Taming Tank Karma

SilverSquid·11/18/2019, 3:33:13 PM·9 votes·8,576 views

TL;DR at the bottom

As a Karma fan of 7 years, I'd like to talk about Tank Karma for a second. Because even though I enjoy the occasional off meta build, I personally find her to be atrocious. But let's look at what she does first.

Speedy Karmzales, Creator of Aneurysms

Put bluntly, Tank Karma works because of 3 things:

  1. Her abilities are short and slow enemies, root them and speed up herself, easily kiting melee champions in her own AA range.
  2. Iceborn Gauntlet, Shield Bash and Cleptomancy perfectly synergize with that abusive playstyle, not only adding damage, but also value to this death of a thousand stings style of laning
  3. Mantra'd W. It scales waaayyyy to well with tank stats and nobody has yet been able to explain to me why.

Luckily Cleptomancy will be gone in Patch 9.23. There's a good chance that this will cause Tank Karma to topple of the cliff of viability back into the pit of cheesy jank, but I fear she might arise at any point. Because Tank Karma HAD been a thing before Cleptomancy was. In the end, it just adds value.

Let me quickly assure you that I am fan of having Karma in sololanes - especially toplane - because historically she has always had a place there. However, the current style feels incredibly unhealthy and abusive, depending on the matchup. My vision is to make Karma more viable in a healthy style, and I tend to call this "battlemage". Alongside other mages like Swain and Vlad I believe she could have a place up there, that focuses less on her basic attacks or item/rune-abuse. For that to happen, a few things need to happen.

What Do You Mean, She Has Mantra up again???

Let's talk some facts! With Tank Karma's core items (IG, Athenes, Ardent) at max level the following is true:

  • Mantra has a CD of 19.8s
  • Mantra's CD reduces by 4s per spell hit and 2s per AA
  • W has a cooldown of 6.6s
  • Hitting both parts of a W plus 2 AAs effectively allows you to mantra every W
  • Mantra's and W's cooldown start when cast.

This means Karma can heal herself twice for 20% of her missing hp within 2s, root you for over 3,25s and then, not even 2s after you freed yourself, Karma has RW up again.

This is URF levels of stupid. And that's not even talking about what the heal does. Because look at this mess!

My Math's Teacher Told Me I'd Need This

If you are a normal human being, I am sorry for making you read all those numbers. For everyone else ( Tips Teemo Hat: M'Nerds! ), take a look at these simplified Karmas:

NUDE Karma (No worries, she is already 18!) that donated her income to Ionian orphans has [2000 base hp] and [40 base mr] which equals [2800 effective mr hp]. If she is at 20% of her max hp (550) and casts RW, she heals by 20% = 450 back up to 1000 effective mr hp.

MAGE Karma with [500 AP] on top of her [2000 base hp] and [40 base mr] and thus also [2800 effective mr hp]. If she is at 20% of her max hp (550) and casts RW, she heals by 25% = 550 back up to 1100 effective mr hp.

TANK Karma with only Spirit Visage on top of her base stats has [2500 hp] and [100mr] equalling [5000 effective mr hp]. If she is at 20% of her max hp (1000) and casts RW, *she heals by 20%1,3 = ~1000 back up to ~2.000 effective mr hp.

So here are your options:

  • Without items you heal by 450
  • With 12,5k worth of mage items you heal by 550
  • With 2,8k worth of SV you heal by 1000

This of course is ignoring effective AR hp and true damage and runes and all that shizzazle, but it's just to prove a point. RW encourages building tank. EXTREMELY so. This also means whenever the heal on RW is somewhat reasonable on a Mage or Support Karma, on Tank Karma it's bound to be borderline broken, bonkers and baloneys.

Dat Heal and Dem Base Damages

I think there is no denying that lategame Karma has her mantra up SLIGHTLY too often and her heal is unreasonably high with tank stats. But again, I do think it should be possible to build Karma a bit tanky, so she can handle toplane, but with THIS kind of heal there is no point in NOT abusing it. As a solution I think Karma should have a FLAT heal that scales with AP and low health. Not actual health, not effective health, just being low. This would make the heal instantly more valuable for Mid and Support Karma, but still somewhat desireable for Top Karma, who can more easily guarantee the second heal, often doubling its effectiveness.

But there's another thing about Tank Karma.

Karma doesn't need damage items, because her base damages are pretty good. They ought to be, because Support Karma needs the damage in her kit, otherwise she does nothing but RE lategame (which tends to happen already). So any nerf to her base damages would gut Support Karma, the one lane Riot seems to actually care about her being in. So they awkwardly had to nerf the AP ratio on Q which felt just dumb and hit Mage Karma like a mercyless anime truck.

Buuuuut there could be another way!

In a recent rework suggestion I proposed having Karma scale with support stats. If heal/shielding power increased her magic damage by some percent, you could nerf her base damages without hurting support Karma. On the contrary, maybe even allowing her to have her damage stay relevant lategame. Additionally, it would open up new and unique buildpaths for her kit and bring her different lane roles a bit closer together.

So let's sum this up:

TL;DR

  • Kleptomancy might be gone, but Tank Karma could arise again any patch.
  • RW's heal ASKS you to build tank and is up way too often.
  • RW should NOT have a %missinghp heal, but a flat+AP heal that scales with low hp
  • If Karma's damage scaled with supp items, base damages could be nerfed, invalidating Tank Karma's damage, but allowing Support Karma's damage to stay relevant.
  • Maybe this could replace the toxic Tank Karma with Battlemage Karma top.

