Let's talk Poppy, let's talk Riot balance

Tremaursen·5/16/2018, 4:18:33 AM·68 votes·17,252 views
Champion.gg - Poppy Top Stats, Builds, Runes, Masteries and Counters

This is honestly a discussion we should not need to have, but here we are. Poppy now currently sits at at number 46 out of 48 for plat+ winrate. Now, this isn't a raw discussion about her being in a rough spot, (though yes, I am a Poppy main, and I am salty about it) this is more to address how Riot has handled this situation. Poppy was previously at spot number 40 until 8.9 when Riot for some reason decided that she didn't need a buff but rather an "adjustment". This is the same patch where Dr.Mundo was buffed so hard he shot up an astounding 34 places, now currently sitting at number 2. The fact that they figured they should outright buff that ball of stats while adjusting a champion who was then doing WORSE is concerning at best. The reason this has me so worked up is because it is just another example in a long line that shows that Riot's balance team has absolutely no idea what they are doing and are hurting the game.

The only two champs doing worse than Poppy top lane at this moment are Galio and Gnar, both very fun and interesting champs that Riot also has clearly no idea how to balance because the moment they become even somewhat strong they plague all levels of play and need to be nerfed to oblivion again. While Poppy doesn't share this issue of outright oppression when she is strong, one has to look at those other two as well and wonder if Riot only knows how to balance one role at a time. This is the same team who greenlit oneshot Galio, despite every stage of PBE warning them not to go through with it. They even made an official statement saying that change was completely intentional and then had to hotfix it NO MORE THAN A DAY after it's release.

These kinds of decisions hurt the game, they hurt players who want to be able to enjoy their champs that are so much harder to get than ever before. What's probably the worst though, is that no matter how vocal their playerbase gets the balance team seems to prioritize ignoring them and then refusing to own up for the mistakes that should have never happened in the first place. In the case of Poppy, while some where optimistic about her changes, the majority of players that I saw who knew what her strengths where easily recognized this change as a straight up nerf. Though I think neither I nor them could have anticipated just how much it was going to hurt her. It is absolute insanity that a champion could drop from 40 to 46 without any changes to the champs beneath them. The top tiers can be volatile, and it's easy to observe frequent drops and climbs as both playrate and minor changes to items and runes can mean the difference of a percent between patches, which can be a decent rank displacement. At the bottom however, global changes are less significant and playrates are low, which makes it hard for champions to change even a few places without major changes. In Riot's words however, Poppy received "changes last patch" that "where intended to be power neutral"

What an absolute joke.

You don't drop that hard from neutral changes, you drop that hard from outright nerfs. You can't pretend this is anything short of an absolute embarrassment. The fact that you are trying to claim they where intended to be neutral just shows that you have no idea how to go about those kinds of changes on top of the fact that the very idea that you thought a champ in that position deserves anything less than a buff is insulting to the players who actually care about this game's balance. Your attempt at a "neutral power" adjustment changed one of the worst champions at their role to one of the worst champions in the game period. That is a serious problem and you owe better to the players, not only for this, but for the many horrendous examples of "balance" that you have churned out without a care in the world.

And yes, I am mad

83 Comments

YuGiHo5/16/2018, 7:05:31 AM40 votes

I could think of a few other champs that could use a "neutral power adjustment" CoughCoughYasuo

Zálamander5/16/2018, 7:34:06 AM19 votes

Don't worry. Poppy is getting 5 movement speed back.

Carefull balance team, you don't want to overbuff her!

A very good post by the way. Don't forget to mention Lux, who got a ton of buffs.

Teridax685/16/2018, 11:52:19 AM16 votes

What worries me is that the change was done by the designer responsible for Poppy's VGU. When other Rioters stepped in to try to defend her changes, they even pointed that out the person making these changes was the most qualified and in-tune with her design out of anyone in the company. If the most qualified person on the design team, who is also a veteran at balancing League, landed their pet champion in such a bad spot when attempting "power neutral" changes, it would explain why we've had so many champion adjustments that have been so far off the mark, including the massive overbuffs to Mundo, Kai'Sa, or Galio this year. I don't think it's fair to expect people to get things perfectly right on the first try, but one would assume that there would be a more reliable methodology behind evaluating or implementing these changes beyond just seeing how things turn out.

Total Eclipse5/16/2018, 9:52:17 AM9 votes

This post is steaming with ignorance. You should be disappointed in yourself as a League player who mains a champion. What we saw in the changes were a trade: taking away some of her ballostats, and giving her improved mechanics, which I like to refer to as swagger. And, to top it off, now you got your movespeed back, which you completely failed to mention. Let me sum up the buffs first, since you seem to think that there are none, which is so god damn far from the truth. Edit: You wanna talk Poppy? Let's talk Poppy.

