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Garen Rework (main Garen Diamond)

SantoJoe·3/28/2015, 11:37:40 PM·6 votes·3,214 views

Hello:

First of all, my profile: http://euw.op.gg/summoner/userName=santojoe

I think I have enough experience to make some thoughts on what would make Garen a "healthy" pick.

Garen is usually seen as a big-sword-guy that deletes squishies with Q+E+R in 2,5 seconds with just 2 or at most 3 damage items while being relatively tanky.

Well, sometimes it's this guy, but, as the game evolves, some old-champions become obsolete in the new meta. This is the case with some champions (Teemo, Garen, etc).

Garen is too strong in some cases (when you are a little bit fed, and their team composition has not enough cc or tankiness to face your damage/burst--Survivavility relation) with a ""Lack of counterplay"" (if you have hexdrinker and blackcleaver at lvl 11 and you Q a Zed/Mage/Adc he'll die in 2 seconds without any help while you are able to tank too much damage from their team). It sounds great, but, in the actual meta, when you face a team who is as skilled as yours (this is what ELO system is supposed to do) they will take a meta combination, what is it?, champions with mobility.

"Dude, Garen is strong in lane and he has his Q".

Yeah, he has a good slow-cleanse on his Q, what is at the same time his only cc, but it's not a gap closer, it's just a slow-cleanse and a 35% MS boost, that means, that you are not gonna catch anyone in the enemy team if they have more than one slow or a dash (kallista+janna, nami+corki, caitlyn+leona, lucian+annie, etc, etc), there are a lot of adcs (they are usually the squshies ones) that can dash when you are casting your Q (for instance, Lucian/Graves/Ezreal can use E while you are jumping with Q) which means that they dash/jump at a "safe" distance when your Q has finished and you activate your E, which ends in a 0 dmg on your part because the "squishy" is far enough to avoid several E's hits.

"What do you want?, a real Gap-Closer while maitining your burst/tankiness?"

A mixture of both. Garen is not gonna reach the backline of the enemy team in the actual meta, it doesn't depend on your skill with Garen, it depends on if the enemy team fails or doesn't, which ends in an absurd situation "if you catch someone with Q+E+R at melee range that squishy will die, but if my team knows how Garen works and maintain the distance and the disengage spells he will be useless because he will only be able to attack my bruisers/tanks that are gonna engage on his carriers, so his damage will be extremely poor without cc for peeling"

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-sHdPjuMA)

"Well, your job is to tank damage and execute someone with your ulti at melee range"

Garen is not a tank, he has no cc for peeling his team, a tank can build tanky because it has usually damage based on your max health + damage based on enemy target max health, and at the same time, you have enough cc to engage/disengage in tfs and protect your carriers while they kill the enemy team.

If someone tries full tank or 5 tank items on Garen, he will discover that the enemy team will ignore him, because:

1: He won't deal enough damage to their backline. 2: He can't initiate a TeamFight (no real gapcloser+hard cc) 3: He can't peel for their carriers because a single-target-melee-range-silence =/= avoid enough damage from enemy team so your carry can survive.

"Of course, you have to build 2 or 3 damage items with Garen, he can't work as a real tank like Sion/Maokai/Sejuani/Mundo/Nautilus/etc".

Then, we are in the other point, if you have enough damage to kill a squishy, the enemy team will keep the distance with Garen, as he lacks a real gap closer that allow him to reach their backline. The same problems goes for Darius. For example, Hecarim, a common pick nowadays in ranked and LCS. He is viable with just 1 damage item and he can kill their backline because his ulti is a strong real gap closer with initiation potential. Also, his E is an strong MS.

"Ok, but you said a mixture of both, do you want movility and a lot of damage?"

No. I would like to see him as a fighter that, while unable to reach their carriers, he can stop the enemy frontline (tanks and other bruisers) dealing reasonable damage to them.

"But, if he can deal a reasonable amount of damage to tanks and bruisers, what would happen if he reach an enemy carry?"

