I swear Riot didn't want their game to snowball.. Giving a 8% damage buff is retarded.. 9/10 the team that gets Dragon is the team with the winning bottom lane. That 8% buff makes it nearly impossible for a losing lane to come back.
Adrian RYC15 votesI can understand if it was the 4th buff. But the very first buff? That's silly. In my opinion, it should go like this.
First Dragon: Movement speed buff Second Dragon: 15% damage to minions Third Dragon: 15% damage to towers Fourth Dragon: 8% damage
Talamare31 votesI can understand if it was the 4th buff. But the very first buff? That's silly. In my opinion, it should go like this.
First Dragon: Movement speed buff Second Dragon: 15% damage to minions Third Dragon: 15% damage to towers Fourth Dragon: 8% damage
Ms Buff is literally the 2nd best buff, that one can't be 1st
More like 1st Dragon +15% damage to minions, this is the most important early game so that you can CS better. 2nd Dragon MS Buff, this is when ganks should become heavy and mobility in the game becomes an important factor 3rd Dragon +15% damage to towers, Sieging is the name of the game by this minute mark, and the goal is to destroy outer turrets if they are still up and work on inner turrets 4rd Dragon +8% Damage, The game has definitely shifted into roaming team fights, or even tower dives. Regardless the game is near ending and you need a clear advantage over your opponent to make progress 5th Dragon Double Everything, Okay seriously, how long is this game going to last? Just end it already
Narasimha1 votesThe problem with that, is you're just shifting the power. Now instead of straight up damage, you're basically giving a team more gold first. Extra damage to minions and monsters means easier to farm means more gold. Now a team has a heavy gold advantage, which is arguably worse. Likewise, the damage to towers is placed near the end because this is the point when sieging and pushing are very very important. Giving it too early means that one team gets a chance to end the game much much faster. Short of changing all the buffs, giving the damage first is actually the least of all the evils.
Talamare6 votesThe problem with that, is you're just shifting the power. Now instead of straight up damage, you're basically giving a team more gold first. Extra damage to minions and monsters means easier to farm means more gold. Now a team has a heavy gold advantage, which is arguably worse. Likewise, the damage to towers is placed near the end because this is the point when sieging and pushing are very very important. Giving it too early means that one team gets a chance to end the game much much faster. Short of changing all the buffs, giving the damage first is actually the least of all the evils.
Perhaps but think about it like this First of all +8% damage helps against minions too
While the +15% minion damage will HELP you CS better, it doesn't GUARANTEE you will CS better. If the opponent is really good at CSing he can probably CS your equal regardless. So there is no 100% promise of an advantage over your opponent
While you can kill creeps better, you are technically still equals when it comes to skirmishes and trades. It takes time to generate that additional gold from the CSing boost.
There is still counterplay options for your opponent as they can still deny you from CSing, either by trading when you go to CS. Pushing hard and try to force tower to steal your CS, especially effective if they CC you when you go to CS.
+8% Damage on the other hand provides your entire team with an instant offense increase over your opponent that can be exploited in dozens of different ways.
They can use that higher offense to win trades forcing you to back more often or use more potions. They can use it to push team fights and engagements in their favor to earn kills. Kills which I remind you not only provides your opponent with gold, but also denies you of gold while you are dead. They can use it to siege your towers faster, killing them quicker than before.
Tykune1 votesWrong. Giving more damage vs minions actually throws off their last hits. Which would be interesting to see, as that would be a real test of skill.
Llanite14 votes8% dmg is 4-7 AD. I don't see the issue here?
On live it's 190g, 5.3 AD w/ long sword or a large push toward BF.
Tuss2 votesThis is my logic behind it. Not gonna say it won't make a difference in high level play, but an extra 16 damage when you already have 200 isn't gonna make much of a difference to most I would think.
Junkο3 votesIt increases your AD and AP by 8% technically. That's actually pretty huge especially on champs that have multiple scalings(Kat ult for example, or Veigar ult)
Tuss1 votesI suppose it would make a bigger difference for AP than AD, since that's an extra 40 AP once you reach 500 outside the bonus, but that would still only happen a good deal into the game, after any snowballing might have happened.
serpensortia14 votesIt still only increases the scaling damage by 8%. It's a lot on burst champions, because it lets them kill people who have a little more resistance and health. On dps champs it just lets them kill a little faster, but not much. The 8% AD/AP really helps bursty snowball champs.
