Why is Sion not allowed to have a strong point in the game??

Spoofghoul·5/27/2018, 8:44:59 PM·12 votes·7,244 views

His strong point has always been early-mid game But that got axed kinda hard

His win rate has always started to go downhill after 20 minutes or so

So you used your strong early game to get ahead and then stay ahead using your W passive and items to grow hp a little faster then other champs could Which would allow you to stay ahead and be a decent impact on the game until transitioning into a tank/meat wall later on However this still required effort on your part to stay ahead which also isn't that easy considering his wildly unreliable uber telegraphed kit

On the opposite end failing to get ahead meant you screwed up as you rely on farm to be able to compete with other tanks stat wise So this is a huge risk since you could never make these unfarmed stats up later into the game when you need to group a lot Especially since Sion's damage to minions is handicapped. which means you can't farm a lot at later stages. So failing early and getting zoned means the enemy tank who is more reliable and less telegraphed is now also out statting you hard

But ever since the recent changes the following has happened

You are mediocre in the early game making things a lot harder and you lost damage overal not just early making it even harder to get back into the gam,e if you fall behind

The changes aimed at giving choice whether to max E or Q pretty much removed all choice There is less reward for succeeding early which has gotten significantly harder whilst the risk has gotten bigger You simply cannot afford to lose lane at all anymore whilst before you could at least go even and be ok well that went flying out the window as well The only option left is to max E and grab comet to poke your enemy out of lane

But this playstyle sits below 50% winrate And past 20 minutes the winrate just starts dropping

My biggest concern here is that Sion lost his only strong point/ moment and got nothing in return making him mediocre early and weak late with the risk of being utterly terrible late game

When i pick pantheon i know i have a shitty lategame or teamfight champ but i can win lane and go from there staying ahead Now let's say we make his Q deal a third less damage and make his E lose most of the scaling unless you rank it up Oh and we nerf his sustain too just because. well guess what he just lost all viability since his moment to shine got axed and he has no way to shine at any other moment Also just out of curiosity what would you think would happen here would he go and max E instead? really?

This is what happened to Sion more or less

The very least they co do is to properly re balance him

looking at his history we can see that the E was an issue before

This is what they did, they nerfed the damage and the mana cost Guess what comet and manaflow band did?

Oh yea it was like a complete nerf reversal leading to the same freaking issues, this wasn't that hard to see coming And we could have scrapped those runes, or better yet do some balancing on champion level since it was primarily Sion who was abusing the hell out of this shit

So yes E nerfs where warranted for sure but those same E nerfs also nerfed every other Sion playstyle as far as rune choices went The Q nerfs didn't do enough but alongside the E nerf are a little too harsh so the armorshred came in as compensation well it doesn't help with CS Oh and there was this little tripple bead cheese but that didn't need to lead to game long changes either did it, Especially considering the fact that Sion is supposed to (try) get a large health pool and he still needs to regain his health at a reasonable pace when dealing with split pushers for example He is already handicapped in the tank stats department to make up for the health pool he MIGHT get

See i can live with all these changes but they are simply incomplete

There needs to be compensation so Sion can have a place and moment in the game where he does get strong

**See the things i would change are kind of easy **

Nerf the level 1 regen further down since you guys at Riot want the damage to stick however compensate this by giving Sion the largest amount of hp regen at level 18, it is after all his only way to sustain his larger health pool (provided he gets there)

The second thing i would change is his W active It's damage should scale with Sion's health. this way if he is played successful and farms some more health you can get more damage out of it late game And because it now scales with Sion's hp the 400 damage cap isn't really needed either

This makes up for damage lost elsewhere provided you do well enough earlygame to get your HP with farm And it only kicks in later into the game as for the most part Sion's health wont really outgrow his enemies health that fast anyway

There is one risk, falling behind might make it a little weaker at least for a decent part of the game staying even makes it barely any stronger But doing well makes it better primarily past 20 minutes The ability already has clear counterplay

**As for Q max ** The only way to make this happen is to make maxing it less suicidal (yea yea hyperbole) Since Sion is somewhat squishy early with low health and armor and Q essentially roots you and is easy to avoid and therefore unreliable Sion also has no way to disengage if an enemy gets on to him and will lose an allin in such a situation to like 90% of what he usually encounters in lane

A bigger amount of health or armor or a little of both would go a long way This would fit neatly with the reduced regen making it less risky to max Q but having damage stick better during lane at least until about level 6/7 after which the sustain gets better.