Now I ask you:

What's your opinion on Tank Karma? Do you like my approach? Have you found a solution yourself? Do you think I missed something? Let me know in the comments!

25 Comments

Warden Karma11/18/2019, 3:48:20 PM4 votes

I agree that her current Mantra design has its flaws; Rather then being situation dependend, they are choosen depending on your build/role. In case of RW that leads to a boring and uninteractive playstyle.

I think "tank" Karma shouldnt be a thing, however, a battlemage (and more interactive/decisive) Karma would be great. Her Passive refunds too much cooldown, her manacosts are too low, Mantra decision is way too low, on top of boring or unhealthy ability concepts (All damage RQ, Tank Heal RW, Backline spamming RE).

Making RW restoring a flat (+%AP), increased by missing health would definetely be better than its current version (also please remove the extra root). Giving her more magic damage for building Heal/shieldpower might be a nice touch/fixing point too.

wolvius11/18/2019, 7:23:34 PM2 votes

https://vimeo.com/313711798

Everyone but shyvana had Void staff btw. A maokai with same items wouldn't have been able to tank as much, I don't think any tank would have been able to.

https://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUW1/3908616612/237941931?tab=builds&participant=9

space newt11/18/2019, 9:34:06 PM1 votes

Sorry dude you lost me at NUDE Karma.

Yeah, don't say it, I know.

HungryAngry2SPP11/18/2019, 11:17:26 PM1 votes

Karma top would not be so problematic if she didn't have heal on RW at all.

jocomotion11/19/2019, 5:49:47 AM1 votes

You are singing the most insightful songs to fall on deaf ears. Everything you speak is 100% true but besides most Karma players people will either focus their hatred through Karma or she’ll continue to be ignored.

evilsforreals11/19/2019, 5:29:45 PM1 votes

Maybe implementing a passive into the W:

(passive) Karma heals for a base amount each time she damages an enemy while an enemy is tethered/rooted. This rewards a Karma that can stick to an enemy long enough to root them.

Then the %missing health could be reduced to maybe 15% on RW, since she now gains a base/scaling heal, but still completely reliant on her damage output. Idk just a thought

TSM Karma11/19/2019, 10:00:01 PM1 votes

Hey, nice post, and i think a lot of what you said is true. My opinion is a BIT biased because Tank Karma is very importat to me (otp with 800k champ points, playing almost exclusively Tank Karma). Yes, Tank Karma is annoying to play against. But personally i dont think it's much worse than Mundo running you over (just as an example, because i think a lot of thinks are annoying). I don't think that this is the Problem. But... is there a problem? Personally, i dont think that Tank Karma in itself is or has a Problem. She has streghts and weaknesses and may not be fun to Play against, but she is definitly not OP, or way more People would play it. Some may call her one-dimensional, but that's not true. You can choose between so many different build paths and even change your keystone, you have to think a lot about it. Does your team have a hypercarry? Go and be a second support, especially if you have a naut sup. Then Maybe you won't even build your core items like ibg or sv and just be a full support. If your team lacks dmg, build more dmg. You Need to be a tank? Well there you go. You can also take other Keystones, sometimes lethal tempo, Grasp, Comet, or aery may be better than Klepto.

So what is the problem? The problem is that BECAUSE OF THIS Karma is very hard to balance. But you know that. To your changes: I think that removing the %missinghp heal would just make Tank Karma much worse, nothing else. I guess you could balance ap and support Karme better this way but it shouldn't go at the cost of another playstyle, because i think that a tanky playstyle should exist. Not just because i like to play it, but because Karma, for me, is really flexible and can do a lot of different Things. And it should stay like that. Having her dmg scale with the heal/shield-sup items is a nice idea, but i think it would just put Tank Karma in a position where she has to build at least 2 of these items, so she is less flexible. If this is what you want, okay. You said that she has her Mantra too often. I think that's kinda true, but again, i don't think that Tank Karma in itself should be nerfed because i don't think she is op. If you think so, go and nerf her w cd, that should do it. In late game you have Mantra 3 seconds earlier than W if you use R-W in a 1v1 and q and aa the enemy anyways, so nerfing her W cd is the best way to hurt Tank Karma if you wan't to. :-(

I see the problem that Karma is hard to balance with her playstyles. But I don't think that Tank Karma needs to be nerfed. I love to play it, but I'm actually playing more and more AP Karma and Vlad because Tank Karma is utterly useless if your Team can't carry. You said you wanted to make her into a battlemage, and maybe this could somehow work and in addittion make her less dependend on your team. But I'm not sure, and I'm really bad at game designa and balancing. I just know that i love to play Tank Karma and i don't want this playstyle to be removed.

So yeah that's it, these are my thoughts. I'm not a good writer so i apologize. And i'm just a Gold scrub, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm just pretty bad at the game in General, but Karma is very important to me. Anyways, Thanks for your thoughts!

Popstar Kogmaw11/18/2019, 4:05:32 PM1 votes

I've only ever played tank Karma on ARAM. I've never used klepto; I always found Grasp to be enjoyable.