An Argument for Base Ability Power

ModThe Djinn·12/20/2019, 6:16:49 PM·50 votes·18,598 views

#The Problem

Here's the problem with Ability Power + Durability briefly summarized:

Goal: A durable AP damage threat.

  • Good AP Ratios: The character ends up too viable as a burst damage threat, and builds straight AP.
  • Weak AP Ratios: The character ends up too weak as a damage threat, and builds tank.
  • Health and AP Ratios: The character can abuse tank items and items like Rod of Ages. Also, relatively few durability-focused AP/Health items exist, limiting item choices that feel good.
  • High Base Damages: The character is ends up with too much innate damage, and builds mostly tank.
  • Creating AP + Durability items: The items need low Ability Power to not be exploited by Mages and Assassins, resulting in a need for high AP ratios and the issues those entail.

In short, the fact that AP ratios are often found on Tanks, Assassins, and Mages makes it difficult to design items that are fair for durable damage AP champions, and makes it difficult to design AP items that may be more appealing to tank users.


#A Solution

One of the reasons AD itemization is healthy is that AD is a complex stat. We have base AD, bonus AD, and total AD, and additionally our spells and attacks can scale on attack speed, critical strike chance, and cooldown reduction. This allows for items to be specifically targeted, and kits designed to tweak a champion's base AD, base attack speed, and base or bonus AD ratios.

Ability Power champions, meanwhile, have just Ability Power and cooldown reduction. This means we can only tweak cooldown and AP ratios. As a result tank and bruisers have to have their ratios designed around the possibility of building straight AP, and items have to be prepared for Mages and Assassins to look to buy them.

Which brings me to the main proposal: Base Ability Power.

Base Ability Power would be a base number between 0 and some to-be-determined upper limit, scaling up based on champion level. It would impact the damage of spells that scale on total ability power or base ability power, but not spells that scale on bonus ability power.

What this lets us do is design items that care about base ability power. Look at the following proposal:

AP Bruiser Item

  • +400 HP
  • +30 Armor
  • +50% Base Ability Power

A mage with 0 base ability power and, say, +36 base AP over 18 levels doesn't want this item: it only gives 18 base AP at level 18, and her spells may use total AP or even mostly bonus AP. But to your AP Bruiser who has 40 base ability power at level 1 and gains an additional 80 over 18 levels this item offers 60 base ability power at level 18, which is very appealing.

You could then tailor said character's ratios to prefer base ability power to bonus ability power, which would decrease the appeal of items like Deathcap, Luden's, et al.


#Questions / Answers

How would this impact Mages & Assassins?

Not at all, if you didn't want it to. Base AP wouldn't necessarily need to be a stat for every character, or, if you wanted some level-based scaling, you could give a token amount of base AP over 18 levels, making base AP itemization a poor choice for those characters for the majority of the game.

How would this impact tanks?

You'd definitely need to re-balance tanks with existing AP ratios, as most of them are probably better candidates for Base AP ratios and that should be considered on a case-by-case basis.

What if we want a character with options for both bruiser and burst builds?

You still have it! Such a character could have a slightly lower base AP and use Total AP ratios, allowing them to choose to go pure offense or sacrifice some offense for more defensive itemizations.

129 Comments

AirKingNeo12/20/2019, 11:08:51 PM9 votes

tanks shouldn't have AP ratios because of shit like Ap Malphite. It's worse of a problem on ARAM where there's no laning phase to punish these builds.

iiGazeii12/20/2019, 6:24:12 PM8 votes

Even just reducing the AP on items and adding it in as a base stat gives the devs much better knobs to tune champions. We don't need items that give %-base AP bonus, just items that are more valuable on champions that don't have a ton of it to start. Champions with low base AP, but high AP scalings, would just build AP items. Champs with high base AP, but low AP scalings, would build a bit of it, but would mostly look to scale naturally and build other things.

Base AP could also be given to problematic hybrid champions like Kai'Sa, Ezreal, and Akali, giving them reliable damage on their abilities that doesn't affect their autoattacks.