The enemy adc or squishy mage won't die instantly in a Q+E+R combo. The rework I would like to see is Q and E damage based on %max health:

Q - Decisive Strike: Garen removes all slows on him and gains 35% movement speed for 1.5 / 2.25 / 3 / 3.75 / 4.5 seconds. His next melee attack within 4.5 seconds **will deal X + Y% of the target maximum health (+Z% per attack damage) physical damage **and silence his target for 2.5 seconds.

W - Courage: (Passive): Garen's Armor and Magic Resistance are permanently increased by 20% of bonus Armor and Magic Resistance.

(Active): Garen places a defensive shield on himself, decreasing all damage taken by 30% and reducing the duration of crowd control by 30% for 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 seconds. Additionally, it activates Perseverance during its duration, even if Garen suffers damage.

*Edit: *(Optional): Also, it gives nearby ally champions a defensive shield, decreasing all damage taken by X% and reducing the duration of crowd control by Y%.

Edit: (Optional2): Also, it taunts nearby enemies and force them to focus Garen for X seconds.

E- Judgment: Garen rapidly spins his sword around his body for 3 seconds **dealing X + Y% of the target maximum health (+Z% per attack damage) physical damage to nearby enemies every half second. ** Garen can deactivate Judgment early by activating the ability again after 0.5 seconds. Garen cannot use Decisive Strike or Demacian Justice while Judgment is in effect. Damage to minions is reduced by X%. Garen ignores unit collision while spinning, but takes a 20% movement speed penalty when passing through minions.

The change on W is straightforward, increase Garen's pressence on teamfights in the late game, and improving a little bit his sustain in lane phase (what top doesn't have better sustain?, "Garen's passive already give him sustain", yeah, at the cost of taking no farming for +10 seconds to avoid taking damage, I don't call that "sustain in lane")

Edit: The other tools in W would give him some kind of teamfight utility for helping his carriers (damage reduction shield) or just having more cc to control a little bit the enemy tank/bruiser.

The Q and E changes are for him to be able to build bruiser or off-tank and been able to deal reasonable amounts of damage to anyone he can catch, note that the %max health based damage ensures that if Garen catches (for some reason) a squishy target, he won't explode in 2,5 seconds while a 4-tank-items-guy is on him.

Also, he will keep their "damage dealer" version for those who likes Garen's full damage build (at the moment, Garen's Q and E scales really well with AD, at the cost of having no real gap closer and low survivavility, it's what i call, YOLO build), the AD will just increase the %max health Q and E can deal.

"But it has no sense you deal damage based on max health targets, clearly, Zed should recieve more damage from your sword than Seajuni, for instance"

Well, I think** that kind of desing fits extremelly well the theme of "Justice", you know, justice is equal for everyone,** and Garen should be an expert at delivering Justice to whoever deserves it, no matter the role or the size.

I have uploaded many Garen ranked games in Platinum-Diamond ELO: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDVUUxJxJyOWlWL8O8TfZUw

I would like to know what Riot thinks about Garen's state, in particular, after seeing the Garen pick in the LPL from the video I posted at the beggining (just in case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-sHdPjuMA)

30 Comments

Swollwonder3/29/2015, 12:18:34 AM1 votes

I dont see any reason for garen to be reworked...the only thing is his ult and thats getting buffed. He just seems strong to me dealing decent damage with only one damage item. This looks like a "buff my main just because no dash" posts to me honestly

Saianna3/29/2015, 12:36:52 AM1 votes

No matter how much we'd want Garens rework, it won't happen.

Because it takes money. Riot loves money.

GloriousKaiser3/29/2015, 1:13:34 AM1 votes

I love how badly the shoutcasters wanted Garen to seem awesome, but man, it's just not showing for me there. To be fair, he was ignored because he built no damage. But there's the problem. His strengths are horribly overrated and his weaknesses shine through. Look at MaoKai, look at Garen. You see who was much more useful? Who provided more for the team? Who provided more for themselves? And who got the better payoff in the end for those?

**A lot of people like to base Garen's strength purely off who he can fight in lane Riven Darius etc **

I'm not going to make any statements on whether or not Garen needs reworks or not, because I simply don't know. But I do know that he is not up to par, and fails to perform in line with the rest of the roster. He fell out of favor a LONG time ago. It's sad to see he can't measure up because there's always a better specialist and his general skills are of no use.