Increased wallbang range. If I had a dollar for every time Poppy missed her wallbang on me by 30 units, sheerly because I flexed SO hard to dodge it, I would be a very rich man. I'm definitely going to tilt a little the next time a Poppy lands a bullshit Heroic Charge on me. That's power in your hands now you god damn fool. The net range on this bs is literally equivalent to a Caitlyn auto attacking with a goddamn Rapid Firecannon in her inventory. And you have the nerve to shrug off this important buff, AND shit talk Riot when they give this swagger to you.

Increased passive range. Poppy has an incredible, extremely powerful passive when used properly. Once you have just a bami's cinder, maybe a giant's belt too, your buckler gives you an enormous shield. You can now last hit from an even safer distance, which is actually exactly equal to Vladimir's auto attack range, for effing reference. This isn't MASSIVE because the shield doesnt land 30 degrees closer to you or anything, but the ability as a whole is VERY powerful and it's usabability, or swagger, WAS increased.

Increased ultimate speed. Now this one, was big. It was already really fast, and, sound familiar?, this is a very powerful ability in the right hands. Before, it was fast, and now, it strikes like lightning. Literally among THE fastest, AND widest skillshots in the game after the 25% increase in speed. Now, a player with a brain should literally never miss it. A main like yourself might even land this teamfight turning ability at its max range of..... wait, am I reading this right.... 1900 units............

The ultimate's knockup "change". This one I'm going to say is a buff. 25% less CC time, but now Yasuo can effing ult onto it. Brand can W. Vlad can E. Ori can ult it. Mf can ult it. Anything dude. Gp barrels. Sivir Q. Graves Q. Alistar could knock them up even further. The list LITERALLY does not end. Every single game you play, there will be an opportunity for your team to use this change to your advantage, but here you are, the Poppy main, shitposting about how these changes were a "strict nerf".


Ok. now let's look at the nerfs!

You can tank 10% less damage on what is already one of the single tankiest champs in the game .......................................Yep, thats fucking it. Oh wait actually, your movespeed also went from godly whatthefuck to just really, rreally fast. For reference, 30% movespeed is what phase rush would grant at, what level? Level 11. Yep. That shit was strong as hell, and really.. Still is. And I just realized that it only even affects you from level 14-18.


Before I flame you for talking shit about the balance team (as a fucking Poppy MAIN bro), let's take a look at WHY these buffs to swag and nerfs to ballofstats hurt her winrate. What is the play rate of this champ on champion.gg, aka the bible for people who think one site can sum up the true balance of a champ? 1%. Meaning if you go out and play 100 games, roughly 50 HOURS of gameplay, you will see a Poppy in top lane 1 time. Hm....... Now, did you stop to take a look at the average # of games played for those 1 players in 100 games? Bet you fucking didn't. I'll fill you in. It's 4. Meaning that, on average, when those extremely rare players pick Poppy, it's their 4th time playing her in rank. That puts her at 39/48th for least mained champion currently, ahead of a couple guys like Garen and Mundo who are being played bc buffs. So when a champ gets a buff to playability but a nerf to her raw stats, I'm not at all shocked that her winrate dropped 3%.


What is "absolute insanity" is that a Poppy MAIN failed to see ALL the good in these changes. This post was "honestly" not a discussion, but a shit post from a player who does not even love this game for what it really is. I can tell this because you completely overlooked a lot of buffs to Poppy's actual gameplay. Your attempt at a "discussion" fell flat on its face, as you were completely biased and looked at the changes through the lense of "my gameplay would be better if Poppy got buffed". You also put a lot more words and time into shittalking the balance team, who has granted us playability to a VERY solid champ pool in EACH lane, instead of talking real shit about how the 10% less armor and mr could possibly affect your gameplay, or about how now your W won't enable you to catch up to....... Wait a sec, dude, who tf can actually outwalk a 30% bonus ms at the press of a button which also stops their dashes from functioning? Back to what I was saying. YOU should be the one ashamed of yourself for FAILING to recognize what kind of power Riot handed to you as a MAIN of a champion. This post is actually what's embarrassing.


Lastly, I want to mention that Poppy has been strictly buffed (in the literal sense. Not in your twisted sense of what is a strict buff or nerf.) since season 6 until right now. Meaning Poppy has only grown stronger, and stronger, and stronger, since she was being SPAMMED in pro play, which we ALL remember. Lastly, as a tip to you, and I'd like to reference to your comment about how Poppy is not oppresive when fed. I played a game as Mid into an enemy Poppy top who did really well, probably thanks to her excellent laning game. She assassinated the fuck out of me with Trinity Force Duskblade, a build which is almost ENTIRELY untouched by these changes. 10% of all that 0 bonus armor and mr (in exchange for ABSOLUTELY no excuse to mess up your E with this build). Just build HP and abuse that broken passive dude.