KFCeytron12/20/2019, 6:47:38 PM6 votes

AD has a "base" so that champs who don't build any can still use autoattacks. Spells already have base values, mostly scaling with spell rank but others (like Zoe's Q or passive or something; I haven't had enough whiskey to look at her stupid face on the wiki right now) scaling with champion level - which is what base AD scales on. Increasing a base value via champion level rather than spell rank means that the spell gets more powerful without the player having to do anything, like put skill points into it. Even ranking up a spell pales in comparison to buying items, which (in theory) is the most thoughtful and meaningful way to increase your champion's power.

At the end of the day, fragmenting stats like you're suggesting would further blur the line between AD - which was originally just supposed to apply to autoattacks - and AP - which was originally just supposed to apply to abilities. Would AP just be a shitty version of AD that doesn't boost autoattacks? Is AD already a shitty version of itself for "AD casters" because they don't have AS and crit? Should there be spell crit for AP users? Spell crit for AD users? Autoattack crit for AP users? Will they be anything more than "this is your primary stat and that one isn't," like strength for warriors vs dex for rogues? Would LoL be better off with DotA 2's version of stats? Should Riot manually restrict items and effects per champion (imagine if Ezreal literally could not use Spirit of the Elder Lizard, Gauntlet, Klepto, etc.)? These are rhetorical questions, by the way.

Overall, I think the biggest danger with such a major change would be the period during which Riot's still working on its balance and basic implementation, after it's already gone live (in a preseason, no doubt). If you think about it, it's no small miracle that we can tweak a champion's AD by 2 or MS by 5 and make the difference between trash and OP. Adding a new basic stat (or a major change to an existing one) would throw all that out the window for who knows how long. Is the fundamental mechanism of AP currently so bad that Riot is better off messing with it?

King Lego12/20/2019, 7:29:39 PM4 votes

As a Vel'Koz main this is a hell of a topic especially when it comes to AD vs AP.

AD has like all the luxury and diversity all the while AP is stuck with one pattern. Vel'Koz can build deathcap to be even a little threat while a Katarina can also build it and can be more threatening than the squid (Let alone one requires Ludens and the other requires a gunblade though).

One of my suggested solutions that I discarded use to be something like this: Lock the items for specific champion class. Like assassin class can only build magic pen and gunblade. Mage class can only build pure AP. AP bruisers can only build AP + HP.

The solution had too many problems so discarding that "solution" is obvious why it got discarded.

NaughtyWord12/21/2019, 2:32:04 AM3 votes

I desperately want an AP item 3077 item with health stats. Yes, melee only.

Lunar Silkworm12/21/2019, 3:19:47 AM2 votes

There are a few problems with "base AP".

First, and perhaps the most important, is that you can create a similar effect just through modifying base damage. Too much base damage and they build tanky? Too high ratios and they build burst? Ok, so look for a sweet spot.

The second (and somewhat related to the first) is that balance will punish bAP to make future purchases less impactful... but ratios already do this. Old Diana, for example (can't speak for the new one), used to have extra attack speed on her passive by default, but her base attack value was lower than normal; she wound up with higher than average attack speed at the beginning (effectively bAP), but attack speed items were less impactful for her than for other champions. This kind of functionality is already achieved just fine through AP ratios. If you're doing this only for some bAP items, you're functionally creating a completely different subclass with items tailored to it, about the equivalent as making "lethality" scale armor penetration based on a character-specific number for how "assassiny" they are. It could work, but it's not elegant at all.

The problem with AP Bruisers lies in itemization. CDR used to be a tank stat, but it got moved to being an assassin/mage stat as well, so people sacrifice very little power for their cooldowns. If AP Bruiser items had 20% CDR, a little bit of AP and some tankiness, for example, while pure-damage mage items (Rabadon's, Luden's Echo, so on) gave 0, and utility mage items (Rylai's, Rod of Ages) gave 10%, you'd have much greater differentiation because the mages would want to pop their load and leave, whereas the mages/AP Bruisers with high CDR want to survive long enough to get multiple rotations, thus putting the emphasis on their base damage and survivability more so than their AP ratios.

