Ashe vs CC immune champions

Kank·12/11/2015, 8:58:17 PM·47 votes·4,349 views

Hello there. This is going to be my first post on this forum. First of all let me tell you: I am just a casual player. I'm not famous, I'm not challenger, I'm not even the best Ashe EU or something. I am just player, that is fixated on Ashe. I’ve played league since season 2, recently I bought all the champions and I have won almost 3000 normal games, so I spent a lot of time on league. I have played every single champion and I enjoy playing a lot of them, but playing Ashe provides me with an indescribable feeling...( call me a pervert if you want).

Ashe, before the 5.9 rework was a completely different champion. At the beginning I didn't do very well. I was often on dying streaks. My friends were asking me, why do I even play her. They were telling me that this champion is kinda weak, has no damage spells, has no escape mechanics, that she requires an organised team that will defend me etc.. But somehow, I felt that this is a champion for me. I know, you guys don't want to read my life story. What I mean is, I worked really hard to improve my skills on Ashe, to understand the champion and how to build her properly, how to deal with assassins or tanks flashing on my face. I was dealing with painful and sad games, I was dealing with other people's flame( I'm kinda sensitive). After like 50 games I was doing pretty well with Ashe, but still... I felt like I could achieve even more. When I hit like 150,000 points on Ashe, I noticed a difference. I was kiting enemies just as I wanted to, I was focusing the right targets and I was 1v1ing most Zeds. I am kinda proud of myself... I sacrificed a lot of hours to get on this level, I gave Ashe a lot of love and I really like her ( I know she likes me too <333).

Let's get to the point. Overall I think Rito is doing a great job at balancing the champions and reworking the marksmen. 5.9 patch made Ashe into a very individual champion with a very unique passive. Ashe was really underpowered in patch 5.22, but she seems to be fine in patch 5.24, so thanks for that Rito. But still...... as I write these words, I still cannot believe that Ashe's crit passive doesn't work on CC immune targets... This is truly unbelievable, to think that such professional company like Riot Rito Games who created the greatest competitive game, which clearly outranks any other online games in many, many aspects, allowed this problem to occur. For a company that knows a lot about balance and even more about counter play, I feel like this issue is ABSOLUTELY THE BIGGEST FAILURE OF RIOT GAMES IN THE HISTORY! Leaving this problem as it is, is the worst decision you can make. This would be fine, if this problem was fixed one or two patches after 5.9... But it’s still there in 5.24!!! this is more than ridiculous!.

I know these were some tough words. I feel kinda bad for that, but it's just unfair. But you should feel at least ashamed that you ignored this problem. I know that this is just one small problem that occurs from time to time whenever Ashe is put against a CC immune champion, but I really love Ashe and I feel like you are hurting her whilst not even knowing how serious this is.

Champions in league have different traits which decide how well they will do against each other. After all counter picking DOES EXIST in league of legends and I have nothing against that. For example Galio has a passive that scales with magic resists so fighting against an AP champion is ideal for him. This is absolutely fine, he is designed to build magic resists, and since every team should have some magic damage it makes this trait balanced. Even if he doesn’t play against an AP champions he still can do well in the game. Nasus and Malphite lower their enemy's attack speed, that is a very strong trait which gives an advantage when playing against AA based champions such as Tryndamere or Irelia. Veigar deals more damage with his ultimate to champions which have high values of AP. Notice that Cassiopeia gains bonus AP as part of her passive, Veigar would take advantage over this. This however is ok because his design says: "His ult should deal giant damage to enemy mages", I don't think anyone cares if Veigar will deal 130% of your HP or 150%. New Poppy interrupts dashes... it is quite questionable whether this ability should be implemented onto any champion. It is questionable because a lot of champions have dashes, perhaps Rito decided that she should be able to catch enemies that are out of position without mercy.

So why am I so against Ashe's inability to deal bonus damage against Master Yi or Olaf. Is it because I am a big fan of Ashe? No. The real problem is that YOU TOOK AWAY HER CRIT CHANCE AND CRIT DAMAGE for a powerful passive. An AD carry that cannot critically strike in the meta where most of items for ADCs give critical strike...

