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[LONG] My thoughts on Karma and the proposed changes made by Riot 2 months ago

Makattack·12/12/2018, 12:46:25 PM·34 votes·12,371 views

#Division among Karma mains

One consistency that I have observed in updates/reworks is Riot's attempts, no matter how small or large, to bridge the player-bases of a champion. With these changes, I see quite the opposite. This is going to sound rather blunt, but I'm speaking from desperation. Majority of the players that like the upcoming rendition of Karma are support mains that only started playing her when she became popular in pro play. Obviously, I don't have numbers to back that up, but it would make sense that if anyone likes these changes, it would be them and I'm sure Riot knows that. I'm not saying their opinions are not valuable, but if Riot butchers Karma to a new low (again), part of that same population that they're catering to will likely hop on to the next FOTM pick.

It's just so frustrating to see Riot ignore solo lane Karma because addressing it would be more of a pain. What Riot doesn't want to hear is that preexisting variants can coexist with their precious support Karma if they'd take the time to understand their issues and address them. In the past two weeks alone, I have seen so many propositions from solo lane Karma players that have considerations for Karma support. Everyone can go home happy, so it puzzles me to see the most dedicated mains tossed to the side.

#Solo Lane Karma

I don't play tank Karma, so I don't feel qualified to give insight on it, but I'm sure many already have. However, as a mage Karma enthusiast, Riot hasn't done much to make this playstyle operate correctly. Oh, and before someone brings up play-rates and how Riot isn't obligated to balance around an "off-role", I'd like to point out that mage Karma has coexisted with support in the past. It's possible for both of them to be balanced, so Riot opting to ignore it is just laziness in my eyes. I even would go as far as to assert that if Karma were rebalanced for a battle mage, she would be a better solo laner and support. Solo Lane Karma has a few main issues:

  1. Even as an early-game focused champion unless Karma's fed, she cannot solo kill most mid laners. This derives from a lot of things, like not having an actual ultimate (don't get me wrong, Mantra is a core trait that must remain), having a minion-colliding poke spell, overall low DPS from having only two damaging spells, etc.

  2. Mage Karma lacks efficient wave clear to the point where she has to use her most important spell (a spell that she can't kill or effectively duel without) which has about a 40-second cooldown, to assist clearing waves. Karma must wait until the minions get into horizontal lines to hit more 3 or more, and even with items, she still struggles to clear the casters.

  3. Karma's second damaging spell being maxed last (for good reasons) hurts Karma's ability to trade in lane. Late in the game, W, being a short-ranged spell, leaves Karma with a single medium-ranged spell that cannot pass through minions as a poke spell.

Riot can at least fix most of those issues without it making support Karma too strong or too weak. I'm not sure if there's a point in letting other variants of Karma exist if they're not going to be helped by the changes. It's like watching a hit deer suffer in pain and having the tools to care for it, or put it out of its misery, but instead just watching it suffer.

Also, I'd like to discuss ISSUES vs WEAKNESSES. Most of these things that I've listed might seem like they're weaknesses (which is normal for a champion to have), but they become issues when Karma's the only mage mid laner that runs into these issues. Being weaker late game and versus tanks are just two of Karma's weaknesses. Not being able to hit anyone with a Q/RQ because minions are in the way or because a tank is just going to block it is a big issue.

#Soulflare Change

I feel like most people; myself included, overlooked this change because at face value the minor alteration is positive, and we have bigger fish to fry with the controversial W ally function. I found the exact quote from the post on the boards:

For Soulflare (Mantra-Q), we’re loading more of the damage into the initial hit of the projectile, and less into the detonation damage - using Soulflare to poke should remain powerful even later into the game.

At first, I was okay with this change; it looked like a convincing attempt by Riot to address mid Karma. However, I don't think anyone reasonably had any problems with the fact that the brunt of the RQ damage was from the eruption. It was good counterplay for a skill that has high base damages and ratios. Removing that does not actually fix the late game damage problem that mid Karma has. If anything, it seems like it would just set her up for a damage nerf in the future.

