How to *properly* remake a champion

Bay B··2 votes·1,192 views

Alright Riot, I'm not sure if you have a pen /paper handy but you're definitely gonna wanna write some of this down. For todays example we'll be looking at Aatrox , the champ that never needed changing.

To begin, lets remember what a 'remake' is. A remake is when you take an existing champion, and due to some mechanic in their kit, they need to be remade to either tone them down or power them up. In the case of Aatrox i'm not too sure if he was too weak or too strong, I mained him myself and from my perspective he was quite balanced. Needing a good level of skill/knowledge to know when to engage, how to pop bloodwell, kiting, bursting. Was strong when played correctly, weak when not.

So lets just assume Aatrox was a huge problem in League and really needed a rework (which he didn't). When redesigning a champ, retaining their core gameplay elements is crucial, otherwise you aren't remaking the champ, you're instead creating an entirely new champion that just looks similar. Looks aren't important, gameplay is.

How did Aatrox play before? His Q was a gap closer/escape (which could be cancelled if used too predictably/early), a W which gave more damage or heals, an E which allowed ranged poke in lane, and an ult which synergized with his W.

How does Aatrox play now? He has a Q which can be used 3 times, deals great damage but no mobility, a W which shoots a skillshot that creates some area that pulls them back in or something dumb like that, an E which is literally Riven E but provides no shield, and his ult which really takes the skill out of using Aatrox passive. Admittedly combining Q with E to extend range is cool, but again it's a simple mechanic and doesn't fit the theme of what Aatrox was.

When we compare Aatrox before and after the rework it's obvious they changed the way the champion is played. Going from a fast, attack speed driven hyper-carry, to a clunky slow champ with a huge sword that uses no autos and is primarily ability based.

All in all I get Riot isn't trying to ruin the game, and I'm not saying they are. But sometimes I really struggle to understand the root of their decision making. I'm fine with remaking champs, and items, but if you don't have a clear vision and why/how you are going to implement those changes and how those changes will effect the playerbase, then just wait till the golden idea comes. Aatrox was low playrate and if anything was gaining popularity because people finally noticed how great he was, then Riot just changes him as if he was super broken. Tweak his numbers, take down some of his burst, reduce HP gained from passive, anything would've been better then gutting one of the few unique champs in the game.

27 Comments

DearPear6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bay B,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PyFihadZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-28T15:16:21.282+0000)

Alright Riot, I'm not sure if you have a pen /paper handy but you're definitely gonna wanna write some of this down. For todays example we'll be looking at Aatrox , the champ that never needed changing.

Despite years of insanely low playrate and having the most binary stats-checking kit?

You lost me there. You are not a game designer by any means.

Bay B1 votes

{quoted}

Despite years of insanely low playrate and having the most binary stats-checking kit?

You lost me there. You are not a game designer by any means.

'Aatrox was low playrate and if anything was gaining popularity because people finally noticed how great he was, then Riot just changes him as if he was super broken.'

I acknowledged that

DearPear2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bay B,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PyFihadZ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-06-28T15:20:22.645+0000)

'Aatrox was low playrate and if anything was gaining popularity because people finally noticed how great he was, then Riot just changes him as if he was super broken.'

lul

People noticed him because a rework was announced.

Bay B1 votes

{quoted}

lul

People noticed him because a rework was announced.

He was being banned in pro play

DearPear1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bay B,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PyFihadZ,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-28T15:57:31.250+0000)

He was being banned in pro play

have I said otherwise?

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Yeah, with 0 changes, he went from being shit-tier to god-tier. Riot (I don't remember which Rioter) commented on that; it means he probably needed a rework. Having that big a swing with 0 changes is not a good thing.

AirKingNeo1 votes

He wasn't shit tier. He was ok tier and then became pretty good because ADCs got removed.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

A fair disagreement, but I don't think it affects the conclusion. It doesn't make him healthier or easier to balance just because he suddenly got strong in the meta.

Bay B1 votes

{quoted}

A fair disagreement, but I don't think it affects the conclusion. It doesn't make him healthier or easier to balance just because he suddenly got strong in the meta.

Personally I felt his main issue was his ability to not only burst, but sustain in longer fights. I feel if Riot simply toned down his burst from ult/W, gave him a bit of scaling attack speed, he'd be worse in shorter fights but stronger in longer fights, resulting in what I would assume would be a fairly balanced champ. Appreciate how civil you are thank you.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

You, as well! I think it's more valuable in every way to be civil. No reason to act like barbarians :)

And I definitely see why people are mad about what he lost; you won't hear me debating that point. We lost a unique melee auto-attacker. I just don't think he was ever going to be balance-able, and I personally feel it's better to have something that is.

AirKingNeo1 votes

He wasn't hard to balance in the first place.

AirKingNeo1 votes

years of low playrate until he got a mini rework

His kit isn't a stat check. Stat check kits don't have skillshots and any conditions to meet, like Yi.

DearPear3 votes

{quoted}

years of low playrate until he got a mini rework

He was still very rarely played. Also, the current rework was already planned by the time they did the mini rework.

