for the Kalista fan though.

I'm surprised they even like Illaoi

Meep ManFeb 3, 20165 votes

I see a champion with mechanics we are familiar with that plays differently and yet still feels good and makes an impact.

Champion Design: Success

Also, looking at his other champions, being Jinx, Vi, Gnar, and Ekko, they all are the same thing. We can easily figure out the champion yet they have this twist and feel to them that makes them feel unique. Jinx has her rockets and such, Vi with her ultimate, Gnar because GNAR!, and Ekko due to his ultimate and W. They all have simple spells that combine together for a unique and cool experience. While Gypsy might not be breaking the limits like other champions are (like Tahm and Kalista and such who, ironically, have a decent hate base), his champions are all really good for the game as a whole that all bring a fresh feel to the game. Still waiting on Bard's designer, however, to make another champion since he pushes the limit AND made a good champion so I wanna see more of that.

OrangesilkFeb 3, 20162 votes

But the question is: Does he really play differently?. I'm seeing the usual kiting, the same positioning, almost identical gameplay to all other ADCs, his gameplay is not significantly different either.

Think of Gnar for a second, each of his abilities is something we'd seen before, there's not a lot of something new to how he works. But when you get down to actually playing him, he plays entirely different from anything else, a tank that kites you until he's ready to engage? now that's something gameplay-wise we'd never seen before.

Even Ekko brings some interesting gameplay to the rift, trying to land that ridiculous stun, trying to dance in your team long enough for the perfect ult, it really brought new gameplay even if it didn't bring anything actually new to the rift.

KiharonFeb 3, 20167 votes

He should play differently. The super-crit on the final shot before reloading gives him very spiky power windows relative to other ADCs. He wants to get to that last attack and then hit a champ with it, but then has to step back for a while until he has more bullets to fire.

Standard ADCs on the other hand, have relatively level power windows (barring randomness of crit chance). Anytime they want, they can attack you for the same effect as any other time. Find a stray Jinx in the river? She's ready to shot till one of you dies. Find a Jhin in the river? He may only have one shot to hit before a 2 second down time to attack again.

To some extent, he is a bit like Gnar in that he has a buildup to a mini-power spike (his super-crit shot), followed by a down time when his effectiveness is reduced. Obviously, Gnar's buildup and mini-power spike and weak time are all longer than Jhin's, but it's actually a similar pattern.

IqqiFeb 3, 20166 votes

Yes Gypsy is in my opinon Riots best champion designer. Every champion he has released in my opinion has felt balanced. Sure Vi has the potential to get really big and own people, but the key is she doesnt have disengage. She only goes one way ( I dont count a 5 yard dash ) When compared to Kha and Rengar who are super OP all the time. No Gypsy I really hope Riot keeps you and lets you keep building champions. You are the first champion designer in a long time (longer than I can remember) who has an amazing track record for creating unique, enjoyable, not game braking, and champions who can be balanced.

Left Hook LarryFeb 3, 20161 votes

Ekko balanced?

CasterGilgameshFeb 3, 20165 votes

well he is close to being balanced now with the nerfs....

Very Epic GuyFeb 3, 20164 votes

I have to agree! Every detail of playing him is a lot of fun, from his quotes to his emotes to his abilities. He really conveys that feeling of "unhinged psycho killer" and it creeps me the fuck out!

His kit does have a good amount of counterplay and even his autos are balanced out. He may be a bit on the weak side of things come to think of it, but it doesn't really matter since he's just that fun

Stars ShaperFeb 3, 201611 votes

Today I had the most funny experience. After a torubled earlygame our team manages to get an advantage and I start cumulating some kills. The enemy Vayne starts to tell in /all chat that I'm being carried, 10 seconds after I solohandled her and Talon with my ultimate after he tried to run away. and then I hear this:

Jhin "My critics are... usually short-lived".

Priceless

Very Epic GuyFeb 3, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RUaNrtTE,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-02-03T18:56:51.050+0000)

Today I had the most funny experience. After a torubled earlygame our team manages to get an advantage and I start cumulating some kills. The enemy Vayne starts to tell in /all chat that I'm being carried, 10 seconds after I solohandled her and Talon with my ultimate after he tried to run away. and then I hear this:

"My critics are... usually short-lived".

Priceless

That is just way too perfect

Stars ShaperFeb 3, 20162 votes

I couldn't refrain to type that in all chat as answer xD Man that Vayne got salty.

SquarefighterFeb 4, 20164 votes

Ah hahaha I absolutely love it when Champion quotes line up with what's actually going on. I was recently playing Sion and talking to my friend about what was happening in my lane

Me: "I just killed uh... uh... whoever their jungler is. Who's their jungler again?" Sion : "Forget the faces of the slain!"

Karma DeifiedFeb 3, 20164 votes

I agree, Jinx Jhin are very well designed.

Ben SharpioFeb 3, 20163 votes

I love the fact that hes a new champion that isn't annoying to play against/overpowered. I still don't mind banning him in champion select in ranked games for the sake of the team, but in normals, i enjoy working with the champion if he's on the team, and i actually enjoy/don't mind playing AGAINST him. He has unique abilities and clear counterplay, and i recently saw a really good jhin on my team and on the other team. It was truly awesome to see how people have adapted to his playstyle.

