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Garen Rework (main Garen Diamond)

SantoJoe··6 votes·3,214 views

Hello:

First of all, my profile: http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=santojoe

I think I have enough experience to make some thoughts on what would make Garen a "healthy" pick.

Garen is usually seen as a big-sword-guy that deletes squishies with Q+E+R in 2,5 seconds with just 2 or at most 3 damage items while being relatively tanky.

Well, sometimes it's this guy, but, as the game evolves, some old-champions become obsolete in the new meta. This is the case with some champions (Teemo, Garen, etc).

Garen is too strong in some cases (when you are a little bit fed, and their team composition has not enough cc or tankiness to face your damage/burst--Survivavility relation) with a ""Lack of counterplay"" (if you have hexdrinker and blackcleaver at lvl 11 and you Q a Zed/Mage/Adc he'll die in 2 seconds without any help while you are able to tank too much damage from their team). It sounds great, but, in the actual meta, when you face a team who is as skilled as yours (this is what ELO system is supposed to do) they will take a meta combination, what is it?, champions with mobility.

"Dude, Garen is strong in lane and he has his Q".

Yeah, he has a good slow-cleanse on his Q, what is at the same time his only cc, but it's not a gap closer, it's just a slow-cleanse and a 35% MS boost, that means, that you are not gonna catch anyone in the enemy team if they have more than one slow or a dash (kallista+janna, nami+corki, caitlyn+leona, lucian+annie, etc, etc), there are a lot of adcs (they are usually the squshies ones) that can dash when you are casting your Q (for instance, Lucian/Graves/Ezreal can use E while you are jumping with Q) which means that they dash/jump at a "safe" distance when your Q has finished and you activate your E, which ends in a 0 dmg on your part because the "squishy" is far enough to avoid several E's hits.

"What do you want?, a real Gap-Closer while maitining your burst/tankiness?"

A mixture of both. Garen is not gonna reach the backline of the enemy team in the actual meta, it doesn't depend on your skill with Garen, it depends on if the enemy team fails or doesn't, which ends in an absurd situation "if you catch someone with Q+E+R at melee range that squishy will die, but if my team knows how Garen works and maintain the distance and the disengage spells he will be useless because he will only be able to attack my bruisers/tanks that are gonna engage on his carriers, so his damage will be extremely poor without cc for peeling"

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-sHdPjuMA)

"Well, your job is to tank damage and execute someone with your ulti at melee range"

Garen is not a tank, he has no cc for peeling his team, a tank can build tanky because it has usually damage based on your max health + damage based on enemy target max health, and at the same time, you have enough cc to engage/disengage in tfs and protect your carriers while they kill the enemy team.

If someone tries full tank or 5 tank items on Garen, he will discover that the enemy team will ignore him, because:

1: He won't deal enough damage to their backline. 2: He can't initiate a TeamFight (no real gapcloser+hard cc) 3: He can't peel for their carriers because a single-target-melee-range-silence =/= avoid enough damage from enemy team so your carry can survive.

"Of course, you have to build 2 or 3 damage items with Garen, he can't work as a real tank like Sion/Maokai/Sejuani/Mundo/Nautilus/etc".

Then, we are in the other point, if you have enough damage to kill a squishy, the enemy team will keep the distance with Garen, as he lacks a real gap closer that allow him to reach their backline. The same problems goes for Darius. For example, Hecarim, a common pick nowadays in ranked and LCS. He is viable with just 1 damage item and he can kill their backline because his ulti is a strong real gap closer with initiation potential. Also, his E is an strong MS.

"Ok, but you said a mixture of both, do you want movility and a lot of damage?"

No. I would like to see him as a fighter that, while unable to reach their carriers, he can stop the enemy frontline (tanks and other bruisers) dealing reasonable damage to them.

"But, if he can deal a reasonable amount of damage to tanks and bruisers, what would happen if he reach an enemy carry?"

The enemy adc or squishy mage won't die instantly in a Q+E+R combo. The rework I would like to see is Q and E damage based on %max health:

Q - Decisive Strike: Garen removes all slows on him and gains 35% movement speed for 1.5 / 2.25 / 3 / 3.75 / 4.5 seconds. His next melee attack within 4.5 seconds **will deal X + Y% of the target maximum health (+Z% per attack damage) physical damage **and silence his target for 2.5 seconds.

W - Courage: (Passive): Garen's Armor and Magic Resistance are permanently increased by 20% of bonus Armor and Magic Resistance.

(Active): Garen places a defensive shield on himself, decreasing all damage taken by 30% and reducing the duration of crowd control by 30% for 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 seconds. Additionally, it activates Perseverance during its duration, even if Garen suffers damage.

*Edit: *(Optional): Also, it gives nearby ally champions a defensive shield, decreasing all damage taken by X% and reducing the duration of crowd control by Y%.

Edit: (Optional2): Also, it taunts nearby enemies and force them to focus Garen for X seconds.

E- Judgment: Garen rapidly spins his sword around his body for 3 seconds **dealing X + Y% of the target maximum health (+Z% per attack damage) physical damage to nearby enemies every half second. ** Garen can deactivate Judgment early by activating the ability again after 0.5 seconds. Garen cannot use Decisive Strike or Demacian Justice while Judgment is in effect. Damage to minions is reduced by X%. Garen ignores unit collision while spinning, but takes a 20% movement speed penalty when passing through minions.