I'm just gonna throw out some general thoughts on what you said.

Garen is too strong in some cases (when you are a little bit fed, and their team composition has not enough cc or tankiness to face your damage/burst--Survivavility relation) with a ""Lack of counterplay"" (if you have hexdrinker and blackcleaver at lvl 11 and you Q a Zed/Mage/Adc he'll die in 2 seconds without any help while you are able to tank too much damage from their team). It sounds great, but, in the actual meta, when you face a team who is as skilled as yours (this is what ELO system is supposed to do) they will take a meta combination, what is it?, champions with mobility.

True he's borderline oppressive to casters but even those casters CAN counter Garen with general play. If Garen goes up against a mage, that mage always has counterplay available. Assassins too. In fact, anyone with a lick of CC can keep Garen off them if they play smart. He depends too much on enemy mistakes rather his own play planning. Garen

Yeah, he has a good slow-cleanse on his Q, what is at the same time his only cc, but it's not a gap closer, it's just a slow-cleanse and a 35% MS boost, that means, that you are not gonna catch anyone in the enemy team if they have more than one slow or a dash (kallista+janna, nami+corki, caitlyn+leona, lucian+annie, etc, etc), there are a lot of adcs (they are usually the squshies ones) that can dash when you are casting your Q (for instance, Lucian/Graves/Ezreal can use E while you are jumping with Q) which means that they dash/jump at a "safe" distance when your Q has finished and you activate your E, which ends in a 0 dmg on your part because the "squishy" is far enough to avoid several E's hits.

Agreed. It's the general concensus that the champions you mention, are supposed to keep melees off. But with Garen, he can't counter/outplay those champions. He can't do anything after he forces them to blow a skill. He has no contingency to deal with not getting his wanted results. If he fails, to catch up, he has to run away. At the least, other champions can play around getting CC sent their way.

"What do you want?, a real Gap-Closer while maitining your burst/tankiness?" A mixture of both. Garen is not gonna reach the backline of the enemy team in the actual meta, it doesn't depend on your skill with Garen, it depends on if the enemy team fails or doesn't, which ends in an absurd situation "if you catch someone with Q+E+R at melee range that squishy will die, but if my team knows how Garen works and maintain the distance and the disengage spells he will be useless because he will only be able to attack my bruisers/tanks that are gonna engage on his carriers, so his damage will be extremely poor without cc for peeling" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-sHdPjuMA)

Agreed here. I can confirm this.

"Well, your job is to tank damage and execute someone with your ulti at melee range" Garen is not a tank, he has no cc for peeling his team, a tank can build tanky because it has usually damage based on your max health + damage based on enemy target max health, and at the same time, you have enough cc to engage/disengage in tfs and protect your carriers while they kill the enemy team.

THIS SO MUCH THIS!!!

If someone tries full tank or 5 tank items on Garen, he will discover that the enemy team will ignore him, because:

1: He won't deal enough damage to their backline. 2: He can't initiate a TeamFight (no real gapcloser+hard cc) 3: He can't peel for their carriers because a single-target-melee-range-silence =/= avoid enough damage from enemy team so your carry can survive.

"But I can killsteal finish people with my ult. It does tons of damage!! item 3155

"Of course, you have to build 2 or 3 damage items with Garen, he can't work as a real tank like Sion/Maokai/Sejuani/Mundo/Nautilus/etc".

My problem is that he has to build too many stats to be useful. Riven needs only AD to perform well, and she can even disregard boots because of her in combat mobility. Then we look at Garen.

Health, Armor, Magic Resist, AD, Crit, Movement speed. "But all bruisers/fighters build those!!" Yeah well all bruisers/fighters have real gapclosers and cc in their kits. Oh and Burst. Garen doesn't Burst down anyone. He spins on them for 3 seconds hoping they're cc'd or dumb enough to stand in the circle of death. THEN he bursts with the Big Sword.

