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Zyra feels strong but less skillful to play now

Amelie·5/11/2016, 4:13:42 PM·62 votes·5,620 views

There hasn't been much talk about Zyra lately, how does everyone feel about her?

I've been playing her since release - started mid, moved to support when she got nerfed. Nowadays I play her mostly in mid lane, and it's definitely strong, but feels really boring to me. I just wait for my passive to spawn seeds and throw a Q nearby for effortless harass (I don't even have to hit the enemy champion if I don't want to). The plant AI is so good that they stick to attacking champions pretty reliably. [This is also a buff to support Zyra because your plants aren't spending 80% of their time hitting minions anymore.]

I no longer have to aim my combos or try to directly hit a QW to get my plants to focus my target. I just continually whittle down people with the free seeds (occasionally supplemented by W) until they have to leave lane or I decide to full combo them as a finisher.

Overall, she feels on the strong side. Playing against her, I have a hard time getting through the plants to even scratch her. When ganked, her plants persist long enough to kill her attackers even after she dies. She puts so much effortless pressure in lane (and teamfights) and her mana costs are so low that she doesn't need a mana item to put out consistent damage.

I got a Riot survey after playing a Zyra game asking something like whether her rework feels like it fits her plant theme. Yeah, it does, but I'm not enjoying playing her as much as before.

Edit: Downvote fairies, please leave a response - I'm interested in a discussion.

Edit2: Wow, this thread blew up. Thanks guys - you gave me a lot to think about!

127 Comments

Ravenhale5/11/2016, 6:44:04 PM16 votes

I played Zyra on FTP weeks over the past year or so. I finally decided to pick her up permanently the day of the MYMU, somewhat aware of how her new kit functioned.

Zyra feels... awkward to play now. She always had a slight skill requirement in combining your seeds and skills, which still exists in her current kit to some extent. Her new passive can sometimes make this effortless, and the revised Plant AI certainly helps cut down the random minion slaying.

But the passive is so unreliable at times. It's weird that her skill curve is now based around manipulating a wonky seed spawner to your advantage. Sometimes you can't push the lane because your passive felt like dropping everything behind you or in the side bushes. Other times it wants to plop them all in turret range. It feels like you can only rely on the two seeds your W places for any calculated trades and the rest is whatever RNG decides for you.

Zyra is stronger because her Plant AI is better and occasionally her new Passive works to her advantage, both aspects having nothing to do with the skill of the player.

Chortle5/11/2016, 6:29:18 PM7 votes

She feels more boring to play I agree.

The player lost control of her plant location spawns which is something I'm not happy about.

You can no longer zone someone from whatever desired location. I often would W-Q over a wall to zone out an ADC or another carry in a fight. This can no longer happen since using your Q for just one plant spawn now is pretty lackluster (shortened life span and nerfed damage).

I feel it really pigeon holes her into "let's see how many plants I can make to increase my damage". Since the plant spawns are random over time and dictated by her placement on the map, that makes for a really slow build up and lack of player control.

I don't get the feel that I outplayed my opponent like I used to. I just feel like they don't know how to play around my plants.

DarkRitual5/11/2016, 10:17:28 PM5 votes

I've played her as support lately, and can agree. Stronger, but doesn't require you to actually plan anymore. Your passive often decides where your abilities should be placed, instead of the player setting up their garden.

Karma Deified5/11/2016, 10:08:49 PM5 votes

All the mages that were updated are far less skillful to play now.

Malzahar being the most diminished.

SoMNia5/12/2016, 1:56:24 AM5 votes

More skill doesn't always mean more fun. Sometimes, a champ's skill requirement is due to clunkiness, and ends up being more about avoiding poor performance rather than achieving good performance. I feel like choosing when and where to place Zyra's seeds was one of those cases, because they were so limited. I enjoy that they made her able to use her plants from level 1, even though putting so much power into her innate passive made it harder to control where they end up. She still has interesting choices to make. Getting more plants without having to max W just feels better, IMO.

Vekkna5/12/2016, 4:45:14 PM4 votes

So, I've done the math, and they nerfed Zyra's all-in damage by exactly 1 plant. What does this mean?

  • Poking with plants only is stronger and easier. 3 new plants equals 2 old plants, but you're far more likely to have spawns in lane that will attack enemies.

Verdict: huge buff to poke.

  • A full burst combo now does significantly less damage than old Zyra, falling further behind as the game progresses. Depending on items and level, a 2-plant kill combo ranges between 11-20% less damage than old Zyra.

Verdict: huge nerf to burst and getting kills.

