Is it me, or do AD "late game hyper-carries" have a lot of early game pressure?

I'd appreciate it if there was a bit more substance to the OP, but with that said, I agree with the point. Marksmen as a class are the game's designated carries, but the defining feature of a carry is that they generally pay for their amazing late-game with an equally weak early or mid game. What this would suggest is that the best way to counter marksmen bot lane would be to bring in lane bullies, but the truth of the matter is that actual lane bullies get bullied the hardest by marksmen. Champions like Darius, Pantheon, Renekton, and so on, all infamous for their early game strength (and, in Panth's case at the very least, for how hard he falls off post-lane), all get shat on by ranged opponents simply because range is such a strong asset even in the early game. If one were to pick those champions in bot lane, at best the marksman would simply be able to hang back and farm safely, and at worst they'd be able to push them out just through poke.

Part of the issue is because certain marksmen are just that good: marksmen like Corki, Lucian, Varus, etc. are fully capable of solo laning, and champions like Graves, Kindred and Quinn can even go top and become strong bullies there, yet all of these marksmen get at least decent late games because they all have access to very same set of strong items. Even in the case of more exclusively duo-lane carries, though, like Jinx, Tristana or Twitch, a major reason why they still get to dominate there is because the duo lane support role is practically built to ensure their protection. Enchanters right now not only give bonuses that synergize especially well with marksmen (e.g. Janna's bonus AD, Lulu's bonus AS), but also otherwise have extremely defensive kits, which they bolster through a whole slew of protective, marksman-synergistic items, like Ardent Censer. There are comparatively far fewer supports, including support tanks, who focus on aggression and enabling offensive plays, which also limits the amount of champions they can synergize with. The sad part to this is that there are enchanters who would love to play more aggressively, like Karma, Lulu, Sona or even Taric, but cannot, because literally the only aspects of their kits that are allowed to scale with support items are heals and shields.

Effectively, what needs to change at this point isn't simply the power curve of marksmen, but also the scaling and design of some supports: I think it's fine to have marksmen peak early or mid game, but for that to be healthy they need to have their late games weakened to be on the same level as non-marksmen with the same kind of power progression, as currently even the worst-scaling marksman has a better late-game than most other champions. Supports are always stuck in this weird situation where Riot routinely calls them out for promoting passive gameplay, negating riskier plays through much easier defensive abilities, etc., yet piles their scaling completely onto all of those protective effects, and gives them no choice but to purchase more, as there exists very little support itemization that is not entirely defensive in nature. Some protective supports I think need alterations to their design to become a bit more interactive, and less capable of easily negating great plays (older enchanters are especially guilty of this), and some I think deserve to evolve as genuinely aggressive supports, and could afford to lose some of their defensive effects and scalings in order to better reward offensive plays. Bot lane needs to change into an environment where marksmen can actually get bullied, and where early-game champions can synergize with aggressive supports just as well as carries do with defensive ones. Only then could late-game marksmen lose their early game pressure, and hopefully as a result we could see more compositional diversity as well.

Whoops we accidentally nerfed all the early game bullies. etc

after the cait buffs hypercarries will fall back in line again as they wont be uncontested

You know they do when a League LCS caster goes 'has finished two items, we're nearing the late game.'

Crit items prices got reduced so hyper carries hit their spikes faster. That and all AD items receive constant buffs.

Upvote farming is strong with this one.

Have some pretty crazy cheese's around level 2, but are generally weaker than their competition until a few items

Are stupid as fuck early because they actually do well throughout their lane, or when played well are untouchable by their meta laners. Fighting them mid and late is stupid because of how much damage they do, and how well they can disengage.

They don't do much at all early on, but if they do get some kills early, you may as well FF@15 because you're basically fucked

Wait you mean you cant just right click a vayne 1 time and expect to win? QQQQ

Seriously tho every one of the scaling adcs have so much counterplay early its not even funny you just dont know how to do it.

Tristana? Her e and q have some of the longest cooldowns for general abilities in the game. Bait em out then laugh as she trys to kill you with .8 atkspeed and pellets

Vayne? Just kill her. Its that easy. Before 6 you should have zero problems, just grow a fucking pair and do it instead of letting her farm

Twitch? Get in melee range and he cant vanish. dont stand in his w and there is zero situation he wins before 6

Kogmaw? Literally just kill him over and over again.300 gold minion till he has items. Unless he has a peeling support hes dead, and even then, he has no escapes so something like j4 can just noodle all over him.