DEGplaysFeb 3, 20163 votes

When I play Jhin, I get this awesome sense of "Who's gonna die today?" I LOVE IT, it's unique, it's BAD ASS, it's satisfying.

I believe that Jhin is a champ that rewards really well and punishes like no tomorrow. Sure his mechanics aren't.... mechanics.... But placement is his game and it makes it feel like you really are trying to SUPPORT your team as an ADC (Bot lane puns, gotta love them) Jhin is Jh-in the right place and I can't wait to get him to lvl 5.

KING OF MASKSFeb 3, 20163 votes

I dunno... from a mechanical standpoint Jhin looks great, but on an aesthetic level he feels like a complete misfire (if you'll pardon the pun). I haven't played him yet so I won't go overboard with the negative criticism, but I really don't get the sense that his kit is in line with his "psycho artist" theme.

Reading the dev blog makes it obvious that Jhin had a ton of really cool potential, but so far the end result is just kinda meh, in my opinion. Again, haven't played him yet so I could be totally wrong, but that's my first impression.

MadraFeb 4, 20163 votes

Jhin's okay. I don't like his bundle of stats passive. I don't think an ADC that has slows and a root really deserves to have such a powerful scaling movement speed bonus simply because he landed a critical strike, especially since the root goes through minions and procs under such a wide number of readily available conditions. He does feel like a unique champion, and I appreciate that his abilities are ultimately kept fairly simple. There's a definite disconnect between his concept and his design, though; it doesn't feel like you are playing a cruel virtuoso assassin. Jhin gets a B- from me.

Only Play DariusFeb 3, 20162 votes

Jinx and Vi are among my favorite champions, but laning against a Gnar as someone who isn't an assassin is painful, while Ekko has had a troubled balance history

But so far I haven't had any pains playing against Jhin

charcharmunroFeb 3, 20165 votes

Gnar at least has one of the fairer things about him, in that you know when he's suddenly gonna be something you really don't wanna be close to. But, yeah, otherwise he's just an annoying little shit who you can NEVER get close to, and when you can, you don't want to.

Tyrone LannisterFeb 3, 20162 votes

I like that way you die boy

Actually xPekeFeb 3, 20162 votes

I feel like Jhin is a little bit clunky though. And the fact that they need to put more power on his W and less power on his AA's tbh

Karma DeifiedFeb 3, 20162 votes

I'd say drop his base crit damage further, buff 4th shot damage and then buff w

rescuedFeb 3, 20162 votes

THANK YOU GYPSY!

Jhin is probably my favourite champ by far in the game. Thank you for creating such an interesting character! <3

Chuck CharlesFeb 4, 20162 votes

i think his visuals are kind of lack luster, but his kit is fun. that said, i think the W procing off teammates just feels too broken right now. that will need some work as its range is pretty ridiculous and he can chain cc from a mile away.

PrometheSFeb 3, 20161 votes

He's cool but most Challenger players like imaqtpie don't think he's strong overall.

supermuffin28Feb 3, 20163 votes

I concur. He's a lot of fun to play and I really love his layout and design, however, he does seem on weaker side. The lack of AS or burst puts him in a really niche place.

Admittedly it's quite fun to take 1/4 of a tanks health with his 4th shot, but you cant do anything for the next 2(?) seconds that make much of a difference. His Q seems like laning utility and that's it. His W is pretty easily avoidable, but a staple to survive-ability at the same time.

Ult is pretty sweet, but you miss and you wasted a lot of time in the far back really doing nothing but light zoning.

Kaiser NoahFeb 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

He's cool but most Challenger players like imaqtpie don't think he's strong overall.

Alright? So that means hes shit cuz a neckbeard ogre doesnt like him?

PrometheSFeb 5, 20161 votes

Literally every Challenger player that talked about him said he seemed weak.

Kaiser NoahFeb 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Literally every Challenger player that talked about him said he seemed weak.

Thats probley due to his w not doing the correct dmg its tooltip says. It does less.

Left Hook LarryFeb 3, 20161 votes

jhin is fine

But those champs you listed excluding Jinx are all cancerous

CasterGilgameshFeb 3, 20162 votes

wait what?dont you mean the other way around Jinx out of any i would consider cancerous Vi Needs to get in melee range for most of his damage Gnar has no control over his transformation and requires a lot of skill to pull off and ekko....he's fine now.......

Left Hook LarryFeb 4, 20161 votes

Jinx out of any i would consider cancerous

Nah, she has no dashes or displacements which means in fights she ACTUALLY has to have good positioning unlike some other adcs out there.

Vi Needs to get in melee range

Umm, yeah she is a melee champ? Lmfao. She's cancer because she has one of the best ultimate abilities for a jungler in the game and it literally requires no skill, point and click spell.

Gnar has no control over his transformation

The reason gnar is cancer imo is because he's overloaded as fuck. He's like an adc/tank put together into one champ. His range makes him a good counter to pretty much ever melee top laner, then he can form into a tank and win fights with him ulti with ease.