Karma's Q/RQ is her main damage ability but does a poor job of effectively dealing damage in the later parts of the game. This will not be fixed by adding more burst if that burst can't hit the target. Karma's damage numbers aren't the problem. What Karma's Q/RQ needs is accessibility and utility. One of Karma's biggest weaknesses is that she doesn't have meaningful crowd-control and I think Ricklessabandon (Rioter responsible for the 5.10 change) noticed this and attempted to fix it by giving her a 3.25-second root on RW. Similar to the rest of the Karma changes in the 5.10 patch, this change was rubbish. Her lack of meaningful, immediate control is one of the reasons why she relies on early game damage and big AOE shields to be a useful support. It's also the reason why she is the worst scaling enchanter.

#Unfinished Plan

I found a series of tweets made by Ricklessabandon (a former Rioter) earlier this year. Someone asks him about fixing Karma's bigger issues (RQ damage-potential late game being gated by minions/tanks, shield bomb, etc.) And the response was that they'd be looking at those issues in her upcoming update. The proposed changes announced 2 months ago do not solve any of these issues.

#Karma's W

Originality aside (even though it's not original in the slightest), this change is bogus. How will Riot balance this to make it not overbearing? Let's not forget that in certain matchups Soulflare already makes Karma a bully. This seems like a spell that either will be completley overlooked because of how much it has to be toned down or a spell that will make duo lane Karma hellish to lane versus. I would prefer to have Karma not be pick-or-ban in pro play (again).

Karma's original W (pre-rework) was changed because it required too much coordination for solo queue. This spell was clearly made with pro play in mind because those who will truly abuse this spell are going to have voice communication and pre-existing synergy.

My biggest concern with the RW ally function was the fact that even though it's clearly not a good idea, it NEARLY was shipped to PBE so that we can "see how it goes". It just seems like a waste of time to me. It didn't end up going through which means that we'll have to wait longer for an update, that still likely won't be solve Karma's issues.

#Karma's E

The following quote—found here—is from RiotNeuroCat on the topic of our beloved shield bomb.

The issue is that pre 5.10 Karma's R-E was a pretty large part of her power budget already, in not a great way to meet our goals around diverse Mantra choices. We'd likely need to nerf it past where it was significantly. I really enjoy her shield bomb as well as a spell, but at the end of the day, I can't sacrifice the thing that a lot of current Karma players really enjoy for my own preferences.

I can't get past the fact that the shield bomb doesn't get a to exist because Riot would have to nerf it but the ally function on W gets to exist even though Riot will 100% have to nerf it. I also have no idea what "thing that a lot of current Karma players really enjoy" that NeuroCat is talking about sacrificing. I'd bet that the majority of Karma players want the shield bomb so...why is it being sacrificed? Maybe I'm misreading or tired. Hopefully, someone will correct me.

#Model, Fans, & Skins

I know this is only a gameplay change, but some of these things need to be addressed. Remember Riot, you tried reworking Karma, and left her incomplete. Finish your work. She needs a shield animation and~~ a running animation~~ (good job on this one). It would be nice to get newer voice lines, but I understand that's over the top. She has models that look nothing like the current art or even any previous renditions. Give us the fans in the Traditional skin, which is supposed to be reminiscent of the older version, but currently doesn't.

#TL;DR

Riot's proposed changes for Karma leave a bad taste in my mouth and don't actually solve much. I'm sort of happy that they're shelved because if they had gone through, I'd likely have left the game or turned into a Neeko main. Solo lane Karma also needs to be addressed and bringing back the shield-bomb would partially fix solo lane issues. Earlier this year, Riot said that they had plans to SPECIFICALLY address these issues, but if they did, I wouldn't be making this post, would I? As a Karma main with over 2 million points spread out across several accounts, I'm just so disappointed at how Riot has handled Karma and how we'll have to wait forever for a change that likely won't fix anything.

23 Comments

IxtaliKing12/12/2018, 11:40:51 PM8 votes

No matter how you slice it, the proposed changes aren't good.