The change on W is straightforward, increase Garen's pressence on teamfights in the late game, and improving a little bit his sustain in lane phase (what top doesn't have better sustain?, "Garen's passive already give him sustain", yeah, at the cost of taking no farming for +10 seconds to avoid taking damage, I don't call that "sustain in lane")

Edit: The other tools in W would give him some kind of teamfight utility for helping his carriers (damage reduction shield) or just having more cc to control a little bit the enemy tank/bruiser.

The Q and E changes are for him to be able to build bruiser or off-tank and been able to deal reasonable amounts of damage to anyone he can catch, note that the %max health based damage ensures that if Garen catches (for some reason) a squishy target, he won't explode in 2,5 seconds while a 4-tank-items-guy is on him.

Also, he will keep their "damage dealer" version for those who likes Garen's full damage build (at the moment, Garen's Q and E scales really well with AD, at the cost of having no real gap closer and low survivavility, it's what i call, YOLO build), the AD will just increase the %max health Q and E can deal.

"But it has no sense you deal damage based on max health targets, clearly, Zed should recieve more damage from your sword than Seajuni, for instance"

Well, I think** that kind of desing fits extremelly well the theme of "Justice", you know, justice is equal for everyone,** and Garen should be an expert at delivering Justice to whoever deserves it, no matter the role or the size.

I have uploaded many Garen ranked games in Platinum-Diamond ELO: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDVUUxJxJyOWlWL8O8TfZUw

I would like to know what Riot thinks about Garen's state, in particular, after seeing the Garen pick in the LPL from the video I posted at the beggining (just in case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-sHdPjuMA)

30 Comments

Swollwonder1 votes

I dont see any reason for garen to be reworked...the only thing is his ult and thats getting buffed. He just seems strong to me dealing decent damage with only one damage item. This looks like a "buff my main just because no dash" posts to me honestly

SantoJoe4 votes

I think you didn't understand at all my point of the rework, it's not about just buff Garen, it's make him a healthy pick.

As I said, I don't see the point of being able to Q+E+R someone and blow him up while silenced. But also, I don't like when Garen is unable to deal damage or peel for his carriers. It's like... a punishment pick, it's strong if the enemy fails, but weak if the enemy is as skilled as you. The same goes for Lux or Veigar for instance, you can be the best Lux in the world, but at the end, it depends on the enemy team to dodge your skillshots or fail and get a punishment.

DanofDemacia1 votes

{quoted}

I think you didn't understand at all my point of the rework, it's not about just buff Garen, it's make him a healthy pick.

As I said, I don't see the point of being able to Q+E+R someone and blow him up while silenced. But also, I don't like when Garen is unable to deal damage or peel for his carriers. It's like... a punishment pick, it's strong if the enemy fails, but weak if the enemy is as skilled as you. The same goes for Lux or Veigar for instance, you can be the best Lux in the world, but at the end, it depends on the enemy team to dodge your skillshots or fail and get a punishment.

The demacia siblings need some love right now.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

The demacia siblings need some love right now.

lux is fine. she was suffering from a bug, that didnt apply the bonus ap scaling on her passive when she procs it with her ult. that was recently fixed.

she also has enough utility to always be relevant, even when she doesnt deal a lot of damage. when she cant carry, she can still support. that is lux strength.

DanofDemacia1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEEfqntJ,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-29T02:51:04.711+0000)

lux is fine. she was suffering from a bug, that didnt apply the bonus ap scaling on her passive when she procs it with her ult. that was recently fixed.

she also has enough utility to always be relevant, even when she doesnt deal a lot of damage.

not really. She has like no utility. A snare and a slow. If you want utility with decent damage you pick morgana, zyra or orianna. If you want long range damage you choose xerath or ziggs. I half way agree with you shes not terrible but shes ouclassed in every single way.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

not really. She has like no utility. A snare and a slow. If you want utility with decent damage you pick morgana, zyra or orianna. If you want long range damage you choose xerath or ziggs. I half way agree with you shes not terrible but shes ouclassed in every single way.

she also has her shield, that if placed properly can absorb a lot of damage on your team. especially against other mages with aoe abilities like zyra or orianna.

DanofDemacia1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEEfqntJ,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-29T03:00:09.092+0000)

she also has her shield, that if placed properly can absorb a lot of damage on your team. especially against other mages with aoe abilities like zyra or orianna.

Her shield is dumb. Its an amazing shield but i dont feel like it fits her.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Her shield is dumb. Its an amazing shield but i dont feel like it fits her.

it doesnt. she was never intended to have a shield on her w.

originally it was a stealth buff. the boomerang was supposed to stealth every champion it hit for a short duration. they changed it to a shield shortly before her release as a last resort, because the ability was too buggy and caused too many glitches.

it was at a time, where riot kept a strict release schedule and didnt delay a champion release when necessary, to fix their bugs.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

The mana cost on her E though. That must be annoying.

Saianna1 votes

No matter how much we'd want Garens rework, it won't happen.

Because it takes money. Riot loves money.

