Glass cannon sustained damage melees(What Riot calls Skirmishers) need a dedicated Keystone.

HappyHazard07·Dec 9, 2017·25 votes·1,403 views

For perspective, I main Fiora and am not really good at the game.

So with the new grasp changes coming out I feel Riot is making an oversight. The Fiora mains Subreddit has basically confirmed that if the Grasp changes go through combined with the item changes Tanky Fiora with Titanic Hydra + Black cleaver start will make a comeback. During Pre-season it started out rough, Fiora however got better, not with any of the combat runes, but with KLEPTOMANCY, due to the nature of how pokey she is in lane with her Q counting as an auto-attack. This is not a Fiora that anyone is really excited for or wants to play. The whole play style feels cheesy and sorta flaccid. With this keystone we have actual combat power as an option again. All the current combat runes just pale in comparison to what Fervor was for Fiora.

Out of the skirmishers, Fiora is doing the best, and will likely do the best with the new bruiser changes. Yasuo, Trynd(although I hate him), and Yi all took a hit. I feel like with this class Riot's making a mistake in putting them under the same banner as bruisers cause their kits are not good for the game when they build tanky. We need a Rune that actually supports the play style of a squishy melee that can melt people. PtA doesn't work due to skirmishers as a class not being real team fighters and not benefitting off of the selfless aspect of the Rune. Lethal Tempo doesn't work as excessive attack speed isn't the best on melees, due to the nature of the melee vs ranged matchup. These are champions that shouldn't be compelled off the bat to go bruiser builds, like the grasp Rune is egging them to do. It would be better if skirmishers got a Rune that actually fit them.

There are 4 champions In this game that fit the core tenants of being a skirmisher. Fiora, Master YI, Yasuo, and Tryndamere. Everything else is either too reliant on burst(i.e. Riven) or too reliant on tank stats(Kled, Jax) Please don't forget about them. Also please add more with actually fun kits. Like seriously they have so much potential as a class to be alternative to adc's and it seems like you wish you never released them,

36 Comments

Radiant WukongDec 9, 20176 votes

Skirmishers with the only exception of Fiora are carries. Carries by definition deal the majority of their damage through AAs. So damage/as are their primary stats.

Before Fiora got reworked and had true damage thrown into her kit, she was really no different than Jax or Xin with nightmare that was Blade Waltz. Now she's more of a bruiser because she's doesn't actually rely on AS or a real top on AD to deal damage thanks to her new passive.

BattalionDec 10, 20171 votes

APC = Ability Power Carry

I'm fairly confident that Xerath is an APC/Caster. Getting zapped by his AA's is like getting the unpleasant zapping of a dollar store zapping gag.

Z3SleeperDec 10, 20172 votes

Oh no, she was alot different.

item 3077

Also I think true skirmishers don't necessarily need to be reliant on any stat but rather the core mechanics that allow them to function as skirmishers.

If attack speed is a part of their core mechanic then so be it, but i disagree with AS having to be their shoehorned primary stat.

Chembaron YamadaDec 9, 20175 votes

Camille She has the same problem, no keystone really synergizes with her kit. Hell, the most success she has right now is with Comet in the sorcery tree.... Which gets nerfed soon....

They said that they probably want to introduce more runes in the future, goal being 4 runes per row to chose from. Hopefully they will tackle that problem then.

Avios1Dec 10, 20171 votes

Camille main here, I've found the most success going Electrocute against non-tanks generally, while picking Kleptomancy vs tanks themselves, which is what I've been having the most success with, compared to the common PtA or Comet Camille.

Z3SleeperDec 10, 20171 votes

Pretty sure people go comet for the early game so their W actually does something. And boy does it do alot with Comet and Scorch.

I think she's a champ that just functions well on her own without any Keystone. So just having a Keystone to let her muscle through the early game where she isn't quite dominant helps her get to that Sheen powerspike more easily and carry her own from there.

Troll for TrumpDec 10, 20172 votes

Camille is a bruiser/diver, not a skirmisher

Chembaron YamadaDec 10, 20171 votes

I never said she is a skirmisher, just that she shares the same problem of having no keystone she synergizes with.

Z3SleeperDec 10, 20171 votes

I've seen everyone taking Comet on her. Press the Attack works too, but lets be honest, the tree sucks for any non-adc and the AS to start with sucks compared to AD for Camille.

Comet + Scorch is a godsend for Camille, especially for her level 1. That early W does insane damage when paired with Comet and Scorch.

Chembaron YamadaDec 10, 20171 votes

Yep, but this is going to get nerfs soon since Riot thinks that it is too effective for AD champions to utilise.

ChaddyFantomeDec 9, 20175 votes

PtA is perfectly fine. Ot also being helpful for teammates doesnt magically make it any less good for dueling.

Verl0hDec 9, 20174 votes

Press The Attack and Lethal Tempo are amazing. Just troll and use Predator Yi with Trinity Force.