Riot decided that Karma offering a unique mechanic (with this tiny scope and resources) was more important than having a cohesive kit, and a united player base. The goal was ambitious, but the result is terrible.

The comment about the pre 5.10 shield bomb was utter bullshit, I'm sorry. Karma wasn't nerfed ONCE prior to 5.10, only buffed. When she had that shield bomb iteration, her kit had room in its power budget for continuous buffs for 2 years straight. If a shield with huge AoE damage and a stun is allowed to exist, I see no reason why we can't have a decent AoE shield with damage.

I hope they come around to doing what Meddler said they were going to do in the first place, which is a LB/Rengar type rework. That basically amounts to a partial revert to the root of ALL her gameplay issues - the 5.10 changes. Leblanc, Rengar and Karma all had failed mini reworks that caused more problems than they solved, so Karma should be handled the same way.

From there they can give her a more a fitting ally W/RW effect that isn't Zilean and Soraka leftovers, and doesn't pander to coordinated play.

Edit: Also, "Good Form" - Nicki Minaj fan?

Nevrankroaton12/12/2018, 2:34:29 PM7 votes

So we are clear:

Majority of the players that like the upcoming rendition of Karma are support mains that only started playing her when she became popular in pro play. Obviously, I don't have numbers to back that up, but it would make sense that if anyone likes these changes, it would be them and I'm sure Riot knows that. I'm not saying their opinions are not valuable, but if Riot butchers Karma to a new low (again), part of that same population that they're catering to will likely hop on to the next FOTM pick.

It is such fucking bullshit, you made that claim right up from your ass so you can put this fucking non based argument that is "Yeah so if you cater to THEM and not US old karma fans that want solo lane, you will have them stop playing her because they only played her when she was FOTM and if you fail your balance, they will ditch her!".

It is such a fallacious point, you try to make yourself sound polite but you just try to deny the credibility of an ENTIRE playerbase based on some assumption with no basis.

Especially when MANY players diatch a champion if it isn't strong/fun enough, only the core fan use them and I don't see why support karma core fan would be the ones to all diatch the champion while other don't.

And I back up my accusation with this part just after this paragraph:

It's just so frustrating to see Riot ignore solo lane Karma because addressing it would be more of a pain. What Riot doesn't want to hear is that preexisting variants can coexist with their precious **support **Karma if they'd take the time to understand their issues and address them.

The use of the word precious is not for nothing, it annoy you that they would try to switch their balance toward Karma being a support. Because we all know players LOVE to scream they want diversity and then we forget how some "diversity" allow for ultra cancer lane or very obnoxious playstyle (AP Kog, Tank Ekko, Bruiser Nidalee back in S3, Viktor top, lulu as a whole, AP Master yi).

And just so we are honest, of course I would be cool with Karma being a good midlaner, I love karma, would love to have her back here. But we all know why karma HAS to be mid, and it is because the very old karma players ask that ever since the first rework, because it was like that before she was reworked so because she was a mid before, riot HAS to let be a mage.

And to be honest... I feel it is a bad idea, I want Karma to be cohesive and cool, to be a FUN champion to play. I don't care if it is jungle, top, mid, adc or support, I want her to feel better. I rather let her be subpar as a midlaner but have her feel more cohesive with her thematic and have cooler duality. And same goes if she is less good as a supp and better as a midlaner, I honestly don't care as long as it make her feel better. Even though Karma was always made by riot in the idea of being a support who could possibly mid (but she was shit).

Also, unpopular opinion (and I don't say that to get simpathy point, it is unpopular) but shield bomb is a lazy inclusion on karma and would only be here to catter to people wanting the past to comeback. If shieldbomb should ever comeback, I want it to be different, I want shield bomb to have more counterplay (like how a vladimir has to charge his E), I want it to be subpar to push lane, I want the shield to still be a good shield, etc. I don't want an ivern bis, I don't even see how it feel coherent because if mantra Q is made to be the burst option, it mean that if you make shieldbomb, you don't use mantra Q in your combo so like... what is the point?