I know some of you guys may have not played Ashe before. Let me compare Ashe to Azir. Azir's soldiers are basically his basic attacks. When they are active he cannot attack otherwise. Can you imagine a champion that would be immune to the attacks of these soldiers? Or imagine if you were playing an AP champion against a new champion, that can silence you for 5 seconds, you become a worthless puppet, but at least you could still crit, because Rito didn’t take this away for a passive.

I know there was a discussion about this problem already. The explanation of this problem was simple: Clarity. It's logic: only slowed champions by Ashe can be crited( by saying crited in this post I mean getting bonus damage from the passive). So for a charging Olaf it's clear: "hey, I am not slowed because I cannot be slowed, therefore Ashe can't deal her bonus damage to me". I have nothing against the fact that Olaf or master Yi are immune to slows, but Ashe can't use her main source of damage on them... Ashe has paid high price for an ability that doesn't even work. It's even hard to call this a double edged sword. Ashe seems to be a suicide pick in draft games right now.

I did well in many games against Olaf, Master Yi or Morgana. I remember a few games where I had to play against Olaf and Master Yi in the same game. I am a quick learner though so after few deaths, I bought Zhonya ( I was pretty fed (called it Zhonyashe anyway)) and asked the my team to cover me while I was baiting them. I won that game :). But not every game ends up that well. In most of cases Olaf dives me and I am only able to deal 60/70% of his maximum hp.

To wrap-up this post(like a kebab AHAHA), I don't really know what was behind this disaster. Maybe the code was that good, that game automatically realized that Olaf should not be crited or maybe one of the companies you paid to test the game, said that slow immune targets shouldn't be crited, but in this case Riot should just separate the slow from the crit passive. I'm pretty sure there is a lot of solutions for this problem, but leaving the situation as it is with an excuse to making game more clarity isn't one of them.

Thank you, looking forward for a Riot's member reply, or any player's feedback.

63 Comments

OrganicT12/11/2015, 9:26:04 PM16 votes

As a Ashe lover myself, this isnt made to be this way. Ashe already have defined weakness, and it take time to master Ashe, the CC immune and slow immune shouldnt affect her damage passive, since she still apply the slow, it just have no effect. Its not like she was intentionally removing it.. She need that damage to stay reliant. She need a fix.

Hupsis12/12/2015, 12:05:29 AM12 votes

TL;DR version

OP mains Ashe and is attracted to her.

Also...

Ashe's passive slows enemies she hits and she does bonus damage to them at the cost of not being able to critically strike them normally (crits apply double the slow instead of double damage). However CC immune champions do not get slowed and thus Ashe cannot deal extra damage against them.

Since Ashe can't normally crit, it's not okay that she can't apply her bonus damage against CC immune enemies. CC immune targets are not immune to critical hits so they should not be immune to Ashe's extra damage which compensates her lack of being able to critically strike normally.

aperson112/12/2015, 4:57:59 AM8 votes

So true, it doesn't even make sense from a clarity standpoint since Dragon and Baron who is slow-immune take the extra damage. For me this is on the same level as saying Annie's spells should not affect Brand because he is on fire, it makes sense applied in the real world but in a video game it is a stupid edge case that adds nothing except matchup-specific imbalance and frustration...

Kira Dusk Edge12/12/2015, 3:20:53 PM5 votes

To anyone who cites counterplay as a reason Ashe should not deal bonus damage to CC and slow immune champions I ask you this. What is the counterplay to an Olaf charging your face? The counterplay is to focus him with damage so he dies before he can blow up your squishy. The only other counterplay to him is to use some form of invulnerability such as Zhonya's Hourglass or Tahm Kench devour to protect your sqishies.

Every adc in the game has the ability to accomplish the damage counterplay if their team helps... EXCEPT for Ashe. The reasoning being Ashe just like most other adcs rely on damage multipliers to kill tanks, something Ashe is denied because of the CC immunity. In this case are we supposed to say Ashe has to build Zhonya's Hourglass to counter Olaf? Are we saying you must have Tahm when playing vs Olaf as Ashe because it's the only viable way to protect her? Because both of those things seem silly.