SantoJoe5 votes

I would like to avoid seeing this kind of replies. Try to be constructive. What do you think about the rework?, what do you like about it?, what would you change instead?, do you like the actual state of Garen?.

Saianna1 votes

Alright, then my feedback: As Garen i often found myself running like mad vs dashing opponents, so some kind of better gap closer instead of just MS buff on Q would be great.

Problem i see is: You try to stick %hp everywhere. And that won't pass. Instead maybe some kind of: "Target recieves x% from spin4win more damage if he's silenced" or "The longer target recieves damage from spin4win, the more damage it takes"

His change to W is something i like, maybe not with taunt (Riot dislikes taunts).

What i am surprised is: You didn't add any change to Garens ultimate, which imo is his weakest point. Before hate starts: It deals amazing damage. But only if target didn't build MR. And nowadays every champion ends the game with 80Mr~~ which blocks ~45% magic damage. So for Garen to really use his ult to fullest he'd need void staff.

I'd by happy if Garens R had small AOE around his target, like animation shockwave, where targets nearby also recieve x% of damage, or get slowed/feared/stunned

Anyways, you are asking for too much. Your rework idea is ok, but doesn't provide anything innovative. Also Garen is a "noob champ" easy to handle, easy to master. With your rework he'd have too many perks for too little risks.

SantoJoe1 votes

{quoted}

Problem i see is: You try to stick %hp everywhere. And that won't pass.

Why?, is there any reason?, at least E should have it in my opinion.

Instead maybe some kind of: "Target recieves x% from spin4win more damage if he's silenced"

This is not a good solution because, as I said, Garen has sometimes some kind of lack of counterplay, in many of my videos, I can Q+E+R an assasin/adc/mage and blow him up in 2,5 sec while they are unable to do anything, which is, in my opnion, absurd. But at the same time, it's the only thing you can do. Garen has an assasin-like playstyle (silence for 2,5 sec an squishy and kill him) and at the same time a bruiser problem (how do you reach your target without a real gap closer?). Adding just flat damage to the combo is not the solution, it would just make him better when his lack- of- counterplay moment comes out.

or "The longer target recieves damage from spin4win, the more damage it takes"

It's more or less the same as before, increasing the damage versus squishies while not fixing the problem with being kited, it would be overpowered sometimes and as frustraiting as it's now because you can't reach your target.

His change to W is something i like, maybe not with taunt (Riot dislikes taunts).

If the taunt is not a good solution, the shield would give him a powerfull tool to help the team, and it would make him a more-difficult-that-atm champion to master, if they balance it, you should use the ability in the right moment so your team can reduce a lot of incoming damage, it should need a lot of knowledge about when to use it, what the enemy team's abilities damage are, etc.

What i am surprised is: You didn't add any change to Garens ultimate, which imo is his weakest point. Before hate starts: It deals amazing damage. But only if target didn't build MR. And nowadays every champion ends the game with 80Mr~~ which blocks ~45% magic damage. So for Garen to really use his ult to fullest he'd need void staff.

True. I was thinking about a true damage execute. "OMG what are you talking about, you are crazy". Balancing the damage. That means, lower a lot the base damage and the scaling on missing health so that it doesn't kill a 50% squishy if you are at lvl 16 and he is at lvl 12, but it would be enough powerfull to fulfill its purpose, execute a low-%-health target, that's, 20%-30% maybe?, well, numbers are subject to changes of course.

I'd by happy if Garens R had small AOE around his target, like animation shockwave, where targets nearby also recieve x% of damage, or get slowed/feared/stunned

Adding a cc to his ulti can work too, but, if it's gonna keep its "execute" behavior it should activate the cc when you land it right and finish a target, for instance, if you execute a target with R, enemy champions will be slowed by % for X seconds. Or something like that.

Anyways, you are asking for too much. Your rework idea is ok, but doesn't provide anything innovative. Also Garen is a "noob champ" easy to handle, easy to master. With your rework he'd have too many perks for too little risks.

To be honest, it's not a rework, it's more a needed change. I tried with those ideas giving him more counterplay (Q+E+R combo is broken sometimes) while giving him other tools to incresing his mastery (W AoE shield). He would deal less burst damage to squishies but he would be able to do something in teamfights.

Saianna1 votes

%hp on his E would work i think.

Also Garens ultimate used to be true damage. He was the only one to get it removed because of reasons.

Best way to think of how his damage on R should be is comparing it with some finishers of other champions (darius, cho, nidalee, kha,)

GL fighting for better tomorrow for Garen mains :)

GloriousKaiser1 votes

I love how badly the shoutcasters wanted Garen to seem awesome, but man, it's just not showing for me there. To be fair, he was ignored because he built no damage. But there's the problem. His strengths are horribly overrated and his weaknesses shine through. Look at MaoKai, look at Garen. You see who was much more useful? Who provided more for the team? Who provided more for themselves? And who got the better payoff in the end for those?

**A lot of people like to base Garen's strength purely off who he can fight in lane Riven Darius etc **

I'm not going to make any statements on whether or not Garen needs reworks or not, because I simply don't know. But I do know that he is not up to par, and fails to perform in line with the rest of the roster. He fell out of favor a LONG time ago. It's sad to see he can't measure up because there's always a better specialist and his general skills are of no use.

