How to make Athene's compete with Morellonomicon

frenchdavid50·2/22/2015, 4:34:16 PM·63 votes·4,588 views

GIVE IT THE WARMOG'S PASSIVE! No, really! Maybe have the Mana Font increase to 2% or 3% after not taking damage for, say, 6 seconds. This would make it a genuine man sustain item that can compete with Morellonomicon. Plus, it would feel worth the price as opposed to barely worth it after getting the ingredients.Broken? Good? Not Good? Discuss.

TL;DR: Warmog's for Mana

72 Comments

JustMyBassCannon2/22/2015, 6:30:51 PM30 votes

Actually, all Athene's needs to compete with Morellonomicon is to have the base regen bonus increased to +100%

Then, they'd both give the same MP5 bonus, and Athene's trades a bit of AP and the Grievous Wounds for MR and the increased regen based on missing Mana.

Maybe increase the regen passive a bit as well, but that's all you need to have them competitively comparable.

Cindikle2/22/2015, 8:32:18 PM8 votes

You're undervaluing Athene's far too much.

  • If you can hold an average of 60% mana Athene's will be equal. If under it will be stronger.
  • The mana on kill/assist makes it stronger in the late game when you see enough teamfights
  • Building Chalice gives you the same regen as Athene's. All Athene's gains is the kill/assist passive and stats. If you're just looking for the regen and not the CDR you can build Chalice and build something else after that without giving up any regen.

In short, regen is not why Athene's is the weaker item.

  • It costs 400g for less value in stats. This is not comparing the GW passive vs the mana return. With the lack of options for GW, I think we know which passive is worth more.
  • It's build path is a less forgiving. While Chalice is stronger than Forbidden Idol. It also costs 400g more to build. This is 35g short of an Amp Tomb.
  • The MR is not that strong. As well as adding to the above. With more damage you could just kill the enemy instead. Or have more AP for you to use your abilities to last hit/clear safer. You could almost get a Morello and a Mantle for the cost of Athene's. Which you could build into a Specter's Cowl. Which has HP. Hp is more effective vs burst. In short, it's not a strong defensive item.

And now, why your suggest is very bad.

  • Old Mana Font was not actually OP. The mana regen it gave was fine. The problem was that the mana regen it gave was extremely passive. Ziggs didn't have to do anything between waves. He just cleared and waited. Maybe poked a little.
  • Your suggestion is to make it stronger as a passive form of regen. Returning it back to it's old state. Creating the same problem S4 had. This will lead it to getting other nerfs.

What Athene's needs to compete with Morellonomicon

  • Reduced cost. I don't know who did the math for this item when they nerfed it, but they gutted it. There was no light tap or even balancing being done. It was just gutted. The buff to 2% helped a bit. But when it was 1.5% it shows the lack of sense in some of the changes Riot does. IMO the best thing they can do at this is reduce Chalice's cost to 800 or 850, thus lowering Athene's to 2500 or 2550.
  • Improved MR. It's not defensive enough to by it for defensive reasons. Increase the MR to 40 like it once was. This would but it's value to match the 850 Chalice suggestion above. I would still say the 800 is better because the regen is not reliable. Even with this and the cost reduction, Athene is still the riskier buy.
  • Rework your vision of Grievous Wounds. It is not in a good spot. Options are limited. And when it works it can kill off a good chunk of the champion pool. Just playing Mundo right now puts him at risk because Morello's is so common. Yet if the enemy doesn't pick a champion that builds it their options become greatly limited.
thinking man2/22/2015, 7:42:47 PM7 votes

How about mana sustain after not casting spells for several seconds.

Most mages aren't in a position to take much damage so you should make them get mana sustain if they save spells but no mana if they don't.

GaleWinUnleashed2/22/2015, 5:48:55 PM6 votes

Done right, I think this idea could work to make Athene's the premier mana sustain item, without simply allowing you to spam continuously. The timer would have to go off whenever you're in combat or expending mana.

MasterofSFL2/22/2015, 5:53:31 PM6 votes

Thats stupid. Like, really stupid. What you're really looking for is of you don't use spells in X amount of time, but this broken as all hell.

