Boards›Gameplay

Anti-Stealth options and Dominion

SKOBODO·1/15/2016, 1:32:15 PM·9 votes·1,253 views

Dominion is a map that currently has very few anti-stealth options, which is a problem since it makes stealth champions obnoxious to deal with. On Summoner's Rift, you can drop a Vision Ward to detect stealth, and the map is huge, so traps cover a much smaller percentage of the map. On Twisted Treeline, you have a vision trinket that lets you detect stealth. The lack of anti-stealth options leads to annoying gameplay. It's not fun to run into Shaco boxes or Teemo mushrooms without any way to detect them, and you run into them far more often than in Summoner's Rift since the map is smaller and they can spam more traps since they have more mana-regen and likely more CDR (most Dominion champions buy a lot of CDR). It is also not fun to fight champions such as Talon, Kha'Zix, or LeBlanc and being helpless once they go into stealth. On SR, you could drop a Vision Ward, and on Twisted Treeline you could use your trinket. The current anti-stealth options are meh, and I will explain why and I will give some suggestions how to solve this issue.

What about the current anti-stealth options? Twin Shadows was the best anti-stealth option for APs and supports; sadly, Riot removed it. The current three options are all deeply flawed. Lightbringer is actually decently cost efficient, but it grants a weird bundle of stats: 30 AD and 30% crit chance. Few champions would want that much crit chance in their build, though it could be a decent option on auto-attack based ADC... Except auto-attack based ADCs are some of the worst at dealing with Shaco/Kha'Zix/Teemo/LeBlanc/Akali/Talon.

Hextech Sweeper? Those stats are so meh. You're paying around 450 gold for the mana and the anti-stealth detection, which isn't too bad, I suppose. It would mainly be useful on tanks. Here's the issue: Tanks generally run scaling CDR/level quints and scaling CDR/level glyphs on Dominion, leaving 10% CDR from items, which will usually be a Locket of the Iron Solari or Spirit Visage. You could scale down on the glyphs and run some MR/level and get 20% from runes, and thus open up for the cases where Sweeper would be usable, but you're hurting yourself by not getting Locket or Spirit Visage, since both are such good items for tanks. You could run just 10% CDR, but then you'll be in a tough spot for games where you don't need Sweeper. You're gimping your build just in case you need Sweeper, and Sweeper is not very cost efficient...

So, what about the last option, Oracle's Extract? It sucks. You're paying 250 gold on a map where kills are frequent and the base kill value is 100 gold. You're in now way guaranteed a kill from buying it, and you might not even encounter any stealth champions before you die. Even if you manage to survive it only lasts for 4 minutes, so you'd have to spend 750 gold to even get 12 minutes of anti-stealth.

How do we solve this issue? I see three options. One is to nerf stealth overall with map specific nerfs. This is problematic since stealth champions aren't necessarily overpowered, though they are anti-fun when there's no counter-play. Running into a Teemo mushroom that you couldn't even see is not very fun, and Shaco backcapping over and over is not fun either. I don't think this is the ideal solution, but it could help make Shaco and Teemo less annoying.

Another option is to give up better itemization. There once was a time where Hextech Sweeper was a really good item, and that really helped make stealth champions less obnoxious. Why not one or two new anti-stealth items and maybe buff the current anti-stealth items? Oh, and bring Twin Shadows back; I don't think it was problematic on Dominion. We've had good itemization in the past and stealth-based champions were still good, though they had more counter-play.

The third option is to give us an anti-stealth trinket. Twisted Treeline already has one and it works well on that map. Just make it overlap with the revive trinket. The revive trinket would have two uses: One when you're dead (revive), and one when you're alive (anti-stealth dust). Even if it didn't grant vision and only detected stealth it would help a lot, even with a 2 minute cooldown. This wouldn't help that much against traps though, since you might not want to spend a long cooldown just to clear a trap or two.

So... Which option do you guys prefer? Could we perhaps hear from Riot about this?

17 Comments

Rebonack1/15/2016, 4:37:18 PM4 votes

I would say change things up considerably.

Hextec Sweeper is now a basic item that grants 5% movespeed, the trap detection aura, and the BOOF! active. Then make several upgrade paths for it focused on various champion types. Codex and Wisp for AP, Glacial and Spectral for Tanks, Hatchet and Cloak for ADCs, Fist and Kindle for heavy Fighters, Dirk and CDR-Hammer for Assassin-y folks, Stinger and Recurve for folks who like attack speed (no I'm not just trying to get Kog buffed, shut up!).

Provide everyone an attractive means for making the enemy Teemo sad.

Behold the Void1/15/2016, 3:13:21 PM3 votes

I don't think the dual-use trinket is doable, I remember MWAB specifically said that wasn't something they could do when it was first introduced.