I'm just gonna throw out some general thoughts on what you said.

Garen is too strong in some cases (when you are a little bit fed, and their team composition has not enough cc or tankiness to face your damage/burst--Survivavility relation) with a ""Lack of counterplay"" (if you have hexdrinker and blackcleaver at lvl 11 and you Q a Zed/Mage/Adc he'll die in 2 seconds without any help while you are able to tank too much damage from their team). It sounds great, but, in the actual meta, when you face a team who is as skilled as yours (this is what ELO system is supposed to do) they will take a meta combination, what is it?, champions with mobility.

True he's borderline oppressive to casters but even those casters CAN counter Garen with general play. If Garen goes up against a mage, that mage always has counterplay available. Assassins too. In fact, anyone with a lick of CC can keep Garen off them if they play smart. He depends too much on enemy mistakes rather his own play planning. Garen

Yeah, he has a good slow-cleanse on his Q, what is at the same time his only cc, but it's not a gap closer, it's just a slow-cleanse and a 35% MS boost, that means, that you are not gonna catch anyone in the enemy team if they have more than one slow or a dash (kallista+janna, nami+corki, caitlyn+leona, lucian+annie, etc, etc), there are a lot of adcs (they are usually the squshies ones) that can dash when you are casting your Q (for instance, Lucian/Graves/Ezreal can use E while you are jumping with Q) which means that they dash/jump at a "safe" distance when your Q has finished and you activate your E, which ends in a 0 dmg on your part because the "squishy" is far enough to avoid several E's hits.

Agreed. It's the general concensus that the champions you mention, are supposed to keep melees off. But with Garen, he can't counter/outplay those champions. He can't do anything after he forces them to blow a skill. He has no contingency to deal with not getting his wanted results. If he fails, to catch up, he has to run away. At the least, other champions can play around getting CC sent their way.

"What do you want?, a real Gap-Closer while maitining your burst/tankiness?" A mixture of both. Garen is not gonna reach the backline of the enemy team in the actual meta, it doesn't depend on your skill with Garen, it depends on if the enemy team fails or doesn't, which ends in an absurd situation "if you catch someone with Q+E+R at melee range that squishy will die, but if my team knows how Garen works and maintain the distance and the disengage spells he will be useless because he will only be able to attack my bruisers/tanks that are gonna engage on his carriers, so his damage will be extremely poor without cc for peeling" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-sHdPjuMA)

Agreed here. I can confirm this.

"Well, your job is to tank damage and execute someone with your ulti at melee range" Garen is not a tank, he has no cc for peeling his team, a tank can build tanky because it has usually damage based on your max health + damage based on enemy target max health, and at the same time, you have enough cc to engage/disengage in tfs and protect your carriers while they kill the enemy team.

THIS SO MUCH THIS!!!

If someone tries full tank or 5 tank items on Garen, he will discover that the enemy team will ignore him, because:

1: He won't deal enough damage to their backline. 2: He can't initiate a TeamFight (no real gapcloser+hard cc) 3: He can't peel for their carriers because a single-target-melee-range-silence =/= avoid enough damage from enemy team so your carry can survive.

"But I can killsteal finish people with my ult. It does tons of damage!! item 3155

"Of course, you have to build 2 or 3 damage items with Garen, he can't work as a real tank like Sion/Maokai/Sejuani/Mundo/Nautilus/etc".

My problem is that he has to build too many stats to be useful. Riven needs only AD to perform well, and she can even disregard boots because of her in combat mobility. Then we look at Garen.

Health, Armor, Magic Resist, AD, Crit, Movement speed. "But all bruisers/fighters build those!!" Yeah well all bruisers/fighters have real gapclosers and cc in their kits. Oh and Burst. Garen doesn't Burst down anyone. He spins on them for 3 seconds hoping they're cc'd or dumb enough to stand in the circle of death. THEN he bursts with the Big Sword.

The AD is put to use too weakly in his kit. The Q is the only reliable way to deal damage but even then he's gotta be close. The E IMO is too slow in damaging because it takes 3 seconds to get the full effect. Also, damn the crit, I got enough problems having to build a bunch of other stats to stay relevant.

Then, we are in the other point, if you have enough damage to kill a squishy, the enemy team will keep the distance with Garen, as he lacks a real gap closer that allow him to reach their backline. The same problems goes for Darius.

This, but Darius pull is at least a good way to force skills because he forces them to blow escapes or stay Melee.

"Ok, but you said a mixture of both, do you want mobility and a lot of damage?" No. I would like to see him as a fighter that, while unable to reach their carriers, he can stop the enemy frontline (tanks and other bruisers) dealing reasonable damage to them.

I like this, but I want him to be able to kill squishies quicker. Because he deserves to be rewarded with being scary to squishes if he can fight through a frontline.

"But, if he can deal a reasonable amount of damage to tanks and bruisers, what would happen if he reach an enemy carry?"

The enemy adc or squishy mage won't die instantly in a Q+E+R combo. The rework I would like to see is Q and E damage based on %max health:

But then they'd run away. And kite. And go back to their old shenanigans. He still gets kited by the kiters and he's still sad. Difference is, you gave him %damage. I know he shouldn't just up and murder squishies and ignore CC but he should be able to wade through a storm if he's strong.