Idk, why people don't want mid karma to be a more supportive kind of mage is just weird. Or like to help her midlane by giving her other tool like sustain or debuff. I also feel Karma would be in a HUGE need to be monitored so she doesn't become viktor top bis...

So yeah, if Riot want to support ... well support Karma, it is their right, it isn't a bad move and as long as it make the champion feel cool and fun, it is what matter the most. I would love to see a real mid karma player who try to stop making her a generic mage mid with an other damage option (shieldbomb) and give better idea about what her W/E could do to feel more in the duality.

MissMikasa12/13/2018, 12:18:07 AM6 votes

Also, for all of your information:

Karma was a mid lane mage **FIRST. ** Then pushed into support by Riot.

So for all you claiming her solo lane is "off," it really IS NOT.

ModBianca Colt12/12/2018, 5:51:26 PM5 votes

The biggest problem I have with Karma is her "useless" passive ability. It shouldn't be a stand-alone ability; it should be part of her ultimate.

Passive - Gathering Fire Kindled Spirit - When Karma deals damage to an enemy champ or large monster, Mantra’s cooldown is reduced by X seconds (to a cap of Y times over Z seconds).

Souls Alight - Karma can see her allies’ total basic ability cooldowns.

This is what they're trying to do in regards to updating her passive ability. Sounds like a Zilean's W rip-off, but for allies (when combined with W). Personally, it's a horrible decision and mechanic and should be looked into a bit further. She needs a meaningful passive ability.

Frosted Tips12/12/2018, 6:10:29 PM3 votes

So I made a post on the karma mains subreddit about a quickly made idea I had for her that solved most of her issues imo and I think you may like to see it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/karmamains/comments/a12xap/my_ideas_for_karma_mini_rework/?utm_source=reddit-android

I agree with a lot of what you said and I really hope the current work they are doing is scrapped because I think that would be the last straw and I would finally stop trying to play her.

Death by Glamour12/12/2018, 2:35:22 PM3 votes

the fact that we haven't seen nor heard anything more about the proposed change gives me hope that they are dropping it in favour of another.

I agree with most of what you have said, but im one of the few that thinks that midlane mage karma should be dropped in favour of support and top lane karma

Shrike980012/12/2018, 5:41:54 PM2 votes

Although riot did give karma a run animation, it feels so poorly done! The animation looks like an ancient T-Rex running down at you and encourages me to not purchase boots or any possible move speed items.

ı Sona ı12/12/2018, 8:05:45 PM2 votes

I miss old karma skills. That % healing was amazing.

Larriet12/12/2018, 10:47:45 PM2 votes

Hi, I'm a Mid/Support player (Prefer support as a role overall, but prefer champs/mages I can play mid over most support champs themselves).

I really like your analysis. I thought the proposed changes were interesting, and I would've been generally fine with them (heck, sounded fun even), but I'm not a Karma main by any means and I'm glad things you (and some other Karma players) seemed to dislike didn't come about.

As an avid Lux/Morgana player, I genuinely hope they're able to get Karma in a decent spot for both roles, but I don't believe it's completely possible for them to be truly equal. One or the other is likely going to be better, and especially in higher ranks, this will likely manifest as her being played exclusively in that role. Morgana mid isn't terrible by any means, since her waveclear is great, but her lack of poke and solokill potential leaves her with less agency than other midlaners, and she's almost never played outside support, especially in higher ranks. Lux support will always be something people want to do, but it will probably never be as good as midlane simply because of how she scales (her role isn't just "do damage" like some people suggest, but she can't lock people down like Morgana … for example). Just to give a frame of reference of where I'm coming from.

The balance needs of a support mage are different than a midlane mage. Karma's Q makes sense for a support; she doesn't need waveclear in the same way, and her poke being less reliable is good for a role that doesn't use abilities to farm. I'm a little worried about any changes the future might bring, but I would like Mid Karma to come around in some way. In terms of how their gameplay reflect their characters, Lux and Karma have some similarities, actually. They're both characters that are meant to be strong in their own right while bringing out the strength of their teammates. Either leading from the midlane or supporting their team feels good, in my opinion, in terms of their gameplay fantasy.