I'd love to see Sweeper remade into something useful, I loathe that item. The stats are wonky and it's just not worth it at all. I feel like Lightbringer should be brought in line with the other AS/Crit items and then have it split into a more Bruiser-focused item possibly building off Jaurim's fist. In my opinion, the key point here for both of these is that if you tag someone, you get truesight on them for a few seconds. This makes Shaco much less annoying to deal with. The dousing vision can be retained of course, it's a good option in Dominion even in the current nerfed state and the detection field is hardly overpowered since the range is so small and you're still liable to facecheck since they're always in the brush anyway, but at least it's SOMETHING.

Edit: Try this on for size:

Lightbringer - builds out of Zeal and a Cloak of Agility, gives comparable stats to the PD/Hurricane/Shiv/RFC, special ability: when you hit someone with an auto-attack, they are revealed and you have true vision on them for 2-3 seconds, active gives the revealing mist. Hextech Sweeper - builds out of Bami's Cinder and Glacial Shroud, Kindlegem, or something similar. Gives health, 10% CDR, maybe some armor, and a weaker Sunfire aura that hits and reveals stealthed enemies or traps in the area. Blackfire Torch - builds out of Needlessly Large Rod and Fiendish Codex, gives CDR, a bunch of AP, and has an ability to send out a huge burst that damages everyone in the area and inflicts a burn on them that reveals them and gives true sight for the duration.

Sakuri Ono1/16/2016, 3:43:03 AM2 votes

Edit: Well...that format spacing came out annoying...I'll think about fixing it later. Feel free to gloss over this entirely just to not be buggered by the eye strain.

I always find it silly when people grumble about Sweeper being a dead buy outside of anti-stealth. There are loads of blind corners where vision just cuts off, brush juke points, ect. where just a few seconds of vision make the difference between securing a kill for a mid-push and letting someone get away for a full team reset. If your Tank doesn't know how to do this they need to learn how to utilize vision more efficiently. And it's not like they're proactively losing stats for that vision either.

I perpetually run Clairvoyance on everything since I haven't felt like Tanking in eons. So I'm constantly losing the benefit or having a Heal or a Barrier or even an Ignite. Still manage to contribute and win games just fine. So tell your Tanks to stop bellyaching. XD

The Lightbringer I can see possibly needing some tuning but again this is just a weird issue to see being a thing. I've chased down Shaco with Draven just because no one on the team can be bothered to, and it's worked out just fine. Talon and Kha'zix are issues much most ADCs worth their salt won't be a position where you can't at least trade 1 for 1. Akali, Leblanc , and Teemo you don't really 'need' vision for. Stay away from the Shroud, let her go because with that little health she's done for, and don't walk over obvious spots are all solid enough counters. A bit of MR goes a long way too.

I dunno, I think this is one point where I'll just be sitting opposite of everyone else. I think vision is just fine now and even more would be too oppressive.

Kholdstare131/15/2016, 6:33:15 PM2 votes

I think the big problem was losing spookyghosts for AP trap detection, right?

We just need to restock our anti-Teemo options (with multi-hit passives to let slow APs clear effectively)

Kholdstare131/18/2016, 3:17:10 PM2 votes

Boot enchantment: Dangersense. Gives trap detection and sweeper active.

There. Now everyone has the option without compromising builds with weird stats. Just a gold fee for the part we really care about.

Umbre0n1/15/2016, 11:50:33 PM1 votes

who plays Dominion?

Chewbaklava1/29/2016, 9:43:40 AM1 votes

Thanks for the thoughtful post! I've played roughlya dozen dominion games in the past two weeks and the traps feel SO oppressive since the removal of twin shadows. I see a teemo/shaco nearly every game and it pains me there is little-to-zero counterplay.

Velheibgnar1/21/2016, 10:32:29 AM1 votes

Sylio, do you have any other accesible way of contacting out of euw acc? I might have some new people into monday's tournies.

Concernig stealth; the most broken thing for myself is the time factor related to shrooms and boxes. I mean, a solid [CC/tanky/broken/with enough assasination] comp beats most teams with shacos and teemos but what really snowballs from said "stealth" is the time you are slowed/feared while running to any important location on this SMALL map. Like rly dude... Better comp, more dmg, outplayed, outsmarted, outeverything and there are still games when you lose because of free windmill caps, free neutralizes because someone was running through "jungle" 10 hours.

Map specific changes yea ;( cry me a river not when riot decides to take their time.

Paroe1/21/2016, 10:42:20 AM1 votes

item 3187 item 3185

Can we just make these items available on all maps?

Minarde1/16/2016, 2:39:57 AM1 votes

Dual-use trinket seems clunky. There will be times when you want to pop the vision right before you die, but hitting it barely too late would accidentally blow a revive charge. Disabling the revive usage for a brief period immediately after death is also bad because there's times when you do want to instantly revive.