I used to main bruiser Diana toplane in Season 2 and got pretty far with her, and the reason was 100% itemization. Sunfire Cape deals magic damage, which means it scales better into the mid and lategame on someone who has Sorc boots and magic pen. Abyssal Scepter gave good MR, good AP, and MR reduction. My toplane Bruiser Diana was built around Sunfire + Abyssal while using her kit to stick to people, and that was fine and good until they nerfed Sunfire Cape's damage and biased the masteries more towards offense in S3. The changes to Abyssal Scepter to be purely a tank item, the changes to Wit's End so it doesn't steal MR (and thus doesn't provide indirect magic pen), making it so Haunting Guise/Liandries doesn't give pen, all of this has had a larger impact on AP bruisers who rely more on their bases.

tl;dr

The current system with AP is fine, it's just that Riot's adjustments to items, runes, and general gameplay flow have been pushing AP bruisers further and further away from viability or even feasibility. The strongest method of introducing tank/bruiser itemization would be through CDR (where tanks/bruisers rely on mid-high bases and survive to get off multiple rotations), but the game is too saturated with CDR to use it as the lever it should have been.

georg jef12/22/2019, 3:29:40 AM2 votes

This is a great idea and something new out of everything suggested on the AP bruiser issue. It has an answer to traditional AP champions abusing AP bruiser items (they can't abuse it if they have no Base AP to scale with it, right? Like going Steraks on Ivern vs Nasus, low base AD vs high base AD for example). I have a feeling a lot of people are going to misunderstand your post though and thus brush it off as too problematic. If Riot wants to make AP bruisers a thing then I think this idea should be given serious consideration.

in a hood near u12/20/2019, 8:58:01 PM1 votes

Your post mentions past problems with ap bruisers but I think you forgot to account for scaling.

Why can't we have champions who build defense early off the back of decent base damages but transitions to ap in later stages once his ap ratios scale with levels and base damage falls off? Why can't this be done with most ap juggernauts?

Obvious response is because they'll build full ap to do even more damage, but is that right? Imagine that this next ult is swains, is he going to build ap early on for 10 damage or is he going to build defense early? If a majority of a champions kit scales like this, they'll probably build defense first, but almost certainly take advantage of high ratios later on.

Ult scaling like this for example 310+.2ap, 320+.4ap, 330+.8ap. By the time you have ult and maybe 200 ap you're adding 10 damage via scaling, discouraging early ap. Then when your ratios ramp up you get ap because your ratios now incentivize it enough.

Also what are you considering an abuse case for ROA? If it's intentionally coded in the game, I don't think it's abuse.

And the same way you say lots of champions have ap scaling so AP is hard to balance, literally every champion has ad scaling. So I don't think this is a valid point as it is, even if you factor in the fact there's no base ap right now.

AP champions also have auto attacks, mana, multiple item passives, runes, etc. To say that we can only tweak cooldowns and ratios is wrong. Don't forget that muramana was optimal on ryze at one point, which shows that cds and ratios are not the only balance levers for ap champions.

Wouldn't every ap ratio still need to be balanced around building straight AP even if your proposal is used? Even ad bruisers who have triforce and steraks (the base/bonus split) are balanced around the possibility of building straight ad; straight ad sucks. The same way straight ap could suck for an ap bruiser, if they were melee.

That's the real problem btw. Which ap bruiser is melee? Mordekaiser, maybe Sylas, maybe cho, diana? Morde is doing just fine. Sylas is gutted because of pro play. And cho is cho, he will always be fine. Diana I'd call an assassin.

I'd argue ap bruiser itemization is too strong and that true ap bruiser champs just don't exist aside from Morde. Morde is one of the only melee ap champion who benefits from being in auto range all the time, the way a bruiser like Darius or Nasus does.

As a result I would refrain from a drastic change like the one you suggest and just shift scaling and base stats for the few champions who are supposed to build ap and defense. Way easier than a whole re-do of all ap champions.

Salty Mc Feed12/21/2019, 12:23:56 PM1 votes

Base AD only exists for basic attacks. All champions do basic attacks so they all have base AD, why should they also get base AP? Very strange... It has nothing to do with healthy or unhealthy items...

Voluug1312/21/2019, 3:51:04 PM1 votes

I think that this could also be somehow used to make sure that AP assassins arent the Ezreal of AP itemization.

Salvaged Vlada12/21/2019, 3:54:48 PM1 votes

AP Malphite and item 3151 Maokai

Lol okay