HappyHazard07Dec 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Press The Attack and Lethal Tempo are amazing. Just troll and use Predator Yi with Trinity Force.

Except compared to fervor, they just feel bad as a melee adc. PTA is reliant on having an ally help dps an opponent which doesn’t work well in duels, which the class is made for. When using lethal tempo vs a ranged champ it’s usefulness is cut because if a ranged champ kites you then the extra attack speed doean’t Matter as you’re moving between attacks effectively lowering your attack speed after a certain level of gained attack speed. Fervor had neither of these issues.

KlydeFrogDec 9, 20171 votes

lethal tempo is in fact better then press the attack when you jungle hands down. also thunderlords decree is weak and never worth taking almost due to the high cd. hence say when i leo top i always get after shock or grasp. after shock does as much if not more damage and has less cd

Troll for TrumpDec 10, 20173 votes

Most of them do fine with PTA/Lethal Tempo: Jax : PTA "abuser" (not really, but he has good synergy) Fiora : Not sure, she's doing poorly due to the grevious wounds and tank-orientated meta Yasuo : great with PTA Tryndamere : rework this outdated man MasterYi : Yi is never strong unless he's abusing something. Prob needs an update as well

Z3SleeperDec 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

: Not sure, she's doing poorly due to the grevious wounds and tank-orientated meta

Huh, guess the "% health true damage OP, no counterplay, tanks are worthless vs Fiora" circle jerk is done eh?

Troll for TrumpDec 10, 20171 votes

It's because of Bramble and lack of keyrunes. Tanks have more synergistic runes than Fiora right now, grev wounds from Bramble and the thorns just really hurts.

Tanks can outdmg/outtrade a lot of bruisers early too, which is also a problem, especially if they go arcane comet.

She still shreds them eventually, but not early, which is fine since she's a skirmisher.

PTA is fine on her, but tanks have better options.

ªTeemoDec 10, 20172 votes

Isn't fiora good with PTA? You have auto resets and unless you somehow kill the target in 3 attacks then you get a pretty good damage boost for the rest of the fight

OnandagaDec 10, 20172 votes

I definitely agree Skirmishers are in bad spot, and I think a lot of that has to do with community bias towards Riot. Just look at how many upvotes those "Don't buff Yasuo" threads are getting, despite his abysmal winrate. Trynda, Fiora, Yi, Riven all get their fair share of hate as well and as such are kept at rock bottom winrates. Meanwhile champs like Rammus get away with disgustingly high winrates just because they don't attract as much hate and attention.

FlameHalbrdOkidoDec 9, 20171 votes

"Like seriously they have so much potential as a class to be alternative to adc's and it seems like you wish you never released them,"

instead of ADC u should say marksmen for the same reason that Radiant Wukong stated. Otherwise I completely agree with you. Why does it seem like they want marksmen to be mandatory botlane and they dont want any melee ADC's to prosper at all. Why can't melee carries be allowed to be as gud as marksmen?

MetallikaiserDec 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

"Like seriously they have so much potential as a class to be alternative to adc's and it seems like you wish you never released them,"

instead of ADC u should say marksmen for the same reason that Radiant Wukong stated. Otherwise I completely agree with you. Why does it seem like they want marksmen to be mandatory botlane and they dont want any melee ADC's to prosper at all. Why can't melee carries be allowed to be as gud as marksmen?

To be fair they tried that with my good old main Mordekaiser, and it isnt bad by virtue of it being his highest winrate role and that it stacks up slightly above average compared to competing botlaners. But it works because of kit pieces specifically designed around having a partner, which admittedly feels odd and somewhat forced and often seems to be made while compromising the champions ability to be used in other positions.

FlameHalbrdOkidoDec 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

To be fair they tried that with my good old main Mordekaiser, and it isnt bad by virtue of it being his highest winrate role and that it stacks up slightly above average compared to competing botlaners. But it works because of kit pieces specifically designed around having a partner, which admittedly feels odd and somewhat forced and often seems to be made while compromising the champions ability to be used in other positions.

Mord is good botlane because his kit pairs dmg and durability well. The same should be said for Yasuo, and Fiora, and Yi, and Riven as they all have at least one defensive ability that will allow them to deal with ranged dmg befor they can close the gap to deal theirs... so why don't we see them bot lane?

MetallikaiserDec 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Mord is good botlane because his kit pairs dmg and durability well. The same should be said for Yasuo, and Fiora, and Yi, and Riven as they all have at least one defensive ability that will allow them to deal with ranged dmg befor they can close the gap to deal theirs... so why don't we see them bot lane?