Champs such as lucian, kalista, jhin, draven all DECIMATE scaling carries. If they play around those situations its a guarenteed free game. Sorry if you have to use your head a bit in botlane but... just l2p.

If you as an assasin cannot kill an adc, the adc is playing incredibly well.

The adcs have plenty of counterplay, its really the supports that have almost no counterplay. Especially janna and soraka. Janna gives you a 5 second window to trade, and soraka is just unfun.

What is this "late game" you speak of

Yeah I love how Tristana is ungankable because her W resets even when she farts.

Then she gets IE and Zeal and proceeds to delete you no matter who you are.

Had a game yesterday in which I was LB trying to duel a Tristana with I.E./zeal/hexdrinker/full boots. I had the same amount of gold, I just lost the trade and we both W away from each other. I mean, why is it that a freaking midget with a gun can out duel an assassin (even tho lb is not one anymore)?

Youre not too far off.

Remember the "Tank update?"

Had a supprising amount of AD update in in too. Specifically and its items.

Patch 7.9 notes

Zeal COST 1300 gold ⇒ 1200 gold

Runaan's Hurricane BUILD PATH Zeal + Recurve Bow + 300 gold ⇒ Zeal + Dagger + Dagger + 800 gold (total cost still 2600 gold) Removed ON-HIT DAMAGE No longer grants on-hit damage SECONDARY BOLT DAMAGE 25% total attack damage ⇒ 40% total attack damage

Rapid Firecannon DAMAGE TO CHAMPIONS 50-160 (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 50-120 (at levels 1-18) New RAPIDITY Attacks become Energized 25% faster

Statikk Shiv DAMAGE TO CHAMPIONS 50-120 (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 60-160 (at levels 1-18)

Now all those "finished" items have the same cost, but they were also buffed, and in R. Hurricane case its build path was improved with cheaper items, and in all cases Zeal was buffed with 100 less gold cost. May not seem like much but that means it became 114% gold efficient. Yeah, buying a Zeal gets you 114% of your gold spent in stats.

R. Hurricane is 95% efficient when built... without its passive (you know that 2 extra bolts thing that gives them 3 AA at once). That means R.H. passive only cost 130 gold... and that could probably be worth more. I mean would you pay 130 gold on any of your classes items to have AoE AAs on an item that has stats you want anyway?

Lets not forget these either

Essence Reaver COST 3600 gold ⇒ 3400 gold

Infinity Edge COST 3600 gold ⇒ 3400 gold

Remember this was changes in the "Tank update." If your marksman builds those items, then they get to build them earlier.

Also remember these changes were only patch 7.9, and were up to 7.17. Thats 8 patches ago... after the new and shiny wore off from the tank update, and after Gargoyle S.P. Zac underpowerd, Zac overpowered, and other tank stuff wore off/died down, we started hearing a lot more "supports are making marksman too strong" and now the more obvious "actually marksmen are just too strong!"

Its not hard to want to try and blame supports, even though people didnt have a huge hate on for in the beginning of the season, remember that Zeal changes came in the middle, and also remember that Patch 7.5 nerfed the hell out of . Many argued that it needed it, and I thought it was fine that it lost its resist debuff, but removing all 30% of its attack speed debuff was going to be a mistake.

So without the atk speed debuff of Exhaust to keep marksmen attack speed in check, with the buffed and very efficient attack speed/crit items they build, and cheaper AD items, then yeah they have so many advantages that its harder to keep them down than it was at the beginning of season 7. Many people ran with the "ADC 2017 LUL" meme, and it was slightly true, but mostly exaggerated. The biggest problem ADCs had was that other classes could carry games, and ADCs were a popular target with the weak towers and no fortification on bot tower, and the tower first blood and what not ADCs had trouble getting going.

Alright, enough writing for now...

Somebody just got blown up by a Tristana, lol.

I remember laning against a Kog and I can sure as hell confirm that. Actually no, MOST of the designated "hypercarries" have some form of not-at-all-bad early game pressure, with the exception of Vayne.