Llanite1 votesMost champs only get AD ratio from bonus AD (besides on-hit). So you get nothing from it without AD item.
For AP, 190g is ~11 AP w/ the 435g book, 11/0.08=150 AP. The new buff is actually weaker for the first 15 mins.
Talamare8 votesBecause Riot wants people dead
I swear that 8% should be one of the final buffs, like the 4th one
Onegarion8 votesYou have to look at it by the numbers. When most players get that first buff usually they have about what 100 ad/Ap. so by getting that first buff you are only getting about 8 actually damage increase. Its a buff that scales well and should be gotten early so you can feel the full effect. When you complete that IE you get an additional ~8 ad or that Deathcap you get ~9 AP. Its really not that much in the grand scheme of things. I could do a lot more with a couple of the other buffs than having and additional 8 ad as an ADC.
Junkο2 votesIt isn't an additional 8 damage. Katarina has 250% AP and 375% AD ratios on ult. That means her ult damage increases by 50% from ratios alone. That's actually pretty huge.
Tuss5 votesHow do you get a %50 increase out of an %8 bonus?
Junkο1 votes8% dmg increase, so her AD ratio(375%) is increased by 30% , her AP ratio(250%) is increased by 20%.
Then there is the fact that she can deal that to 3 different champions at a time. So it's actually increased by 150%
Llanite1 votesUh, it's the nature of scaling? Whether it's 10 AP, 190g or 8% AP, she'll always get 200% more out of it due to, you know, 'scaling'.
MarhsallLee676 votesKatarina scales off of 375% BONUS attack damage, meaning this does not scale off of the total attack damage she has, just whatever she's gotten from items, buffs, etc.
Alright, let's say that before the 8% AP/AD bonus from dragon, Katarina has 100 AP and 100 AD and has not purchased any items that grant her AD. That means her scaled damage will be 250 AP and 0 AD for her ultimate (since her ulti only scales off of bonus AD, not base), for a total of 250 bonus damage on top of her base damage.
Now, add the 8% AP/AD bonus from dragon. Katarina now has 108 AP and 108 AD. This changes her scaled damage to 270 AP and 30 AD (375% of the 8 bonus AD she would get from dragon) for her ultimate, for a combined total of 300 bonus damage on top of her base damage.
In other words, the difference in bonus damage on the ultimate between a Katarina with and a Katarina without the damage boosts from dragon is only 50 points, NOT 50%. If you take into the account of her ulti's base damage at level 6, it's barely an 8% increase in damage (400 base + 250 = 650 without dragon; 400 base + 300 = 700 with dragon; 700/650 = 1.0769, which means damage increases by roughly 7.69%).
tl;dr Your math is bad and you should feel bad.
Tuss1 votesTo his credit, I can see why he made that mistake. I suppose he forgot her ult only scaled with bonus AD.
serpensortia11 votes8% increased AP means 8% increased damage. Sure with 400 AP the damage is increased by 80, but that's on top of 1000 damage from the normal AP scaling, so it still only increases it by 8%.
Malix Farwin1 votesYou have to look at it by the numbers. When most players get that first buff usually they have about what 100 ad/Ap. so by getting that first buff you are only getting about 8 actually damage increase. Its a buff that scales well and should be gotten early so you can feel the full effect. When you complete that IE you get an additional ~8 ad or that Deathcap you get ~9 AP. Its really not that much in the grand scheme of things. I could do a lot more with a couple of the other buffs than having and additional 8 ad as an ADC.
Are you looking at the other buffs as well or just the 8% damage
Onegarion1 votesThis is looking at just the 8% from the first buff. You can include the final buff but with how often it really happens its not really a realistic way to balance the buff. If there is a huge influx of games that get to that 5th dragon buff then it would be a way to look at it and balance it.
To show a real balance of buffs you'd have to show how the increase of stats affects the game, how much in gold those are, and when these buffs realistically take place. I'm not able to run the numbers right now, but thats a true way of showing really how the buffs should lay out.