  • New Zyra breaks even with old Zyra's 2-plant combo damage if she has 3 plants for her full combo. New Zyra does more damage in a combo with 4+ plants, increased further by ulting 4+ plants.

  • New Zyra has longer cooldowns on W seeds and less cooldown reduction to reduce it. This is probably the most significant nerf to new Zyra. She now needs a Morello that she finishes around the time old Zyra would have been finishing Rylai's or Liandry's. As a practical matter, this hobbles Zyra's mid game because she has less pen, less hp, less utility, weaker poke, and drastically less power against tanks and objective monsters. But without the CDR, she's completely at the mercy of RNG for seeds because of the crazy long CD on W.

Conclusion: New Zyra is a pest and a lane bully. You are more likely to curb enemy aggression and poke them out of lane. You are less likely to do things like, y'know, kill the other guy. You are more likely to die while your plants do their dps because your opponent has a few more seconds to kill you in an all-in.

In other words, she's strong as a poke support who can contribute decent dps later in the game. She's better in a duo lane where her adc can deal reliable damage, but she's rng-dependent in a solo lane. She is no longer a reliable burst mage.

EarthenDragon5/11/2016, 4:20:37 PM4 votes

She's like a more powerful Donger now. Right? Yeah. That's disappointing.

deadlychuck5/12/2016, 12:15:49 AM4 votes

Honestly i feel like good number of the mages were simplified (malzahar being my ex-main), maybe not mechanically, but at least in terms of skill range. Which imo does nothing more than make them less satisfying to play. Excuse me if i enjoy putting effort in to get payout.

I mean i might be in the minority, but i'm the kind of person who built and optimized my own talent tree in wow. I play the champions who tend to be weak and/or complex, because mastering them feels more rewarding when you beat someone who is easier and/or more powerful. Though when a champion is simplified to, or given the power to, just breeze along and win, it's boring and unfun.

I've seen people say they don't want to feel like they need to work to play the game, but that just seems insane to me. Effort gives you personal investment in w/e you're doing, meaning that when you're rewarded it feels more valuable. Lack of needed effort also gives you an excuse for your losses. If i lose while my champion's skill ceiling is so low, i makes it seem like there is little room for improvement, rather it's just the balance of the game. That i couldn't have won, because they countered me.

ModAcademy Kayn5/11/2016, 10:17:26 PM4 votes

I honestly feel that the "Skill" needed for Old Zyra was a sort of "False Skill" that happens when you have to work with limited resources, but not poorly tuned resources, just limited resources.

Think it like you need 10 dollars, but you only have 5$, and a 5$ per hour job. Even if you had 7$ you still need to put in the same work to get that 5$, it just feels less limited and you get a bit extra.

chipndip15/12/2016, 3:19:34 AM4 votes

So...you guys want her to be a worse champion?

You want her old passive back?

Why is it that people are receiving buffs and improvements to their champs and they're complaining? It's like crying over flavors in Africa. Just eat your damn food.

VivaLaKitten5/12/2016, 12:04:39 AM3 votes

Zyra went from: oh look Zyra, An ally has been slain Zyra to ZYRA! RUUUUUUN! Double Kill Zyra Triple Kill Zyra Quadra Kill Zyra Penta Kill Zyra Ace Zyra

Oleandervine5/11/2016, 5:04:00 PM3 votes

I personally think her passive is great and helps her immensely. It could use some toning down though, especially at the higher levels. Otherwise though, I like the ability to not be beholden to W to make her kit work.

Lugg5/12/2016, 12:39:28 AM3 votes

I think it's great that the plant AI is better. They can always adjust the numbers if she's too strong now.

TheOvermind5/12/2016, 1:13:50 AM3 votes

In my experience she feels infuriating to play against... Her range and zone is insane, I can not trade back at all . It seems not fair to me. And also it feels like the zyra player doesnt really break a sweat to do her poke and zone. It feels almost effortless. All in all I think she needs number tweaks and she will be fine, perhaps some quality of life changes too to make her feel more skillful to play.

SkyBlade795/12/2016, 1:23:05 AM3 votes

Wow, only in League do people complain about AI being too good XD

ForgiveColour5/12/2016, 12:07:27 AM2 votes

Support zyra is freelo just throwing this out there

Digital Badger5/12/2016, 6:06:59 PM2 votes

I think she's actually more skillful to play, mainly because as a disengage support, it's important to be aware of where all of her seeds are at all times, and know avenues for escape (and thus, ambush) when ever the enemy team comes in. They can chase you for being a squishy, and get absolutely railed by all of the plants you just summoned in front of/behind them.