Well the reality is that this aspect to these champions is why they arent completely trash at the role (I have certainly seen adc Yasuo and Yi before. And I have certainly played Pantheon adc before.) but Morde also notably can heal his support, benefits extraordinarily by having a support who can bring cc, and most importantly has the dragon mechanic that was designed first and foremost to give him more power bot side. But ignoring these aspects Mord bot still isnt what I would exactly call popular, regardless of its actual capability. And that is because it can be a more frustrating play style, plenty of people are opposed to change, and it takes more coordination with supports then standard marksmen who tend to have larger windows of opportunity to operate from and who tend to have a greater range of supports they synergize well with.

FlameHalbrdOkidoDec 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well the reality is that this aspect to these champions is why they arent completely trash at the role (I have certainly seen adc Yasuo and Yi before. And I have certainly played Pantheon adc before.) but Morde also notably can heal his support, benefits extraordinarily by having a support who can bring cc, and most importantly has the dragon mechanic that was designed first and foremost to give him more power bot side. But ignoring these aspects Mord bot still isnt what I would exactly call popular, regardless of its actual capability. And that is because it can be a more frustrating play style, plenty of people are opposed to change, and it takes more coordination with supports then standard marksmen who tend to have larger windows of opportunity to operate from and who tend to have a greater range of supports they synergize well with.

all very tru, ur especially right about the resistance to change, cause I think thats the main reason for his lack of bot lane popularity, as most see him as a mid/top laner and resent the shoehorned changed. I think all/everything would benefit from a melee/melee-ranged shifter designed specifically for the bot lane. (Which reminds me...I played against a well coordinated Gnar ADC and supp (4got the supp champ) recently)

RainXBladeDec 9, 20171 votes

##BringBackFervorOfBattle

Gives No LuxDec 9, 20171 votes

They should call that keystone Rework.

bubbiDec 10, 20171 votes

Irelia Irelia Irelia Irelia Irelia Irelia Irelia Irelia

Blue Moon WolfDec 10, 20171 votes

Honestly Skirmishers suffer from the fact that they are more or less Melee marksmen. They are both damage dealers and from how I understand it they are both a dps class (With both classes having outliers here and there). Marksmen can rely on hiding behind their allies and deal their damage from a distance. Skirmishers on the other hand are forced to get close, where they are more likely to get CC'd and take more damage.

I don't think the issue with them is a Rune issue, but an issue with the class itself. Skirmishers have to find a balance between being able to quickly eliminate the enemy team before they get blown up and not completely out classing everyone else. A lot of Skirmishers have issues keeping that balance and are by far the popular class to throw shade on ( Riven , Fiora , Ekko , Yasuo , MasterYi to name a few) cause they keep switching between too strong or too weak.

If this is ever going to change, Skirmishers need a real niche to fill in a teamfight. Could be possible that with some tweaking, Skirmishers, in my opinion, could potentially fill the melee ADC niche bot lane, allowing Skirmishers to replaces marksmen in some circumstances, but it would require quite an overhaul to make it work.

VesemirDec 10, 20171 votes

Resolve Tree sucks way too hard to get the Undying imo. I rather get PtA or Footwork. Get life steal bloodline and go domination tree for more sustain. Not to mention you get 18% atk speed adapt from Precision. Resolve gives 150hp wtf riot.... We need Fervor back in the game...

MimrDec 10, 20171 votes

I think Fiora and Yasuo can do quite fine with Electrocute given some tuning. Especially Fiora can proc it very easily (QEE). Tryndamere and Yi can use PtA/ Lethal Tempo. While I also miss Fervor for some of my picks (Shyvana, Vi and Kled) I'm not sure if it's a bad thing that it's gone. Thing is, many skirmishers (and other melee ADs) could stack it up way too fast, and since they already walk a very thin line between being too weak or too strong, giving them an extremely snowbally keystone like Fervor only magnifies that problem. I'd rather add some base power to their kits than give them Fervor back, that way hopefully they're a bit less snowbally and more counterable.

Z3SleeperDec 10, 20171 votes

Fitty second cooldown says otherwise.

KyunseiDec 10, 20171 votes

I can confirm Tryndamere suffer from rune changes.

Sire HippingtonDec 10, 20171 votes

It's the old song of riot not aknowledgeing that melee AAs and ranged AAS are fundamentally different and thus have different needs. The main reason why old fervor worked for those kind of champs was because it stackes twice as fast on melees. Exept for grasp, non of the new runes are properly balanced for melees, they all are the same for rangeds and melees, which means if balanced around rangeds, they suck for nearly all melees. If press the attack would reduce damage you take from all sources but the marked opponent, it would be quite more appealing for melees. If energized attacks would charge faster on melees or if fleet fooswork had a longer ms duration for melees, it might be intteresting for some more melees. If Lethaltempo gave some extra ms for it's duration, or extra tenacity/slow resist, on melees so they actually can use the extra AS If base stats weren't tied to runes it would also help alot, many melees could us either grasp or some precisiion masteries, but prefer ad for the laneingphase over AS or HP