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How to nerf OP support mages without hurting mid

Arya Riven·2/5/2017, 4:38:59 PM·46 votes·3,769 views

To me this is simple. Probably because I main Riven.

But if anybody hasn't noticed. Riven has never had the same kind of tank build issues many Skirmishers and Assassins have. Why is this? Scalings. One of the healthy things about Riven's design(prepares for flack), is that it is always more beneficial to build her primary stat items, making building off items like tank items a sacrifice.

This is because Riven is a carry and thus is designed to scale off of carry items. And unlike Yasuo's crit passive. Riven's AA enhancement passive doesn't coverup the need for items it enhances it.

Likewise. Mages who function excessively well in support yet have been troubled mid. Could see nerfs to their later level base damages on abilities. Making them less useful baseline. In exchange those who need it would see buffs to scalings so that at mid-build and full-build they would see the same, or potentially slightly higher total numbers.

Mages unlike Marksmen, scale well off of base damages. This is why a 0/11 brand with 20 cs at 20 minutes can still be more threatening than an Ashe in the same position. Mages also begin the game stronger than marksmen.

This is what allows people like Brand, Malzahar and Annie to support well. They go "support" and with only the support item they can 100-0 an ADC in a single full burst post 6. If you take away some of that base damage and tune them to scale better with their items. They will go the way of support Ashe, a dead meme.

If the support mage playstyle and damage bloat it brings wants to be kept as a niche. They could be tuned to keep it possible but not ideal.

Now I cannot believe I am suggesting this... but further tuning could be a slight buff, very slight, to the AP offered by expensive mage items. Making them solid picks again. When combined with tuned scalings and base damages. Mages would feel compelled to build damage, if they want to do damage. Just like a carry class should be.

Now I don't play mages much since Malzahar was reworked. So I'd love to hear from you all below! Thank you.

82 Comments

chipndip12/5/2017, 7:44:28 PM14 votes

Here's the thing: People are complaining that these mages, two of which are intentionally designed (at this point) to work as pivot picks, have high bases while working in a duo lane. People miraculously forget that ALL SUPPORTS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG EARLY.

In League, support champs are literal garbage. They can't fight on their own and they're weaker in comparison to solo laners at basically all stages of the game because they're designed to work off of others. Doing this a few times for a few champs? Aight, but this mentality is applied to every support. Supports that actually have a spine have it Lulu surgically removed Lulu until they're worthless. If I say something about it, everyone talks to me about how "strong" Lulu is. The proof would be in the pudding if she was worth a damn, right?

So we're at a point where it's actually confusing that a support is strong in the early game, with high reliance on bases rather than scalings, LIKE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE. We're literally ass-backwards now.

Ahristocats2/5/2017, 4:49:21 PM11 votes

Dodged a game to be able to post here (jk we had 4 adc mains in one selection)

Yasuo unlike riven is "punished" if he builds offensive items actually, this is due to his 10% crit penality on AA and 25% on Q yasuo players NEVER build an AD item after IE, they only build IE+PD/shiv then go for bruiser/tank items because they will gain nothing from offensive items, their crit is capped with 2 items and building AD is inefficient, the AD ratio on E is so bad (0.2 bonus AD can't be stacked with mutliple E) it won't change anything

Riven on the other hand, does so much damage by going full glass canon, she can do a carnage like a skirmisher and does her job with her low cd dash+shield try to build yasuo full offense the same thing won't happen just due to the crit penality

Now mages, they have too much base damage and it's done on purpose because mages should dominate mid game the problem with this is that they don't need items to dominate mid game, a level 9 zyra can combo an adc and kill him with plants without a lot of AP this is a problem in my opinion because nothing else is viable

In dota2 the same thing happens, exactly the same mages reach mid game and burst down targets without items but the thing is that dota2 has also other supports viable supports supports who: -push (shadow shaman) -protects -initiate -do everything (Rubick)

but in league right now, Sona Soraka Braum Bard and other sup (except thresh and nami) have all fallen from the level, i played Braum like 10 times in high elo, and realised how insanely squishy he was in mid game, i literally die in 2 seconds until late game

with this, i hope i enlightened some darkness i hope that riot will just buff the other supports because right now mage supports are working as intended

now back to the game

Ark Sorcerer2/5/2017, 5:45:09 PM7 votes

A few things need to be considered.

When it comes to mages, the only effective items on them, as a class, is AP items. While Mages may have good base damages, they are limited in their item selection, something people never think about. Note that I will be comparing class to class. There may be specific champions that may not fit with what I am about to say, but this is as a class. If I list a type of item, it means that specific stat. While I do know that there are tone of items that double or triple dips, pay attention to that actual stat itself. This is actually hard on me, myself, so do not go on too much of a rage if a specific stat seems off.