Snipped your proposed changes.

The change on W is straightforward, increase Garen's pressence on teamfights in the late game, and improving a little bit his sustain in lane phase (what top doesn't have better sustain?, "Garen's passive already give him sustain", yeah, at the cost of taking no farming for +10 seconds to avoid taking damage, I don't call that "sustain in lane")

I like this change a lot. But what about this idea? Add, rework, anything: If Garen receives damage (can be speicified to what), he heals for Y% if his health for Z seconds.

The Q and E changes are for him to be able to build bruiser or off-tank and been able to deal reasonable amounts of damage to anyone he can catch, note that the %max health based damage ensures that if Garen catches (for some reason) a squishy target, he won't explode in 2,5 seconds while a 4-tank-items-guy is on him.

Cool, but is there any other way we can make him mechanically better? I still think squishies should die if caught by Garen, he has very little sticking power and he should be rewarded if he manages to even touch a mobile champion. But at the same time, can we make it so he can create more of these opportunities?

Also, he will keep their "damage dealer" version for those who likes Garen's full damage build (at the moment, Garen's Q and E scales really well with AD, at the cost of having no real gap closer and low survivavility, it's what i call, YOLO build), the AD will just increase the %max health Q and E can deal.

"But it has no sense you deal damage based on max health targets, clearly, Zed should recieve more damage from your sword than Seajuni, for instance"

Well, I think** that kind of desing fits extremelly well the theme of "Justice", you know, justice is equal for everyone,** and Garen should be an expert at delivering Justice to whoever deserves it, no matter the role or the size.

Generally agreed, but adding %damage won't solve the latent problems of kiting. That's a problem that should be fixed. Not removed, fixed.

But I really think that in the end. #LC$BIGPLAY$ are what matter. Because look at all the new champions. Riot tries to add a new mechanic every time they make a new champion. Garen has pretty much nothing unique anymore. He has no real specialty. He needs more niche power, but just in general, more power.

SantoJoe2 votes

{quoted}

I like this change a lot. But what about this idea? Add, rework, anything: If Garen receives damage (can be speicified to what), he heals for Y% if his health for Z seconds.

It could work, but I think that the current mechanic is more challenging, you have to do something in order to recieve the heal, with this idea, it would be just a "don't worry, if you recieve damage, you'll be healed". I don't know how miuch the number of the heal should be nerfed in order to make it balanced.

Cool, but is there any other way we can make him mechanically better? I still think squishies should die if caught by Garen, he has very little sticking power and he should be rewarded if he manages to even touch a mobile champion. But at the same time, can we make it so he can create more of these opportunities?

Talking about Deep mechanics changes. For instance, Courage (W) could have some kind of taunt or % damage reuction extension to nearby allies (Garen doesn't have a lot of cc for peeling, but at least he could give their team a nice tool to 'Resist' the damage.

Generally agreed, but adding %damage won't solve the latent problems of kiting. That's a problem that should be fixed. Not removed, fixed.

Garen needs to be strong in something, at the cost of having disadvantages and counterplay. Clearly, he can be easily kited, but with those changes, he would have a chance at facing the enemy team frontline. He would be good at doing damage to anyone that dares to kill his carry. and with the other change on W that I said, he could help a lot to their team, in fact, when you activate W, he usually shout something that encourage to hold and resist.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

imo he doesnt need a larger rework.

just some number changes, and little tweaks that help him in the lategame.

  • have the cooldown of his q start, when he activates the ability. theyd probably increase the cooldown to compensate though. but it could go down with ability rank, so you end up with being able to spam the ability by lategame - 7 seconds cooldown at rank 5, which means at 40% cdr you could constantly spam the ability, similar to how udyr can spam his bear stance. combined with the slow cleanse, this gives him a lot more chasing power and mobility, even without a hard gap closer.

  • slightly increased crit scaling on the spin, and 1 or 2 seconds cooldown shaved off of the ability by rank 5.

  • the removal of the self slow on the rank 5 spin, since it seriously hinders his ability to stick in jungle chases or in teamfights down the lanes. it was intended as an early game mechanic, but screws him over much too often even later on.

if they do these things one at a time and see how it works out, this would already add up to a pretty good lategame buff to his utility, and duelling potential, while not touching his early game.

the only other possible buff i could see beyond all this, was an increased armor/mr bonus from his w. maybe a few extra %. since this is another mechanic that allows him to scale better into lategame. (maybe 1% per w level added, starting at 21% and adding up to 25% at rank 5).

SantoJoe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEEfqntJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-29T02:11:17.397+0000)

imo he doesnt need a larger rework.

I agree, It's more about some changes on his spells.

  • have the cooldown of his q start, when he activates the ability. theyd probably increase the cooldown to compensate though. but it could go down with ability rank, so you end up with being able to spam the ability by lategame - 7 seconds cooldown at rank 5, which means at 40% cdr you could constantly spam the ability, similar to how udyr can spam his bear stance. combined with the slow cleanse, this gives him a lot more chasing power and mobility, even without a hard gap closer.

Permasilence in the late game?, it would be too broken, I don't think it's a good solution to fix his problem.