30718977_DEL8 votes8% at the time of first dragon might as well be no buff at all,it's like 6 AD.
Also,the damage buff is first so that enemy team has an easy chance to catch up damage wise.Just kill dragon once and you both have the most important part of the buff.If it was last then if you're behind you lose all hope of getting the buff
Apakakuta7 votesYou are all going crazy over something minuscule. Allow me to explain : Most teams don't get the first drag till around the 8-10 minute mark ( games I've been in). This is around level 6-8 depending on lane, now at this time most champs will have around 100 ad or about 120ap. Getting dragon buff then gives them literally 8 extra ad or 9.6 extra ap about the same as a dorans item. Which you were about able to buy off dragon before changes give or take a few minions. Early it means little to nothing, later is when it starts to matter. When you have more items, now that 8% gives what normally would be 200-300 ad now is 216 -324 ad or what was 400 -600ap is now 432- 648ap even in late game that only gives an extra long sword- pickaxe or amp tomb -blasting wand addition. So what are you whining about this 8% for?
Since this change I've won against teams with 2-6 drags to my teams 0-1 or maybe 2 drags it is so small a difference it would be around the same as if drag gave you gold. As a few have said if you lose lane or a teamfight from 5 extra ad/ap early then you are dumb. You can still beat a team with 5 drags by taking baron and out rotating or out team fighting the enemy. I actually feel it is less snowbally but easier to close games when you have a significant edge but it still allows for insane combacks.
Tuss3 votesThank you! Everyone's making a mountain out of a molehill with this bonus. I'm glad someone else agrees that it's not that big a deal.
DSRM Mobius1 votesI agree also, its not a big deal if anything the new dragon buffs adds more objective control to lol.
2pudge1cup4 votesThe order is a bit odd, I agree.
I still don't get the point of permanent buffs from the dragon. What was wrong with gold? I don't get riot's insistence on fixing what isn't broken and neglecting what is.
xGvPx3 votesAmen ^^
serpensortia14 votesHaving the damage buff first actually makes a lot of sense. That way if one team has 4 dragons and the other team only has 1, the team that's ahead doesn't have a large advantage in teamfights. If the enemy is controlling dragons and has a lot of them, the other team only has to steal 1 to get the damage back.
NeoScout3 votesthat plus the greater first blood gold, we are back to season 3 levels of snowballiness, pro-games are gonna be really boring
InvalidGuest3 votesIt was tweaked on the PBE a few days ago
Dragon's Might has been reduced to 6% from 8% +15% damage to towers and buildings is now granted at two stacks instead of four. +15% damage to minions and monsters is now granted at four stacks instead of two.
Talamare1 votesIt was tweaked on the PBE a few days ago
Dragon's Might has been reduced to 6% from 8% +15% damage to towers and buildings is now granted at two stacks instead of four. +15% damage to minions and monsters is now granted at four stacks instead of two.
They are screwing it up worse...
GG Beers3 votesHey guys, go listen to this http://tforce.trinityforcepodcast.com/?p=965 21:12- "First Dragon buff vs Towers" GC and two other devs explain exactly why these buffs are what they are and in what order. It makes perfect sense.
MattAkhavan3 votesI think it's the right choice to reward a team with 8% damage for taking a strategic advantage. No matter how you look at it, getting dragon is the result of taking a strategic advantage whether it is vision advantage, tp advantage, or taking a dragon when the bot lane recalls. The fact that people are losing the games when the first dragon is taken by the enemy team is probably because the enemy team is playing a better team game. I have personally won several games where we lost first dragon and when the enemy team had 5 dragons. 8% damage is not enough to lose the game, but it's enough to be able to push an advantage you already have.
If you move 8% damage to the 3rd aspect of dragon, the first two dragons really don't have the same weight on them. You are making strategic trades of maybe a tower or 2 and map control for 8% damage. instead you'll be trading a tower or 2 and map control of that area for 15% damage to minions? i wouldn't want to trade that.
Moe Moe Kyuun3 votesI'd be fine with the buffs if certain junglers couldn't solo it. Baron and dragon are meant to be something people can teamfight over for its awesome buff, slightly depressing to go over to ward dragon and notice the pantheon just walked away with it with no effort. It's like a jungle buff for the whole team.
