@SmashGizmo: In-Depth discussion about Veigar Changes
Hello SmashGizmo, Rioters, and browsers of the boards!
Today I'm going to talk to you about Veigar. Now, as a heads up, the full post is going to be rather long, as I'll be not only comparing Veigar to other similar mages in his position (namely Syndra) but I will also be doing a thematic overview and making recommendations for changes to his kit since the removal of DFG, and responding to Meddler's comments on what Riot is looking at for potential changes to his kit. Here is a link to a google.doc I made containing the full post for any who care to read it:
https://docs. google.com/document/d/15Or4wgYf09CA6AHOyHvTuI9CB8VbSn1e_K98LT-Sibo/edit?usp=sharing
[there is a space inbetween the docs. and google.com which one must remove in order to get to the link. Unfortunately it was embedding the doc in the middle of the post and really throwing off the flow and I had no idea how to fix this]
I can understand many of you will not care to read this, so I have also included my proposed changes to Veigar's kit, and the reasoning behind them below. I only ask that you don't read it, don't downvote it to oblivion because you are afraid of text. Additionally, if you like any of the changes I have made, feel free to comment and add to the discussion. Lastly, if you want more background as to why certain things got changed and more in-depth analysis on Veigar as a champion, how his kit works together both functionally and thematically, I would like to direct you to the google docs link. Thanks!
Re-Balancing Veigar in a post-DFG Valoran
First off, I wish to address some of the proposed Veigar Changes in SmashGizmo's latest post:
Veigar's Q as a skill shot: While Veigar's 2 'point-and-click' nukes are a bit much and he could use a skill shot, the making his Q a skill shot is not the proper way to re-balance him. Though not line skill shots like Ezreal has, Veigar's W and E can already be considered skill shots as it takes a lot of practice to land the E precisely and the W has such a delay that it allows the enemy to easily dodge. Speaking of delays, having a .75 second delay on Veigar's stun while telegraphing where it is going to land is absolutely ridiculous! For abilities that aren't channel abilities (like Karthus ult) the longest cast time is Thresh's Q, at .5 sec cast time, whereas everything else is either instantaneous or a .25 second cast time. The reason Thresh's Q works so well even with double the cast time is because it was designed specifically so that the enemy has NO IDEA WHERE IT IS GOING! Thresh can literally be looking forward, wind up looking forward, and throw the chain behind him and that is what causes enemies to be caught because they are not expecting the hook to go that way. If you give the enemy a particle indicator of which way Thresh's Q is going, I guarantee he will never see the light of day in competitive play again. So to put Veigar's E on a delay TRIPLE that of the normal cast time, where his W already has a 1.25 second delay from when it is cast to when it deals damage, you are ensuring that neither his W or E will ever hit unless in the midst of a chaotic team fight, and even then it's doubtful. Additionally, if you are making his Q a skill shot with all of this, it'll be wonder if he ever is able to damage a champion again. I'll get into the merits of Q being targeted later, but he needs to have a source of reliable damage. Having low range was a weakness of his already, keep that as his weakness instead of buffing his range but of making him unable to deal damage. If anything should be a skill-shot, it is his ultimate.
As far as things which I would 100% want to see in a re-balancing would be lower mana cost on Ultimate (so it isn't 225 at rank 3) and get rid of his equilibrium passive. For Veigar's kit and theme, %increased mana regen based on missing mana A) doesn't make sense, and B) proves to be basically insignificant. When you have enough mana to do a full combo or harass in lane with spells, the mana regen amounts to basically nothing. When you're nearly oom, you'll end up getting enough to have 1 spell every 30 seconds maybe (calculating only the mana gained from his passive, not his base). In contrast, Xerath/Lissandra both get free spells far more frequently. I'd much rather see his Q passive to gain AP reworked as his main passive, or a mana regen passive which is actually useful.
Passive: Equilibrium removed. New Passive - Torment: Killing minions and monsters permanently stacks .5 AP. This bonus is doubled against large minions and monsters. Champion kills and assists permanently stack 10 and 5 AP, respectively. While this may seem like a lot of AP which can be gained, it is actually less than live if you were to merely stick to farming with Q's. A total of 6 AP (8 for cannon waves) can be secured with live veigar and proper CD's etc... but this would require perfect CS to get half of that (3, or 4 for cannon). This is to discourage an AFK farm-to-win style where massive AP can be gained from simply last hitting with Q. In return, AP value for champion kills is doubled and assists are now included in the stacking minigame because there are many players who choose to play Veigar in the support role and they should be rewarded for assisting with the kills.