Let's be real here, why would i bother maxing Q vs Darius or Garen or Irelia they will ruin me if they get on top of me and at that point the Q is the more reliable slow over E so using it first is stupid because if they get to me after that i'm royally screwed E spam from max range is so much safer which is part of the issue Id be temped to go for the better damage from Q if dying to an allin was less likely but as it stands the risk is too great and ill rather max E

Though early armor/hp might still not be enough to warrant Q max since E is so safe in which case perhaps more damage to minions will help a lot as well as that would give Q a little more safety too due to better wave clear from it over E max Anyway making Sion players max Q might not even be possible barring ridiculous changes of coarse. It is also not very important in the grand scheme of things since as it stands now E max is sub 50% winrate anyway. and with the other proposed changes going even would make him only a little stronger past 20 minutes as he right now

These seem like seem fair changes to me, still as risky with the weaker early game but at least there would be potential rewards. becasue as it stands now there is no reward for playing well, not talking about being fed 20 kills, but simply doing well not dying and gaining a cs lead gets you nowhere but risks are pretty big. Sion needs a way to become more relevant and i think this is the most fair way to do it since your opponent also gets a say in it because they can hinder your progression by playing better then you on top of that the buffed/changed ability has plenty counter play too And yea i did not make much of a tldr but come on it only takes 1 minute to read this xD

18 Comments

Apocyliptic5/28/2018, 12:11:55 AM15 votes

Wait, are you serious? Sion was meta, as in, S tier for like 10 patches. He's still a very good top lane tank, actually, the BEST top lane tank for solo que. Sions strongest point is his early game, and since he should have had a free lane early, he scales better than his lane opponent once mid game comes.

I also don't know what you're saying when you claim he's bad late game. I don't think you actually know what that word means. Mordekaiser is bad late game. Quinn is bad late game. Sion is not bad late game. He's just not some irelia or camille. You can actively carry games late as sion, and mid, and especailly early.

This seems like a Low elo QQ thread. You're not losing games because of your champion pick friend. You're losing them because you're bad at the game.

MorganFreemanBot5/27/2018, 8:52:24 PM4 votes

Because they bugged his E, which netted him a lot of (negative) attention and QQ, which in turn got the shit nerfed out of him.

The E nerfs were arguably fine. Sion's poke-pattern in lane has always been problematic, and trying to shift away from it is alright. The massive nerfs to his Q were not fine. It's already one one of - if not THE - most counter play heavy abilities in the game, gutting its power is asinine. It's not acceptable that it still 'breaks even' at max range, because Sion's whole kit falls off rapidly once the mid game hits, and he transitions into little more than a walking meatball.

The Bearded Bard5/28/2018, 12:31:44 AM2 votes

Because he isn't fun to play against, at all.

Z3Sleeper5/28/2018, 2:24:19 AM2 votes

Dafuq you mean? His strong point is still the early game, he's just not completely dumpstering his competition now.

Did you really think that ungodly E spam damage was 100% fine?

Skorch5/28/2018, 3:54:39 AM2 votes

I think its pretty obvious Riot is trying REALLY hard to not negatively affect Sion since in EVERY patch notes he has its "Please for the love of god max Q again, his E max just makes him a major bully."

And it is insane to think his E max is healthy for the game, it was just ridiculous.

Dysnomia5/27/2018, 9:18:58 PM1 votes

I don't need a "strong point" when playing him. I just need demented game matching system to avoid ruining my games. They don't need even to fix his E bugs, just this cancerous game matching system would be nice change.

koshkyra5/28/2018, 1:11:00 AM1 votes

Immobile champions who arent adcs arent viable in season 8

Colgate Gator5/28/2018, 5:18:17 PM1 votes

Because he was the last Bastion of the tank identity, tanks being strong is considered an issue everytime it happens.

But Xin Zhao, a bruiser, dominating every other jungler and killing the so called "variety"? We can rest with that for a few more patches, it's cool.

Wild Geese5/27/2018, 11:55:30 PM1 votes

I'd like to see him have a bit more to offer in the late game, traditionally Sion was a bit of a hypercarry. Modern Sion is more of a tank--but they still gave him nice scaling and the health stacker.

His early game seems fine as in; it was a little too good before. He's not weak early now.

Now I'm not sure how to make him strong late... Attack speed per level? Better max shield? Stronger level 11 and 16 Ultimates?

ı Sona ı5/28/2018, 12:26:35 AM1 votes

I think that might depend on the way you are playing him! I use Sion mid lane and I created my own build for him! It all has to do with stacking more health and damage to capitalize on his shield and Steraks and Gargoyle! Perhaps a new build or strategy will help you find more success! ;)