They need to actually make dragon hard to kill where you need at LEAST 3 people. You shouldn't have to be afraid once your ward goes down that their jungler will just go snatch it up.
Junkο2 votesFor people saying 8% increased dmg does nothing early:
Katarina has 250% AP and 375% AD ratios on ult. That means her ult damage increases by 50% from ratios alone. That's actually pretty huge.
JustMyBassCannon3 votes250% of 8% is effectively +20% to the AP ratio, making it 270% instead of 250%. 375% of 8% is effectively +30% to the AD ratio, making it 405% instead of 375%.
The total damage increase is still +8% and the ratio increase can only be considered +50% if you have the same amount of AP and bonus AD (which will never realistically happen)
Marinaras Trench2 votesWith the dragon, my team always seems to get behind taking it early. Then we stall so they don't get turrets and keep taking dragons. Then when we get the 4th one. we group and win the game.
a cloth2 votesMy face when I solo drag at lvl 5 for free with fiddle.
Tykune2 votesWhatever happened to releasing something at its weakest, then gradually buffing it up?
DeathByWaffle1 votesNow, maybe I've just been unlucky or something so far, but I've yet to play a game where the team that secured the first dragon did not continue on to go 4-0 dragons.
The Mormonator1 votesWell, this is just my opinion, but before the new SR and jungle changes, 70% of teams that took first dragon ended up winning the game. I figure that hasn't changed too much in the new season and if dragon was taken, hopefully it was a team effort and would typically occur at the end of the laning phase. It's a risky objective without some map control such as towers down in bot or mid. Once again, just my opinion but it makes a little sense to me.
Yawnli1 votesThink about it for a couple of minutes. Use your brain please, the answer isn't that hard to guess
Aspynn1 votesI agree! I think maybe they should change the first buff to the bonus resistances (MAYBE) that way if the team that got the first dragon sacrificed their top lane to get it, maybe the toplaner could come back in lane by being more tanky!
TBH tho I think new dragon buffs are insanely op. 9/10 times the team with more dragons wins. It seems really snowball, which is what I thought riot was against.
Stars Shaper1 votesIt would have made more sense to have the minion/monster damage buff as first indeed.
Potato Doc1 votes9/10 the team that gets Dragon is the team with the winning bottom lane.
Look at pantheon, perfect example of how this is untrue, Regardless of who is winning bot lane, unless you have dragon warded and are totally prepared to go to dragon at the exact moment it spawns then he takes it without anyone knowing. There are many other junglers who can solo dragon pre 6 mins so pantheon isnt the only case
TheBostonTap1 votesRight, but it makes dragon even more critical in extremely close games.
LupusNox1 votesTo all the people saying that the 8% means nothing early, then why does the team that gets it first usually snowball consistently? It may only be 8 AD or 10 AP, but thats something, and the fact is that they get it immediately, they don't have to back and spend gold. So, if a team gets first drag and then the other team comes in to fight them, they are that much stronger than them right then, they don't even have to base and buy
Ecchi Gorira1 votesTo all the people saying that first team that take dragon wins. You don't usually just take dragon whenever you feel like it. It usually happens when bot or mid lane is winning. So it isn't dragon that is giving the advantage, it's the lanes themselves.
The buffs do help but are far from snowballie. If you convert the buffs into raw gold you will see it really isn't worth the risk. And the unconverted buffs are more of QoL buffs anyway.
Jacknife1 votesOk I've been seeing a few threads about how the first dragon buff is stupidly strong for the first benchmark, and while I don't disagree, there is a reason riot put it first. It's for the sake of fairness to both teams. Lets go with the idea of switching the third and first dragon buff for hypothetical reasons. Say in a game one team has been hoarding dragons over the other, and taken every one up to the third buff. They now have gained a massive power increase, while the other team is pretty much starved. Having the damage buff being third, it would take the other team three more dragons (which in near impossible to reach in game time) to reach that same level of power, items and lvl's aside. However, with it being the first buff like it is on live, they only need to get dragon one time to be on par, which is completely manageable at any point in the game. The reason it's first is because its the one buff that shouldn't decide the match.