When it comes to Fighters, they have the following options to build: Damage, HP, Armour, Magic Resistance and Attack Speed. When it comes to Tanks, they have the following options to build: HP, armour, Magic Resistance, and Damage. When it comes to Marksmen, they have the following options to build: Attack Speed, Crits, Attack Damage, and Life Steal. When it comes to Assassins, they have the following options to build: Damage- AD or AP, Magic Resistance, and Life Steal, Magic Penatration/Lethality. When it comes to Mages, they have the following options to build: Ability Power and Mana.

As you can see, Mages can only get two class of items. Every other class can get a least four. Try it yourself. Look at the final items in the game and determine if a champion in that class could use it. Don't think too much about the specifics, if it would work on a champion, but could it be effective for them.

Mages cannot just get any random armour item to deal with a 4 AD enemy team, they can only get Zhyona's Hourglass as their only means of armour. Magic resistance is limited to the Abyssal Scepter. But that is all they can get. Trying to get different armour or magic resistant items does not work on mages. They get the items that benefit them in AP, which is why AP is the big thing here, they get those items because it has AP. If it did not have AP, no mage is getting any armour item in the game to try and fight the 4 AD enemy team.

So Mages are confined to AP items. Unlike Camille, who can go AD, Attack Speed, or tank-- allowing for a variety play styles, mages can only go damage. That is why players complain about mages burst, because they always have AP. Unlike that Illaoi top who can go tank or AD, and you can tell a difference when trying to kill her and when she kills you, mages can only go damage.

Lowering a mage's base damage in increasing their ratios is not good because they become reliant on AP items. So that means they become strong or weak with AP items. Nerf on Rylai's makes that harder to deal with.

People never think of the flexibility mages do not have when it comes to item building. A marksmen can go for attack speed, damage, crit, life steal, and even lethality works, but mages can only go straight damage.

MrHaZeYo2/5/2017, 10:18:43 PM5 votes

Nerf the base, buff the scaling.

Ambient Snow2/5/2017, 5:38:40 PM4 votes

Support mages aren't really the issue,

the issue is The common " support" can't keep up with them cause the common support Does 0 damage.

Its not about letting the support mages, get nerfed and hope it doesn't affect mid.

its about Getting the basic supports up to a point where they can compete with the support mages.

The issue right now is AP supports can CC and poke hard and Hard core supports like Leona , braum, alistar, have to just eat it and hope they don't get pushed out. Granted a few of them can handle it a little better then most but in many cases the issue is just The original support role is just so out dated now that the new push for AP supports just adds so much more value.

Also add in the basic issue of. " ADC's refuse to build any thing other then the cookie cutter build of hurricane, infinity and up" and won't even consider the idea of building a Magic resist item (god knows there are plenty)

Oleandervine2/5/2017, 6:05:25 PM3 votes

The shift in support meta is a direct result of the shift away from an assassin/carry meta into a tankier, diver meta. When assassins and squishy carries were reigning supreme, crowd control was absolutely essentially to doing well because it saved your team from enemies who die hard to CC. Now that assassins and carries have fallen down a peg or two, tankier opponents are coming into focus, and CC is less important than killing them faster. This is why mages are popping up bot lane now, and this won't change until the meta shifts again.

Spoofghoul2/5/2017, 10:30:33 PM3 votes

i find a lot of the problems coming from

item 3020 + item 3116 + item 3151

nobody i botlane has any real mr so getting some flat pen makes you deal near true damage in lane, and later almost true damage to most squishies

the liandries + rylais combo works really well on those support mages, like Brand Malzahar Zyra Annie

due to either dot's or pets allowing for permaslows and then perma burns as well

if that item combo did not exist we would never see these mages go botlane Brand with just those items outdamages your adc for the entire game it's pretty toxic tbh

Euthenaasia2/5/2017, 6:19:32 PM2 votes

Actually it's what is TOO healthy about Riven's scaling that is an issue. Riven gains defensive bonuses by building full AD due to her shield (which has a dash incorporated) scaling with AD. This is simply nonsense.

Steel Blossom2/5/2017, 6:06:57 PM2 votes

No. This isn't what's wrong. What's wrong is that mages have inherently different range. I don't know why Riot ever thought it was a good idea to give some mages 600 range on their spells, and 1k+ on others, but it's fucking retarded. It's basically a situation where only one side is allowed to deal any damage at all. Might as well take your ass bot lane to bully the 500-600 range ADC, since it's not like you're ever going to get any closer to killing a Lux who never even has to step into your vision range to farm.

Clapper of Asses2/5/2017, 8:16:14 PM1 votes

The thing that annoys me the most about support mages is item 3116 god this item makes my blood boil. I may not be high elo, but when a support mage builds that item and has a perma slow it's so stupid. They already out damage the other supports why do they get that stupid amount of utility and its even worst with Malzahar Brand since there DoTs constantly apply it. I knew when they lowered its price that it was going to start popping up botlane for real fuck this item. But yeah that's just a problem for me idk what they do it high elo.

Off Meta Evan2/6/2017, 1:41:39 AM1 votes

To be fair I think riven suffers from having too many things scale. There is no reason for her to have a shield that scales with AD. Like why tho