Now arguably, her having more seeds means she has more options to fix mistakes. The wider activation radius of her abilities also means that she can miss her target and seed entirely and still do damage because "suddenly plants attack you even though you didn't get hit." But despite those changes, I think she's way more fun to play since her rework. I get to feel legitimately good when I lure the enemies into a plant ambush, because I had to actively think about how to set up around my plant spawns, and then react appropriately for when the enemy comes.

"My prey thinks itself clever" is a line she says occasionally, and I feel it fits her perfectly now with her improved ability to manipulate aggressors into a plant ambush.

thumbnail95/12/2016, 8:03:02 PM2 votes

it does seem like her passive is only a net gain to her laning phase. Also they changed her Q to make it mindlessly easy to proc seeds.

HeartlessWytche5/11/2016, 10:54:12 PM2 votes

She's significantly more fun now, people should stop complaining about EVERY CHANGE EVER. (Seriously, Riot doesn't even listen anymore because every single board post is just people bitching.)

She now has to plan around where she wants to be and how she wants to grow her garden, and in exchange if she does a good job of cultivating her garden she fills the teamfight with plants. It fits, it feels good.

Most importantly, her passive isn't that terrible POS one she used to have that was literally more annoying than not having a passive.

Yes she made some trades for getting a passive that does things, damage is down on QWE, plant duration down early game, plant health down early game. But her mana costs also went down so you have more control over mana, and her base MS went up (Yes!) so you have more control over positioning. She's got an actual niche now (Zone control, i.e. growing a garden.) and it feels great.

LewisRedmond5/11/2016, 10:53:57 PM2 votes

100+ games zyra main. 63% wins. I like the new kit. I just hope it doesn't get nerfed. Everything is faster. Before it was like using a rifle. You get you're blast off and then you gotta stop to reload. Now it's like running around with a sub machine gun. I'm popping off spells and plants all over the place. There is always something to do. Watching and playing off the passive timer adds an extra decision layer. Yes, I miss the insta burst, but constant activity is for sure my style and more than makes up for it. Some say they feel less control, I would say I feel more engaged.

I love the complaints... if she doesn't get nerfed I'm going to ride her to platinum easy, but maybe I'm just that good. I only play support because it queues.

GrReaper965/11/2016, 10:49:46 PM2 votes

To me the problem is how big skill seed hitbox is. Its essentially 3 times as big. I dont even have to bother looking i just randomly cast and suddenly i have 3 plants

Leblancs Boob5/11/2016, 10:13:33 PM2 votes

Yup. Well said. Current Zyra does not feel very satisfying to play when you win or lose based on how the random seed spawning favors you. I don't care if Zyra has to be nerfed for it to happen but she NEEDS to have more control over her passive seeds.

Drunk Rummate5/12/2016, 4:53:33 PM2 votes

zyra was my top support before this update, always loved playing her.

it feels like they removed a lot of the skill with her QW combo in particular, since you dont even have to hit your seed for it to turn into a plant now. makes sense with the new passive, but its just counter intuitive to me as someone who played old zyra a lot.

i guess they wanted zyra to be a control mage, so in that sense the rework is doing its job. more dps over an area, less dps to a specified target. it just feels bad because she used to have such controlled burst, and now it doesnt really matter how accurate you are with skillshots because you're going to make 4 plants with your Q anyways, and the Q damage isnt high enough to where you feel like you're boned for missing it.

Baron Perenolde5/11/2016, 11:27:38 PM2 votes

It seems like Zyra lost a lot of burst but gained a lot more reliability. The smarter AI is a blessing, considering how stupid the plants used to be. The passive does seem a bit too random at times, I agree.

I don't think that you should feel like Zyra's braindead, you should be happy that you can play a champ that you love at her best potential.

5050BS5/11/2016, 11:07:39 PM2 votes

Im with you partway. She took more skill before for sure. I almost wish they didnt give her passive the seeds spawning and just gave her W more seeds that build faster and made it more where her passive was with stacking seeds.

Like 2 seeds after 1.5s make a big seed that makes a bigger, tougher, lives longer plant.

THen she could ether space them out to get the normal 5s plants

Or build a Zone with tougher longer living plants (say at Baron, Dragon, Jungle camp) She could build a big seed that makes an area much more dangerous for a laner to attack her in knowing a big plant will spawn that cant be killed with just a W or E

Currently she just waits and hopes her passive will place seeds where she needs them and if not you move to where the chaos wills you.

FYI: I hate her Q shape still.

Icestar11865/12/2016, 10:07:20 PM1 votes

Why are you complaining that they fixed the plant AI? That was one of the biggest complaints about old Zyra, and bad programming is fake difficulty, not real difficulty. Fake difficulty is bad design and I'm glad they fixed it.