The AD is put to use too weakly in his kit. The Q is the only reliable way to deal damage but even then he's gotta be close. The E IMO is too slow in damaging because it takes 3 seconds to get the full effect. Also, damn the crit, I got enough problems having to build a bunch of other stats to stay relevant.

Then, we are in the other point, if you have enough damage to kill a squishy, the enemy team will keep the distance with Garen, as he lacks a real gap closer that allow him to reach their backline. The same problems goes for Darius.

This, but Darius pull is at least a good way to force skills because he forces them to blow escapes or stay Melee.

"Ok, but you said a mixture of both, do you want mobility and a lot of damage?" No. I would like to see him as a fighter that, while unable to reach their carriers, he can stop the enemy frontline (tanks and other bruisers) dealing reasonable damage to them.

I like this, but I want him to be able to kill squishies quicker. Because he deserves to be rewarded with being scary to squishes if he can fight through a frontline.

"But, if he can deal a reasonable amount of damage to tanks and bruisers, what would happen if he reach an enemy carry?"

The enemy adc or squishy mage won't die instantly in a Q+E+R combo. The rework I would like to see is Q and E damage based on %max health:

But then they'd run away. And kite. And go back to their old shenanigans. He still gets kited by the kiters and he's still sad. Difference is, you gave him %damage. I know he shouldn't just up and murder squishies and ignore CC but he should be able to wade through a storm if he's strong.

Snipped your proposed changes.

The change on W is straightforward, increase Garen's pressence on teamfights in the late game, and improving a little bit his sustain in lane phase (what top doesn't have better sustain?, "Garen's passive already give him sustain", yeah, at the cost of taking no farming for +10 seconds to avoid taking damage, I don't call that "sustain in lane")

I like this change a lot. But what about this idea? Add, rework, anything: If Garen receives damage (can be speicified to what), he heals for Y% if his health for Z seconds.

The Q and E changes are for him to be able to build bruiser or off-tank and been able to deal reasonable amounts of damage to anyone he can catch, note that the %max health based damage ensures that if Garen catches (for some reason) a squishy target, he won't explode in 2,5 seconds while a 4-tank-items-guy is on him.

Cool, but is there any other way we can make him mechanically better? I still think squishies should die if caught by Garen, he has very little sticking power and he should be rewarded if he manages to even touch a mobile champion. But at the same time, can we make it so he can create more of these opportunities?

Also, he will keep their "damage dealer" version for those who likes Garen's full damage build (at the moment, Garen's Q and E scales really well with AD, at the cost of having no real gap closer and low survivavility, it's what i call, YOLO build), the AD will just increase the %max health Q and E can deal.

"But it has no sense you deal damage based on max health targets, clearly, Zed should recieve more damage from your sword than Seajuni, for instance"

Well, I think** that kind of desing fits extremelly well the theme of "Justice", you know, justice is equal for everyone,** and Garen should be an expert at delivering Justice to whoever deserves it, no matter the role or the size.

Generally agreed, but adding %damage won't solve the latent problems of kiting. That's a problem that should be fixed. Not removed, fixed.

But I really think that in the end. #LC$BIGPLAY$ are what matter. Because look at all the new champions. Riot tries to add a new mechanic every time they make a new champion. Garen has pretty much nothing unique anymore. He has no real specialty. He needs more niche power, but just in general, more power.

Critmaster Garen3/29/2015, 2:11:17 AM1 votes

imo he doesnt need a larger rework.

just some number changes, and little tweaks that help him in the lategame.

  • have the cooldown of his q start, when he activates the ability. theyd probably increase the cooldown to compensate though. but it could go down with ability rank, so you end up with being able to spam the ability by lategame - 7 seconds cooldown at rank 5, which means at 40% cdr you could constantly spam the ability, similar to how udyr can spam his bear stance. combined with the slow cleanse, this gives him a lot more chasing power and mobility, even without a hard gap closer.

  • slightly increased crit scaling on the spin, and 1 or 2 seconds cooldown shaved off of the ability by rank 5.