Q: Baleful Strike - Passive Removed Range: 650 Cost changed to 40/50/60/70/80 from 60/65/70/75/80 mana Cooldown: 4 Seconds Active: Magic Damage changed to 80/110/140/170/200 + 75% AP from 80/125/170/215/260 + 60% AP
Q is Veigar's main form of farming and trading in lane, yet when compared to other mages this ability had a fairly long CD early for very high mana costs. Given that its old function was also what allowed for AP scaling, that is understandable. However, now that farming with Q won't give you AP more than farming any other way will, I have reduced its early game mana costs (they will scale up to the same as live at rank 5) and cooldown and adjusted base damage down and AP scaling up to compensate. For comparison, Syndra's Q and Annie's Q at rank 5 have the same CD and Mana cost as Veigar's Q. Annie's Q has 220 Base damage and 80% AP Scaling, Syndra (against champions) has 264.5 base with 69% AP Scaling.
W: Dark Matter - Range: 900 Radius: 125 units Delay: 1.25 sec Cooldown: 10 Cost: 60/70/80/90/100 Magic Damage: 100/150/200/250/300 + 100% AP.
This changed very little from live; for reducing the base damage by 20 at all ranks I have reduced the mana cost by 10 at all ranks and slightly increased the AoE radius from 112.5 to 125. This overall is increasing the area by 10%, or 78.5 total Units. I wanted to keep the same feel of a powerful AoE nuke, but opted not to decrease the cooldown or delay as that would require power to be adjusted in other areas.
E: Event Horizon - Same as live There's not much I can do to this ability that won't make it either useless or completely OP. As a Veigar player, I'd love it if the center of the cage had additional CC effects (like Soraka's Silence or some form of Slow) but then the stun duration would almost certainly need to be reduced, which could make hitting the combo impossible depending on how short it became. The ult is where I got most creative and as a result I have a few iterations of it:
R: Primordial Burst - Cost 100 mana at all ranks (down from 125/175/225) NOW A SKILL SHOT Cooldown: 130/110/90 Magic Damage: 250/375/500 + 120% AP New function: Marks the target with a singularity for 5 seconds. The when active singularity stores 30%/40%/50% of the magic damage dealt by Veigar. After 5 seconds or upon second activation the singularity will explode, dealing the stored damage to all units in a 400-unit radius from the afflicted champion and slowing enemies for 30%/40%/50%. Before you shout MORE BROKEN THAN RIVEN'S SWORD, unlike Zed's deathmark, this would not deal bonus damage in addition to the damage dealt. Rather, a target marked by Veigar's ult would actually take reduced damage from him during that time they are marked, only to have it explode up to 5 seconds later (or upon re-activation) in an AoE, which can damage the entire enemy team. This gives Veigar a lot of strategic diversity on how his ult will be used; Veigar can use it to catch high priority targets, like say a 18-2 vayne, and try to 1-shot her. Or, it can also be saved for teamfights, where you mark someone who will now deal massive damage to their allies if they try to help (Don't click the lanturn, I'll die!). Marking someone will essentially force their team to separate from them or risk taking significant damage. While you still retain the power to nuke squishies, it wouldn't be quite as strong as before. So if your ult slows, do you Stun(E)+W+Ult+Q, or do you try to just Ult+Q and then catch up to them with the slow to land the stun and E+W+Q for maximum damage? Will you get caught out trying to maximize your damage potential this way? Alternative Ult Ideas (these will not be as detailed as above): 2) Cost 100 at all ranks (Seriously that needs to happen) Same CD/Base Damage as live, 150% AP Scaling, No scaling off of enemy AP, ult is a line skill shot. 3) Cost 100 at all ranks. CD same as live. Base Damage: 350/450/550, 100% AP Scaling, Ult is a slow skill shot with AoE Burst (Think Corki's Phosphorus Bomb, but not quite as big an area, yet larger than W, maybe 200 unit Radius)
I had been talking with someone about the nature of Veigar's E, and he/she made a suggestion which I cannot help but include:
Veigar's E now works similarly to Lux's E, Graves' W, and his own E, and will receive a radius nerf as well (300 radius vs 375). Veigar throws a ball of dark energy to a target location for up to 5 seconds, slowing all enemies in it by 10% and limiting their vision. After 5 seconds or upon activation, the ball of dark energy explodes into a stun cage, where the edges will stun enemies for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds.
This is a direct nerf to the cage size and the stun duration, but has a slight bit of added utility in that there is a minute slow and the ability to impair vision.