  • slightly increased crit scaling on the spin, and 1 or 2 seconds cooldown shaved off of the ability by rank 5.

Riot doesn't like crit anymore, and they talked about remove crit from Garen's kit and other champs. increasing flat damage to his Q+E+R combo is not the best solution, it's just to make him better in his lackofcounterplay moment and as worst as he is right now when he can't reach his target.

  • the removal of the self slow on the rank 5 spin, since it seriously hinders his ability to stick in jungle chases or in teamfights down the lanes. it was intended as an early game mechanic, but screws him over much too often even later on.

Not a bad idea, but it would only help him when no minions are around.

Ser Garland1 votes

Why do garen players pick Merc treads over boots of swiftness. He NEEDS boots of swiftness, that's just the kind of champ he is. This chinese pro also seems to pop his ult too soon. Also the teleport meta is probably an indirect nerf to Garen as I find he does better with Ignite.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ser Garland,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEEfqntJ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-03-29T02:16:11.271+0000)

Why do garen players pick Merc treads over boots of swiftness. He NEEDS boots of swiftness, that's just the kind of champ he is. This chinese pro also seems to pop his ult too soon. Also the teleport meta is probably an indirect nerf to Garen as I find he does better with Ignite.

because not every opponent has slows. i agree, that swifties are situationally good on him. but merc treads also add mr, that is amplified by his w passive. and they cut any form of cc in half together with his w active.

you could aswell ask, why irelia players are building merc treads, when she has tenacity on her passive. because it stacks. multiplicative, but it stacks.

SantoJoe1 votes

I usually pick mercury treads, you can obtain +15 ms with quintaessences, instead of +7,5 AD damage. Your goal is to reach the target, you need to reduce as much as possible the duration of the incoming cc effects and 7,5 AD doesn't help you too much in killing your target, it helps in early lane phase, but the problem is in the mid-late game when teamfights appears. Also, you already have a slow-cleanse in Q, and mercury treads reduce the duration of slows too. I think it's the best option in general, nevermind, if the enemy team has a lot of AD damage or AA based champs (Ezreal AD mid, Lucian ADC bot, Rengar Jungle or Aatrox in top, for instance) Tabi is a better option.

Sooko1 votes

I like most of the ideas, except the taunt one on his W. Garen is made extremelly tanky thanks to it, and having a point-blank AoE taunt that isn't an ultimate nor channelled would probably make him win teamfights as well as being a great bully, not to mention enhancing an already strong skill (although perserverance on his W does sound cool).

I think what Garen needs is enough CC to protect his carries, rather than an initiation. He has tankiness, with your suggestions he will have his damage/tankiness issues fixed (which is good), but he will still have the problem of being kited for too long to actually do anything relevant, or not doing enough to save the squishies in his team.

Why not adding a condition to his ult: If Garen's Demacian Justice kills an enemy, it slightly knocks back nearby enemy champions?

Or something else for his Q: Garen also gives his enemy a debuff that increases allied crowd control on him by 10% (doesn't work for CC that isn't affected by Tenacity such as Knock-ups and suppressions)

This way, Garen will be able to let his allies kite his enemies by giving them negative tenacity, and be a little more disruptive even if just a little bit, not to mention helping lock down those pesky Katarinas/Yasuos/Zeds that keep dashing and blinking everywhere.

SantoJoe1 votes

{quoted}

I like most of the ideas, except the taunt one on his W. Garen is made extremelly tanky thanks to it, and having a point-blank AoE taunt that isn't an ultimate nor channelled would probably make him win teamfights as well as being a great bully, not to mention enhancing an already strong skill (although perserverance on his W does sound cool).

I think what Garen needs is enough CC to protect his carries, rather than an initiation. He has tankiness, with your suggestions he will have his damage/tankiness issues fixed (which is good), but he will still have the problem of being kited for too long to actually do anything relevant, or not doing enough to save the squishies in his team.

This is why I also added the option of the AoE shield from his W, it would increase his mastery and he would be able to protect his team in a diferent way than a support or a full tank do.

Why not adding a condition to his ult: If Garen's Demacian Justice kills an enemy, it slightly knocks back nearby enemy champions?

It could work, I was thinking on an AoE slow on R when it finishes a target.

Silents4291 votes

I like him as is. I want his ult buffed to be a bit more up to par with all the other executes champions have. But like every champion he has his place in games, and shouldn't be setup to have a place in every game. He does good against teams he can punish, but bad against teams that can keep him away from the carry, which is perfectly fine.

SantoJoe1 votes

He might be fine at bronze because he is easy to master and has a lack of counterplay, but as you go up in ELO system you discover that he fails in a lot of games. It's not a "make Garen good in every game", it's "give him tools to help the team while remove his lack of counterplay".

Silents4291 votes

Garen does fine in higher elo games too, he is godlike at punishing mistakes, while not as often as in lower elo they still happen. And he sees plenty of ranked play.

And what lack of counterplay do you speak of?

I do recall kiting people counterplay, his ult is the weakest execute in the game, and well just don't be low health, or in the short range his ult has. Poke him whenever he is attempting to heal his passive.