Mana is a gating mechanic, you're basically trying to remove it without removing it. If you want something that that makes Athenes "worthwhile" then you'd want something along the lines of a harassment mechanic like:

Mana Font: Whenever you damage a Champion with a Spell, your Mana Regen increases between 50% to 400% depending on percentage of missing mana

Effectively turning Athenes into the Harassment item, allowing mages to negate Mana issues if they are consistent in their harassment of their lane instead of a sit back and Regen. It may have to suffer by giving no Regen otherwise (forcing you to constantly use your spells to harass), but we can't just make Athenes overtake Morellos just because.

Hell, I'd even be happy making Athenes an absorption item with stacks or something attached to it:

Mana Drink:

Passive: Every few seconds Athenes gains a Concentration stack. Whenever you Basic Attack or Damage a Champion with a spell gain X stacks

Active: Consume stacks, Gain X Percent of mana

Wînter Fox2/22/2015, 6:21:44 PM6 votes

While I do agree that Athene's is worthless, I think Riot should be careful with buffing it. There's nothing more annoying than Xerath CassiopeiaZiggs being able to spam spells constantly in lane with no mana worries. At the same time, investing in a heavy mana item like item 3174 should mean getting your money's worth.

There's a sweet spot here that needs to be reached.

qetzel2/22/2015, 5:45:19 PM4 votes

You would probably have to increase the time taken and also have the condition that you can't cast spells or use mana either. I don't think Riot wants anyone to never have to worry about mana...

youngjake932/22/2015, 6:00:02 PM3 votes

Athene's already does compete with Morellonomicon... Athene's still has the MR and still scales slightly better and still has good mana regen for spammy champs that stay low mana often. It also still has god levels of regen when paired with Tear or ROA. Your ideas not bad though and Morello is still better than Athene's in most cases, so it would be could for a verrry small buff to it.

Abyssphere2/22/2015, 8:51:36 PM2 votes

I would honestly just increase the mana regen to 75%. Grail isn't hideously underpowered, just a bit.

LordOfTheLeague2/22/2015, 9:53:31 PM2 votes

I think riot doesn't want athenes to compete with morellonomicom..

I think morello is an item that you want to rush and not specially for the mana regen but for all the stats it grants.

Athenes is not a rush item anymore, it's an item you want to couple with an other mana + mana regen item to have a huge mana regen late game (I think tear/ROA + athenes as a 3th or 4th item).

They want those items to have 2 differents purpose. Morello is an early game really efficient item when athenes is a late game spam item.

My 2 cents.

ModKnightsKemplar2/23/2015, 8:35:46 PM2 votes

Much applause, good sir. This is, indeed, a brilliant idea, even if it isn't implemented. I would rather it increase when you aren't casting spells instead, though, so it's truly analogous to Warmog's.

You see, Warmog's is like that so that you can be killed. It becomes a sustain item because the regen is not working when the resource is being consumed.

Athene's could have this passive when you aren't casting spells. That way, even if your opponent can't harass you consistently, you STILL can't spam spells with it. I believe this would be slightly better.

McAllister2/22/2015, 6:02:28 PM2 votes

Really, what they need to do is change the stats on one of them. They can't both be the AP+ManaRegen+CDR item, that's too specific. Hell, we don't even have one Mana+MR* item, or one AD+Armor item. Let me tell you, champions that scale with mana have had happier days, like when BVeil had mana.

Silents4292/23/2015, 11:00:07 PM1 votes

Not trying to troll but why do people hate the 2% of missing mana so much? I mean I prefer item 3165 for the grievous wounds, but using both I pretty forgot I even had mana all the time.

Is their something I am missing?

MarkedOfKane2/23/2015, 3:21:40 AM1 votes

IMO, just give it more MR.

A0 SHIN2/23/2015, 6:48:53 AM1 votes

I think it would be more fitting if the terms of increased mana regen were "After not using mana for x seconds, mana regen is increased by x%" instead of tying it with HP. Good idea though. Riot definitely needs to do something with mana regen.

Dingding1232/23/2015, 4:23:54 PM1 votes

How about 6 seconds after casting a spell?

SpecterVonBaren2/23/2015, 8:31:33 PM1 votes

Giving it more MR again is probably the best choice, that would differentiate it from Morello's in that Morello's for being aggresive, Ahtenes for being defensive.