{quoted}

His kit isn't a stat check. Stat check kits don't have skillshots and any conditions to meet, like Yi.

This is just wrong.

AirKingNeo1 votes

This is just wrong.

Then prove me wrong.

DearPear2 votes

{quoted}

Then prove me wrong.

More like, prove yourself right.

AirKingNeo1 votes

That's not how the burden of proof works. I don't have to prove myself correct because default is to not be anything, therefore Aatrox is, by default, not a stat check. (Think innocent before guilty. Aatrox is innocent of being a stat check until proven.)

But sure, let's prove me right for the fun of it. Aatrox's Q and E are windows of power. Aatrox can't continue a fight without E and loses fights if he loses his Q, just like Jax uses his Q to continue fights and he loses fights if he messes up his E. Jax's passive and ultimate is a window of power, just like Aatrox's passive and ultimate. If you think these are things from Jax are statchecky, then you're wrong in the eyes of the Riot's Lead Designer, Ghostcrawler who claims this:

https://i.gyazo.com/f04ec2bafad9cc901fa5ab584de87d0f.png

Now since the burden of proof was on you in the first place, what's your argument?

InTheory1 votes

lol where are you coming from xD

AirKingNeo1 votes

What do you mean? He didn't understand the concept of the burden of proof and I gave him an argument baed on Ghostcrawler's logic.

InTheory1 votes

Coming from science the burdon of proof is always on the person making an argument in the first place. It's basically a part of the argument itself. Your approach is the Trump aka Fake news approach. Tell whatever you want as loud as you want and it's true as long as nobody proves you wrong. And even if you are proven wrong, they are still biased and manipulated liers. I see you pretty often on boards using the same logic. Your arguments are always "the truth" and everyone else's opinion is bs. If you don't want to keep going with that you often finish just with stuff like "I don't care". Argumentation isn't really your strength bbut you'e running around spamming the boards with your opinions stating them as facts. If you'd meet yourself in a mirror you'd be always able to counterargue yourself just from the "argumkentation"style that you use.

DearPear1 votes

{quoted}

That's not how the burden of proof works. I don't have to prove myself correct because default is to not be anything, therefore Aatrox is, by default, not a stat check. (Think innocent before guilty. Aatrox is innocent of being a stat check until proven.)

Let me quote you : "Stat check kits don't have skillshots and any conditions to meet, like Yi."

This is something you are asserting, this is nothing "default". So well, you know how burden of proof works, so go ahead and prove that assertion.


also : https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/8una0m/were_the_team_that_updated_aatrox_ask_us_anything/e1gpizm/

Ralanr5 votes

Something to consider when champions are getting reworked, “Sometimes what you like about the champion is the problem.”

Linna Excel2 votes

Do what CertainlyT did with Warwick:

  1. Keep the champ looking like it did before, just newer.
  2. Make sure the champ has a very similar playstyle to before.
  3. Fix what problems you can as long as you keep the champ and its gameplay recognizable.
Bay B1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PyFihadZ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-06-28T15:37:03.689+0000)

Do what CertainlyT did with Warwick:

  1. Keep the champ looking like it did before, just newer.
  2. Make sure the champ has a very similar playstyle to before.
  3. Fix what problems you can as long as you keep the champ and its gameplay recognizable.

Exactly

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

they changed him because he's meant to be a powerful warlord that uses brute strength in the story now. think darius, garen, sejuani, etc. so they changed his gameplay to fit that theme. his previous kit had a skillshot that provided a slow, a dash that knocked up, a toggled basic attack modifier that added healing or damage, and an ultimate that was essentially a passive. aatrox is meant to be a big hulking brute like galio. someone who just shrugs off attacks from tiny humans. his kit provided none of that feeling.

basically his archetype didnt fit his character model or his gameplay. that's where a majority of his changes came from. the gameplay was boring to the general community because you felt like an assassin or a duelist and not a creator of war. now you get the feeling youve instigated war as soon as you land an ability.

use your R? people might not follow you into battle the first time, but once they see how much you blow up their team they'll reconsider it the next time. and that's honestly what aatrox has meant to be since his birth is that he's supposed to instigate war. in gameplay that means making teamfights happen. in lore that means leading an army (whether from behind the shadows are on the frontlines). archetypes that means he's a knight or paladin. both usually have high armor damage and are front line units.

before he couldnt do that. no matter what ability you landed if the opponent flashed you to get away then that was the entire fight. there was no forced confrontation. especially if you missed your slow or your knockup. now you get 3 chances to knock up an opponent and a displacement instead of a slow. plus now you can outheal other champions because riot gave him a better version of grievous wounds on his basic attack that can be used more often the more abilities he lands correctly.


i agree that they changed the champ completely, but i think it's not necessarily a bad thing and i dont think the fault should be placed on the current rework team. they were given a task to accomplish : make aatrox make sense in this world. they did that.