And I feel like you misunderstand what his role in the game is during a team fight. He might not be initiating fights, or protecting his carry, but the enemy team damn well better have someone protecting theirs, since Garens kit is made to allow him to charge the front lines to the backlines and take out a carry, which itself is counterplay given it isn't burst and has time to be stopped.

He might not work the best in higher elos but not every champion will anyway, no reason to give him a second rework.

SantoJoe1 votes

{quoted}

Garen does fine in higher elo games too, he is godlike at punishing mistakes, while not as often as in lower elo they still happen. And he sees plenty of ranked play.

Well, in fact, at high ELO, where mistakes are less seen, Garen is not a good pick, as I said previously, as you go up in the ELO system you'll see less and less Garen/Darius/fighters without a real gap closer/high utility.

Also, it punishes mistakes, that's, "ey, pick Garen, just in case the enemy team is bad, if they are as good as Garen, they'll win, let's see what happen", I don't think it's a good idea of "funny-design".

And what lack of counterplay do you speak of?

I don't know why I linked youtube in the first post if everyone is gonna reply without watching it xD.

Anyways, lack of counterplay when you Flash+Q+E+R while using the active of randuin, a 2,5 sec silence target ability that allow you to blow up a squishy target if he is not well protected.

"it's what an assasin can do", at the moment, there is no assasin able to cc you for 2,5 sec while been able to resist a reasonable focus from the enemy team and dealing insane burst to squishies.

"then, Garen is better than assasins?", No, he don't have a gap closer, and his burst takes time (around 3-4 seconds), so, if the enemy team is as skilled as Garen's, he won't be able to anything.

I do recall kiting people counterplay, his ult is the weakest execute in the game, and well just don't be low health, or in the short range his ult has. Poke him whenever he is attempting to heal his passive.

Of course, when enemy team can kite Garen forever, he becomes a useless champion, one of the most useless picks. This is what I have been saying for days in this post. Too strong sometimes, with a lack of counterplay, too useless when enemy team knows how to counter, because he has almost 0 utility.

And I feel like you misunderstand what his role in the game is during a team fight. He might not be initiating fights,

Ofc, he can't because no real gap closer.

or protecting his carry,

Ofc, no heavy cc to stop enemies.

but the enemy team damn well better have someone protecting theirs,

Ofc, support with cc and adc with dashes.

since Garens kit is made to allow him to charge the front lines to the backlines and take out a carry, which itself is counterplay given it isn't burst and has time to be stopped.

Sorry but it's not true. Running without a gap closer doesn't allow someone to charge the front lines to backlines, even if you reach the backline, there is still a support/mid and an adc with mobility that can kite you while their bruisers/tanks disrupt your team.

It's the problem, if you can reach easily an squishy, it's op because you can deal a lot of damage to him while being able to tank. But if you can't reach them, you can't deal neither damage nor help your carriers.

He might not work the best in higher elos but not every champion will anyway, no reason to give him a second rework.

I'm gonna start to ignore some replies that doesn't offer anything to the disscusion xD. It's like you don't want to improve the game, it's not about "make X champion op", it's just "let's try to make old champions playable in the actual meta without making them dominant".

So, there are other champions that are only viable at low ELO, so there is no reason to change them in order to be played in other categories. Best reasoning ever, I would like to know if this is Riot philosophy, if so, I'll stop trying to improve the game.

Silents4291 votes

Well, in fact, at high ELO, where mistakes are less seen, Garen is not a good pick, as I said previously, as you go up in the ELO system you'll see less and less Garen/Darius/fighters without a real gap closer/high utility.

Also, it punishes mistakes, that's, "ey, pick Garen, just in case the enemy team is bad, if they are as good as Garen, they'll win, let's see what happen", I don't think it's a good idea of "funny-design".

Diamond players make mistakes, and always will. LCS players make mistakes and always will. And as long as someone goes out of line the slightest Garen capitalizes on it. He is an effective lane bully, that doesn't have many counters top lane. Go watch a stonewall video, he's played Garen a few times in ranked and talked about where he fits.

I don't know why I linked youtube in the first post if everyone is gonna reply without watching it xD.

Anyways, lack of counterplay when you Flash+Q+E+R while using the active of randuin, a 2,5 sec silence target ability that allow you to blow up a squishy target if he is not well protected.

Yeah it's like your team doesn't exist or something, I thought they had team work in your elo? If you can't counter a friggin Garen combo then holy hell.

allow you to blow up a squishy target if he is not well protected.

Yes god forbid we allow champions like that to exist.

"it's what an assasin can do", at the moment, there is no assasin able to cc you for 2,5 sec while been able to resist a reasonable focus from the enemy team and dealing insane burst to squishies.

Considering we had like 4 seasons of mages with silences and gap closers, I don't think it's pushing anyone that Garen can run up to someone and silence them. Granted I think it should be nerfed to 2 seconds.

"then, Garen is better than assasins?", No, he don't have a gap closer, and his burst takes time (around 3-4 seconds), so, if the enemy team is as skilled as Garen's, he won't be able to anything.

Then why the hell do you yack about him lacking counterplay? That IS counterplay.

Of course, when enemy team can kite Garen forever, he becomes a useless champion, one of the most useless picks. This is what I have been saying for days in this post. Too strong sometimes, with a lack of counterplay, too useless when enemy team knows how to counter, because he has almost 0 utility.