A while a go riot said they disliked hard counters and prefer soft counters, and yet now they are going back on that design choice. After the remake Olaf hard counters Ashe hard when he was originally a soft counter. I find it amusing that riot has basically said screw Ashe she shouldn't have any counterplay herself against a Olaf.

I know someone is going to point out "But Zed is hard countered by Zhonya's!!!!". No he is not. If their mid lane builds a Zhonya's you still have the ability to blow up the adc. Plus in a team fight if the enemy mid lane is the issue your team should use something to bait the Zhonya's out for you. In this case Zed still has ways of assassinating his key target. Maybe your job is to bait the Zhonya's so your team can destroy her. The counterplay is there though. Olaf running at Ashe in comparison without a Tahm on her team is flash or die. Even if you flash there is a chance you will still die.

I understand clarity but couldn't you just change her passive to read sort of like Yasuo's passive and have 2 unique passives on it? such as...

"Ashes basic attacks slow targets for X Move Speed for X seconds. Ashe's critical strikes don't do bonus damage but doubles the slow.

If Ashe attacks a target she has already attacked in the past X seconds she deals X bonus damage to that target based on her critical strike."

Problem solved. She is functionally the same except she can now crit CC Immune targets. Obviously this needs work as this is just a draft but you get the picture. Clarity is not an issue when you can change wordings to fix minor issues such as these. Saying you can't make this change for clarity is like saying you can't make Tahm Kench devour target team mates because the term devour implies he's eating you and you don't want to kill team mates.

Maybe this is more on an issue with Olaf being a big ball of stats but either way Ashe has no counterplay without Tahm against Olaf. If Olaf was not such a ball of stats champion maybe I could see this being ok but for the time being you either win the duel or lose it and giving Ashe's team no way to fight back seems unfair not only to the Ashe player but to her team.

P.S. Thresh/Bard/Zilean can also be used. But it still seems unfair that if your opponent picks Olaf after Ashe you basically need one of these champions to help keep Ashe alive.

Critmaster Garen12/11/2015, 9:00:42 PM3 votes

what part of cc immune dont you get?

there will be no exception for ashe.

if i pick garen into an ashe, im going to be fucked, as its going to be impossible for me to move in a teamfight. if you pick ashe into an olaf, then youre fucked.

deal with it.

hotarse12/13/2015, 5:36:35 PM2 votes

The amount of people in here with the reading comprehension skills of a first grader is hilarious! OP never asked for the slow on cc immune champs, only for the crit. For the ashe player, this makes sense, for the cc immune champs, it also makes sense.

Dominick Destine12/11/2015, 10:45:05 PM2 votes

Basic Jan Ken Pon situation where Scissors wants Rock nerfed.

No character is exempt from having a hard counter of some type (Ex: Recent Poppy rework vs. Dashers)

ManaPot12/11/2015, 11:14:57 PM2 votes

Hey there! I also play a lot of Ashe myself, she is my most mastered champion and my favorite to play for quite a few reasons (ECA, Dat Ashe, etc.) and I have to admit that its super frustrating fighting against Olaf and Yi when they ult, especially because how little damage I feel like I'm doing because of the interactions with passive.

That said, I dunno man, I really could go for the increased damage, don't get me wrong, but I feel like its also a strength of CC immune champions to do well against Ashe, the CC utility adc. That's just my two cents anyway, would love a red response to see how they feel.

Paero12/12/2015, 9:44:14 AM2 votes

A few years ago, back around season 1, Teemos shrooms would not deal the dot damage to Master Yi if he was in his ultimate, he would take the initial burst damage but would not take the dot as it was couple to the slow effect, Riot was unaware of this until I mentioned it to Phreak.

As far as I know they changed it so that he would now take damage, maybe they just unaware

So to all the people giving OP a hard time, stfu he actually has a valid point

Leadpaintchips12/12/2015, 6:55:09 PM2 votes

This problem really flared up when we, as ADC's HAD to build crit to have that damage. Before the item rework, you could build straight damage or Armor Pen, sure it wasn't as effective, but it was a valid build path.