FridgeD5/16/2018, 11:48:21 AM9 votes

Yeah this is balance team at its best. Also in this patch: lets take away the ms on runic echos, because mana and cdr is all elise, nida, eve players need. kappa And: lets take away xp from junglers so that poor yasuo/riven mains dont have to worry about early ganks. (it is season 8!!!)

MAGA MAN X 20205/16/2018, 9:48:39 PM7 votes

Tanks are literally unplayable, its not a Poppy issue. They've dramatically shifted power into carries/bruisers that unless you get that lucky tank vs tank match up or a jg willing to camp you, tanks are not playable. You're literally inting by picking one.

T4underbolt5/16/2018, 9:39:36 AM6 votes

You know what is a joke? You claiming poppy is in a bad spot when you can miss half of her abilities and not pick up a shield and still out trade actual fighters while building literally 0 dmg items. Seems fun to get run down by a champion that builds defensive items so you neither can dmg it but it still deals so much dmg to you that its pointless to even trade or fight. The only thing that anyone who doesnt directly counter tanks can do vs tank in lane, is not laning vs tank at all. You need to pray tank player wont be aggresive so you can farm or you are forced to roam constantly which usually cost you xp, gold and everything since making plays and killing opponents is not rewarding anymore. As long as tanks can deal all that dmg and render anyone useless while playing passive and building resistance and hp, no buffs should be given to tanks.

Subject 55/16/2018, 10:42:01 PM5 votes

I used to main Poppy,

but even in her prime when she was strong, she wasn't to the extreme that it was overbearing. In the case that she managed to get a bunch of kills and secure a ton of gold for herself, if carries got that gold, they'd be 1 shotting people out of the ball park. Poppy is a good design that wasn't supported by the carry community. It's startlingly surprising to see that a champion I really liked and mained for quite some time took such a drop because of careless and ignorant decisions. When she is ahead she . . . doesn't die? I'm sorry, does she run around bursting people down with unrivaled mobility? Does she make the game unbearable when she's ahead? Why exactly was she hit so god damn hard even before this change?

Ignorant: Unknowing of what Poppy serves as a champion, unknowing of how to balance an unknown champion; resulting in unknowingly destroying a champion that wasn't known in the first place. It's like a mechanic trying to fix his computer, he doesn't fucking know what he's doing.

I don't see why fighters, dueling champions and mostly AD champions are allowed in the jungle / Top. The very moment that somebody who is a tank enters the JG, they just get smacked across the face with a piss soaked hand: Poppy Amumu Nautilus I would rather be run down and killed by these guys that offer me the ability to run away without instantly dying compared to Rengar Khazix LeeSin

Tanks and bruisers actually allow cooperation and, like, you know. That one word that means engagement in the game.

Bonipherus5/16/2018, 12:42:50 PM5 votes

I remember when Vladimir got some changes in the patch notes at some point a long time ago but the changes never actually shipped. the result was him having a lower win rate due to the perceived player notion that he was weaker even though he was exactly as strong as before. I say give it a bit of time to adjust while trying out new runes/builds/playstyles and stay positive.

Merlinez5/16/2018, 12:48:39 PM5 votes

lol one of the tankiest champion on the game the poor girl dies to 3 vayne autos rofl.

CarameI Frappe5/16/2018, 5:47:18 PM4 votes

Can't even play Poppy as a support anymore, and that was already kind of risky since other champions outperform her in what she does in the support role (Braum Alistar Leona) ect.

What is she good for now ...?

Guttler5/16/2018, 3:55:07 PM4 votes

Poppy really sucks now. No reason to play her over Cho, Mao, Ornn, really any top lane tank they have more reliable CC, are tankier, and have similar levels of daamge without needing to land wallstuns.

iTaLenTZ5/16/2018, 5:56:15 PM3 votes

Gnar doesn't deserve buffs. He needs a minirework. He is a jack of all trades who is extremely unfun and toxic when meta. I have never laned vs Gnar and thought "well that was fun and balanced".

Rainfall5/16/2018, 5:48:26 PM2 votes

Riot has been doing this for years,a certain champion pool that is 1/3rd of the entire champion pool are LCS exclusive champions that are balanced around LCS and not league of legends,some of the most distinct champions in that pool are ryze,nidalee,lissandra and poppy.I feel sorry for poppy mains because poppy was actually good for some time after her reworked and had a good winrate and playrate in both solo queue and the LCS so a lot of players got baited into maining her,the same thing is currently going to happen to Orn and what pyke is destined for a month before his realise.

Brain Errör 4045/16/2018, 2:30:19 PM1 votes

Her winrate is higher now than before the "nerfs". I'm just putting that out there.