  • the removal of the self slow on the rank 5 spin, since it seriously hinders his ability to stick in jungle chases or in teamfights down the lanes. it was intended as an early game mechanic, but screws him over much too often even later on.

if they do these things one at a time and see how it works out, this would already add up to a pretty good lategame buff to his utility, and duelling potential, while not touching his early game.

the only other possible buff i could see beyond all this, was an increased armor/mr bonus from his w. maybe a few extra %. since this is another mechanic that allows him to scale better into lategame. (maybe 1% per w level added, starting at 21% and adding up to 25% at rank 5).

Ser Garland3/29/2015, 2:16:11 AM1 votes

Why do garen players pick Merc treads over boots of swiftness. He NEEDS boots of swiftness, that's just the kind of champ he is. This chinese pro also seems to pop his ult too soon. Also the teleport meta is probably an indirect nerf to Garen as I find he does better with Ignite.

Sooko3/29/2015, 12:56:53 PM1 votes

I like most of the ideas, except the taunt one on his W. Garen is made extremelly tanky thanks to it, and having a point-blank AoE taunt that isn't an ultimate nor channelled would probably make him win teamfights as well as being a great bully, not to mention enhancing an already strong skill (although perserverance on his W does sound cool).

I think what Garen needs is enough CC to protect his carries, rather than an initiation. He has tankiness, with your suggestions he will have his damage/tankiness issues fixed (which is good), but he will still have the problem of being kited for too long to actually do anything relevant, or not doing enough to save the squishies in his team.

Why not adding a condition to his ult: If Garen's Demacian Justice kills an enemy, it slightly knocks back nearby enemy champions?

Or something else for his Q: Garen also gives his enemy a debuff that increases allied crowd control on him by 10% (doesn't work for CC that isn't affected by Tenacity such as Knock-ups and suppressions)

This way, Garen will be able to let his allies kite his enemies by giving them negative tenacity, and be a little more disruptive even if just a little bit, not to mention helping lock down those pesky Katarinas/Yasuos/Zeds that keep dashing and blinking everywhere.

Silents4293/29/2015, 4:06:07 PM1 votes

I like him as is. I want his ult buffed to be a bit more up to par with all the other executes champions have. But like every champion he has his place in games, and shouldn't be setup to have a place in every game. He does good against teams he can punish, but bad against teams that can keep him away from the carry, which is perfectly fine.

The Yetii Rider3/29/2015, 6:10:02 PM1 votes

Fighters do not need to exist. The fighter problem is rampant and Riot has stated that they intend to rework the entire role, define it, and fix it, and that means redistributing.

Garen is the quintessential fighter, a tanky dps champion. His lore, his image, everything suggests that he should pack a punch but that he should also be able to take one. He's not light on his feet like Yi or Tryndamere and he's not all bulk and no muscle like Malphite or Maokai.

Here's the problem. That's not healthy for game balance.

Garen can either be a melee carry or he can be a tank. He can't be both, and encouraging Riot to continue the fighter problem will just cause them to put it on the back burner longer.

So, here is my suggestion: Make Garen a tank and accept that he will not be able to deal large amounts of damage.

Passive - Perseverance - No longer removed by monsters. Now refreshes after 7 seconds at level 1.

Q - Decisive Strike - Garen leaps towards an enemy in a targeted area of effect, but the enemy can still dash out of it, like Jayce's To the Skies!!. He deals a small amount of physical damage and silences enemies struck in the area of effect for 1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2.0 seconds.

Less damage, no slow cleanse, no mobility, but a gap closer with some counter play and an AOE silence. (The AOE would be very small, like To The Skies!!, about as large as the AOE on Corki's Phosphorous Bomb)

W - Honor Above All - Garen slams his sword into the ground and puts up his dukes. He taunts the closest enemy to him for 1.5 seconds, but during that duration, Garen is taunted as well and only attacks with his punch animation. While taunted, the adjacent enemy loses 10/15/20/25/30 MR.

The return of the Garen punch! A strong cc that when timed appropriately can open up for your burst mage to take someone out hard, as opposed to Rammus's Puncturing Taunt that encourages the ADC to do their thing.

E - Judgment - Spin to Win! The same, for nostalgia's sake, but whenever his E would critically strike, it applies a 20% slow that stacks with itself up to 3 times.