if we're to complain about anyone or anything it shouldnt be the rework, but the original character designer and gameplay designer because they did not make aatrox fit into the world in a way that would withstand change. he was not thematic enough to stand the test of time. because of that a champion was released without being fully fleshed out and was not given a true identity. players were allowed to fall in love with that character as incomplete as he was and therefore the entire responsibility of the fans having to experience the grief of losing a character they love should fall on those incomplete original designs and not on the rework.


edit*

and one thing you have to remember is that video games are constantly evolving. technology is constantly evolving. there are undoubtedly some restraints that have been placed on this game that are starting to get lifted as time goes on. skins like gun goddess miss fortune and elementalist lux would have and could have never been a thing 6 seasons ago. so personally i think it's good for a game to slowly correct upon ideas. mortal kombat would be really dumb today if they still had the MK 1 gameplay where every character had 1-2 specials and the same basic punches and kicks. GTA San Andreas was good, but anyone who says GTA V wasn't better is just trapped in their nostalgia. mario would be really lame if for 30 years we were just running from left side of the screen to the right side. mario 64 would have never existed.

and sure you might say mario hasnt changed and to that i say... remember when mario was called jump man and he was a carpenter and not a plumber? or when mario bros was a thing prior to super mario bros? so sometimes things have to just have an identify first. donkey would have died long ago if it werent for rare's donkey kong country changing the way the game was viewed.

Even1 votes

They just should have kept him as an autoattacker, i don't understand changing him to a caster. Riot just doesn't care about champions with low play rates.

SwiftKitten881 votes

Nidalee has IMO the best rework ever.

they took a champs who had a ability to go in melee range as a kitty.. but would almost never use it as the risk/benefet of doing was was bad. and all she did was throw max range spear from comeptly safely and only use kitty from for escape mobility.

they took that.. drascially lowered the damage on her spear and put that power on hr takedown.. forcing her to go in after she lands a spear as a squishy AP champ.

this gave her so much more counterplay,

but they also made her MUCH more FUN, allowing her to get an empowered pounce so she could jump in gave her kitty at lvl 1 instead of lvl 6.

and overall gave her the counterplay she needed, and let her be perfectly balanced in 4 different lanes while being OP in none from patchs 4.17 to 5.1

(she was initially over-tuned in 4.10 to 4.16)

granted riot fucked everything up by throwing her into the jungle in 5.1 but thats another story.. and not about her rework.

this is how reworks should be. they should fix the issues (such as lack of counterplay) in a champion kit, make them MORE fun to play. keep what makes the current players who love the champion and their abilities happy and improve upon them not flat out throw them away and start anew.

and this is exactly what riot did with nidalee rework.

granted they then made Zoe which is a compilation of all the things that were wrong with nidalee in the first place, and decided to put them in one champion and made them even worse than they were on Nidalee.. and i don't have an explanation for that...

but they did a good job on nidalee...

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bay B,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PyFihadZ,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-28T15:16:21.282+0000)

Alright Riot, I'm not sure if you have a pen /paper handy but you're definitely gonna wanna write some of this down. For todays example we'll be looking at Aatrox , the champ that never needed changing.

"Never needed changing" lmao

To begin, lets remember what a 'remake' is. A remake is when you take an existing champion, and due to some mechanic in their kit, they need to be remade to either tone them down or power them up. In the case of Aatrox i'm not too sure if he was too weak or too strong, I mained him myself and from my perspective he was quite balanced.

False. A rework is because an aspect (or aspects) of the champion's kit render them impossible to balance (Most draintanks are like this, as either the healing is too overwhelming to be handled by GW, or is too weak because of GW); because aspect(s) of that champion's kit are just toxic and unhealthy for the game as a whole, even if they are balanced (Many high-damage point and clicks are like this. Also, draintanks again); or because parts of the kit are horrendously mismatched with everything else (either with the rest of the champion's kit, or with League as a whole. This is part of the reason why Mordekaiser, Kayle, and Morgana are getting updates. Many high damage point and clicks fit in this as well).

Even balanced champions can need a rework. Akali is almost dead balanced right now. She's still getting a rework because bad design.

...he was quite balanced. Needing a good level of skill/knowledge to know when to engage, how to pop bloodwell, kiting, bursting. Was strong when played correctly, weak when not.

Yes. So much skill, so much knowledge. It was so hard to right-click to heal.

Oh. Wait. That's just general knowledge everyone gets. When to engage? Kiting? Bursting? None of those are champ-specific.

Let's be honest, the only "difficulty" Aatrox players had was landing the Q knockup. The only real "decision" they had was which W to use.

Also, "needing good knowledge" and "balanced" do not equate.

Also also, he was blatantly OP before the rework.

So lets just assume Aatrox was a huge problem in League and really needed a rework (which he didn't). When redesigning a champ, retaining their core gameplay elements is crucial, otherwise you aren't remaking the champ, you're instead creating an entirely new champion that just looks similar. Looks aren't important, gameplay is.

Mkay there Sion/Galio/Poppy.

When an entire design is just bad, the champion needs to be nearly completely redone.

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