And yet item 3009 item 3143 item 3800 exist.

No gap closers, No heavy CC, cant protect carry

He isn't suppose too, how many tanks do you know that can full on charge to a backline? Garen is most useful as a followup initiation like Volibear, and if the enemy turns to stop you, they aren't focusing your team, and you are doing what a tank would want in a team fight.

Hell at this point it might be easier to label him as a bruiser.

Sorry but it's not true. Running without a gap closer doesn't allow someone to charge the front lines to backlines, even if you reach the backline, there is still a support/mid and an adc with mobility that can kite you while their bruisers/tanks disrupt your team.

It's the problem, if you can reach easily an squishy, it's op because you can deal a lot of damage to him while being able to tank. But if you can't reach them, you can't deal neither damage nor help your carriers.

Holy shit what morons do you play that can't 4v2?

He had build in tenacity, and percent damage reduction, if you use his Q after the slows or CC nothing stops you from running in the back. Your E allows high damage, and to damage anyone attempting to stop you, when suddenly you ult and finish off the enemy carry.

And having them focus you is going to give an upperhand to your allies, if the enemy is going to blow cooldowns on you. I mean seriously late game Garen doesn't die easily, even when pitted against a last whisper.

All in all, Garen is fine. He struggles with the low mobility vs high mobility champions, but the solution that isn't giving the low mobility champions more mobility. Unlike some champions he has his place in the game and receives more then enough play.

SantoJoe1 votes

{quoted}

Diamond players make mistakes, and always will. LCS players make mistakes and always will. And as long as someone goes out of line the slightest Garen capitalizes on it. He is an effective lane bully, that doesn't have many counters top lane. Go watch a stonewall video, he's played Garen a few times in ranked and talked about where he fits.

Yeah it's like your team doesn't exist or something, I thought they had team work in your elo? If you can't counter a friggin Garen combo then holy hell.

Yes god forbid we allow champions like that to exist.

Considering we had like 4 seasons of mages with silences and gap closers, I don't think it's pushing anyone that Garen can run up to someone and silence them. Granted I think it should be nerfed to 2 seconds.

Then why the hell do you yack about him lacking counterplay? That IS counterplay.

And yet item 3009 item 3143 item 3800 exist.

He isn't suppose too, how many tanks do you know that can full on charge to a backline? Garen is most useful as a followup initiation like Volibear, and if the enemy turns to stop you, they aren't focusing your team, and you are doing what a tank would want in a team fight.

Hell at this point it might be easier to label him as a bruiser.

Holy shit what morons do you play that can't 4v2?

He had build in tenacity, and percent damage reduction, if you use his Q after the slows or CC nothing stops you from running in the back. Your E allows high damage, and to damage anyone attempting to stop you, when suddenly you ult and finish off the enemy carry.

And having them focus you is going to give an upperhand to your allies, if the enemy is going to blow cooldowns on you. I mean seriously late game Garen doesn't die easily, even when pitted against a last whisper.

I think I have answered already everything, sorry, but I can't explain AGAIN everything. Just, play more ranked games with Garen, you'll see a lot of things.

All in all, Garen is fine. He struggles with the low mobility vs high mobility champions, but the solution that isn't giving the low mobility champions more mobility. Unlike some champions he has his place in the game and receives more then enough play.

I think nobody asked for more mobility on low mobility champions, take a look again at the changes I proposed.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Fighters do not need to exist. The fighter problem is rampant and Riot has stated that they intend to rework the entire role, define it, and fix it, and that means redistributing.

Garen is the quintessential fighter, a tanky dps champion. His lore, his image, everything suggests that he should pack a punch but that he should also be able to take one. He's not light on his feet like Yi or Tryndamere and he's not all bulk and no muscle like Malphite or Maokai.

Here's the problem. That's not healthy for game balance.

Garen can either be a melee carry or he can be a tank. He can't be both, and encouraging Riot to continue the fighter problem will just cause them to put it on the back burner longer.

So, here is my suggestion: Make Garen a tank and accept that he will not be able to deal large amounts of damage.

Passive - Perseverance - No longer removed by monsters. Now refreshes after 7 seconds at level 1.

Q - Decisive Strike - Garen leaps towards an enemy in a targeted area of effect, but the enemy can still dash out of it, like Jayce's To the Skies!!. He deals a small amount of physical damage and silences enemies struck in the area of effect for 1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2.0 seconds.

Less damage, no slow cleanse, no mobility, but a gap closer with some counter play and an AOE silence. (The AOE would be very small, like To The Skies!!, about as large as the AOE on Corki's Phosphorous Bomb)

W - Honor Above All - Garen slams his sword into the ground and puts up his dukes. He taunts the closest enemy to him for 1.5 seconds, but during that duration, Garen is taunted as well and only attacks with his punch animation. While taunted, the adjacent enemy loses 10/15/20/25/30 MR.

The return of the Garen punch! A strong cc that when timed appropriately can open up for your burst mage to take someone out hard, as opposed to Rammus's Puncturing Taunt that encourages the ADC to do their thing.

E - Judgment - Spin to Win! The same, for nostalgia's sake, but whenever his E would critically strike, it applies a 20% slow that stacks with itself up to 3 times.

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