Now it's Crit or GTFO, Which gimps Ashe in this instance.

iMaB3AST12/12/2015, 11:33:41 PM2 votes

A simple solution would be to make her passive mark her target, this mark would allow her to crit that target and slow them and if the target is slow immune or cc immune then at least u will b able to crit them. I believe that her passive lets her crit only if the enemy is slowed by her.

Kank12/12/2015, 12:01:07 PM1 votes

So most of you guys, think that it's is totally fine to have a situation where in one out of 40 games, a marksman can't crit for 6 seconds. Well, I'm too tired to argue with you. Riot seems to be proud having such clear game from point of view of CC immune champions. I don't any Riot member will even see this post even though it's on their official forum... I am done. Maybe it's my destiny to suffer every time I play ashe against non CC champion.

The Governer12/12/2015, 3:31:25 AM1 votes

Her critical strikes give her bonus percentage slow only. What you were talking about is bonus damage dealt to frosted enemies (enemies that are slowed by Ashe's passive). It's not critical damage anymore.

Rebonack12/13/2015, 6:55:00 AM1 votes

And Kog blows himself up on Rammus and anyone with Thornmail.

Some champions have weaknesses.

ModKnightsKemplar12/12/2015, 9:10:39 PM1 votes

Ooh... yeah, I didn't really realize this damage doesn't go through on cc immune targets. That's really, really bad. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm gonna have to be more careful about choosing her until this gets addressed.

Old Man Teeto12/12/2015, 4:02:43 AM1 votes

Unfortunately, this is just one of the drawbacks to Ashe currently.

If it can't be slowed, it can't be crit. Seems to be working as intended whether it feels right or not. If anything, this doesn't occur too often, mainly against Yi, Olaf or Morganna shield.

Kouga12/12/2015, 6:33:34 AM1 votes

I agree with the general consensus I'm seeing here: for better or for worse, Slow-Immune targets being immune to Ashe's bonus damage is fair game. There are few enough cases of slow immunity that I don't think it is that major of a crutch. The ones often mentioned (Yi, Olaf) are locked into Ultimates so their windows are fairly small.

I'm curious, didn't they recently recode it so that her passive "frosted" damage boost isn't actually classified as a "crit" (instead its just bonus damage), but instead her "crits" double the slow amount? If so, then wouldn't that make Ashe's damage output immune to, say, Randuin's (which reduces damage from Critical Strikes by 10%)? At least in that case, Randuin's could be bought by anyone and Ashe technically has an edge against it, where the Slow Immunity thing is a fairly niche case.

Orangesilk12/12/2015, 1:29:50 AM1 votes

A Rioter has already talked about this, and I'm 87.3% sure it's Meddler. Anyways, the story is, as far as Riot is concerned, this is working as intended, and it's more a clarity thing for the people playing CC-immune champions, if you're immune to CC and see an Ashe you immediately think "Oh-ho, I'm immune to those crits!" because that's the intuitive interaction, making small exceptions like this is terrible game design because the players will feel frustrated at mechanics working a certain way but with a small exception.

Imagine if true damage could strike past Kayles ult, it'd be an interesting balancing tool for sure, and it'd allow some champions who absolutely RELY on that true damage to kill anything to not be immediately hard-countered by her Chogath Darius. However it'd create frustrating gameplay for the Kayle player as they'd read "You're immune to damage for the duration" and then suddenly they get slammed by a billion damage and it turns into "Whoops, you're immune, but with these exceptions under these conditions" It's not fun, it's not fair, and it's not intuitive, same goes for the CC-Immune champions being immune to these effects, they are COUNTING on that immunity, imagine if Olaf could be ulted after being hit by a Yasuo tornado even if he wasn't actually knocked-up to make things fair for the Yasuo player, it'd be terrible design, frustrating indeed.

That's why I hate Azirs wall so much, he creates a wall of "Impassable terrain" and then buggers like Fizz Olaf Maokai Morgana just waltz through despite not having blinks due to some fishy interactions, it's not intuitive, it's not good gameplay and it's frustrating.