This is all a very long way of saying I really, really hope Mid and Support Karma come out in a good spot, although I don't know how to change it without a significant update (and her gameplay, for what it is, isn't problematic).

Hupsis12/12/2018, 4:16:19 PM2 votes

Karma isn't a dedicated damage champion, she's an enchanter with burst potential. You can build her like a mage and do fine in certain situations. Her specialty is her ability to respond to various situations through her mantra. That flexibility consumes a portion of her power budget and is one of the key traits why people like Karma. There is no reason to homogenize her mantra spells.

Reason why shieldbomb doesn't exist is because it has so many effects spread on an aoe. It's either tuned to satisfying levels and is op or it's tuned to balanced levels and feels bad to use. If you want damage, you use mantra Q to either poke or make a risky play with W to secure it.

BioticFlux12/13/2018, 12:53:34 PM1 votes

Hi as a Karma main myself (she was the 1st champ I bought in the game with IP after playing the tutorial and loved/mained her ever since).

I agree with everything u said, however, I feel like it is possible to play around some of her weaknesses in mid lane (such as her q hitting minions). I really want her to be viable in mid and support (I mostly play mid and support and I think it fits her duality theme). Although I have tried it, I'm not a fan of tank Karma (I think when played top, it will only encourage Riot to nerf her again in the future).

I miss shield bomb so much (it was iconic to her kit and duality theme, and it encouraged some strategic forethought when wanting to use it), I really hope they can bring it back (haven't heard a good reason not to) and I even miss it when she was able to shield minions (which I think was fair because Janna can shield towers).

I don't like Riot's idea for her new W/RW, it won't be good if she's the go-to niche pick for mana-hungry adc's. I hope they come up with a better idea when used on allies (healing?), like the great ideas mentioned by Anìmê in his/her post:

Anìmê (NA)

So I made a post on the karma mains subreddit about a quickly made idea I had for her that solved most of her issues imo and I think you may like to see it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/karmamains/comments/a12xap/my_ideas_for_karma_mini_rework/?utm_source=reddit-android

Here's hoping they do a good job with her by reading our discussions and listening to the community.

Sassmast3r12/12/2018, 6:12:05 PM1 votes

I understand your disappointment with Karma being shifted towards the support role, and frankly I have no idea why they ever did this; support Karma requires much less skill (maxing CDR, then spamming E on a low CD, having mantra returned to you immediately just for landing a mantra'd q, etc.), and is rather boring in comparison with her mid-lane playstyle. However, it's insulting to assume that Karma players who enjoy her in the support role (myself included) play her because she's FOTM; remind me, when has she had a 53% winrate or higher? When has she "dominated pro play" (which, by the way, I couldn't give less of a damn about)? Although I'm sure she's been used in the LCS, and might even have been temporarily effective, I doubt it lasted for more than one or two patches. And how about her pick rate; has she been as popular as the classic Thresh/Vayne combo of Season 5 (which is when I picked her up)?

I agree with you that Riot has failed miserably in addressing solo lane Karma, and I've never understood why. Right now, she has decent damage, but it comes from one ability (Q/RQ). Her W (although potentially doing decent damage) is not only so uninteractive that they had to make it weak, but they also made it only do two ticks of damage so she doesn't get mantra back anywhere near as easily as her mantra'd Q (which makes mantra'd W seem even less appealing than it already is). Mantra W used to do a BUNCH of damage, and it certainly had more than two ticks, so it felt strategic in choosing RW over RQ in certain situations; now, whenever my health is low, I RW without second thought. How horribly boring.

Although I distinctly recall her shield bomb, I never used it for the sake of doing damage; it was less practical than just using her mantra'd Q. I can totally understand the frustration though. I will never support the idea of removing something just due to its unpopularity; there was no justification for removing her shield bomb from what I saw (it did little damage, people seldom used it for the sake of damage anyways, it didn't help mantra come off CD as fast as a well time mantra'd Q did, etc.), and it just pissed Karma players off even more.