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Unpopular Opinion: The problem with Jinx

GaryFreakinnnOak·10/25/2016, 4:33:35 PM·50 votes·5,381 views

Warning: long post

TLDR Jinx is too strong early for how strong she is in the late game.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on Jinx, currently she feels very overwhelming to me (G1 support) and every peice of advice on facing her has boiled down to "counterpick her".

Jinx currently has a 20% play rate and 54% win rate in games that end before 25 minutes. I feel Jinx does not trade off early power for late and it makes facing her a nightmares. She is supposed to be a hyper carry, but her win rate implies she doesn't have a power dip in the early mid game which is meant to be one of her balance levers.

Why is this occuring? For an immobile hyper carry she has a lot of tools that ease her early game and make it very difficult to punish her in the lane phase. Her rockets make replying on trades very simple and her traps make engaging on her or chasing her extremely difficult. She is also phenomenal at receiving ganks thanks to her ult, and any kill in bot lane leads to a full cleanup thanks to her passive. The traditional counters to Jinx such as Leona are heavily countered in the current bot lane meta and characters like Lucian don't have the strength anymore to punish her early.

Where is Jinx weak? Jinx is relatively immobile but her kit allows her to kite back very effectively and participate in fights from extreme range. Jinx for sure can be countered by assassins but that's true for any ADC other than Ezreal. She brings a lot of damage and utility for the safety she enjoys and currently isn't displaying exploitable enough weaknesses in soloque to make up for her reset mechanic.

Katarina, khazix, Darius, Tristana, Yi all general enjoy sub 50% win rates partially because their reset mechanics allow them to completely dominate in their best case scenarios. Jinx doesn't have to dominate to be successful, but she can take over the game. Her highs are much higher than her lows and it creates a problem in the variance of her performance. As long as Jinx farms she's capable of taking over the game, and she is one of the safest and easiest cs adcs in the game (not to mention having a global execute to activate her resets).

In short Jinx has an overloaded kit compared to other ADCs and her recent buffs have made her far too safe for how she can take over a game. The problem with Jinx is she isn't weak at any point of the game and needs her early game tuned down so she can't duel as efficiently until she hits some powerspikes.

What are your guys thoughts on this?

100 Comments

ModKnightsKemplar10/25/2016, 5:59:37 PM26 votes

Honestly, I think Riot needs to be careful balancing immobile adcs right now because of the assassin update.

Right now, assassins are largely pretty binary; in other words, if they get fed, they are going to kill your carry whether they are mobile or not. If they aren't fed, they aren't likely to kill the carry, whether the carry is mobile or not.

After the update, though, I think this has the potential to change drastically. There is always a lot of discussion on the forums about changes this big, but I think the assassin changes might change the way carries are picked in the current meta. If you have an immobile hypercarry like Jinx, you are going to need to actually protect her, if the reworks do their job right. And that's going to change her win rates, if it happens.

You are right that she is oppressive right now, but of all adcs (even other hypercarries), she has some of the worst tools for dealing with assassins. Once that update hits, it will be time to revisit this conversation.

TL;DR The reason Jinx is so strong might be a lack of counters to hypercarries in the current meta, i.e. assassins. If the preseason changes work, that will change and she won't be as bad.

Talisid10/25/2016, 6:06:04 PM13 votes

Here's my unpopular opinion - Jinx's late game is over rated. Her late game is good don't get me wrong, but she's an ADC all of them have good late game. Its not on the same level as real late game hyper carries like Vayne or KogMaw or even Tristana

Unless of course the enemy team decides to clump together, or you have a Diana on your team, but that's not guarantee. A smart enemy team won't give you the chance to hit more than one target.

IMO Jinx is more of an all-around. She's not weak early game, she's not overwhelmingly strong in the late game.

The Yetii Rider10/25/2016, 5:28:47 PM5 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/BiL98QHi-this-is-a-disgusting-excuse-for-an-olaf-riot-jinx-pbe-changes?show=flat&comment=00070005

Riot's official position is that Jinx is balanced at above a 50% win rate. If she's 50% or lower she's too weak.

Hemulen Magi10/26/2016, 1:21:02 AM4 votes

As a support main, I feel that Jinx,Ashe,Twitch, and Varus are the healthiest, fairest, and best-designed ADCs. I like playing with or against all 4 of these. In my honest opinion, Jinx is one of the four healthiest ADCs and should be seen as a model for the marksman role. She might be slightly overpowered compared to the dregs of the role, but she has neither the highest winrate nor the highest play rate in the role and she also generally feels balanced and healthy in practice. I would much rather see Vayne or Caitlyn get nerfed if anyone. I respect your opinion and the time you put into this thread even though I disagree with the premise that Jinx is problematic in the context of her competition in the marksmen role.

SSJTribe10/25/2016, 5:34:26 PM4 votes

I love playing Jinx, but I think I'd have to agree. I think if she would just lose some of her chompers "on the ground time", that would help tremendously. 5 seconds is kind of a long time, and she can control an area with them, something an adc shouldn't really do. I'd say nerf the duration to something like 1.5/2/3/4/5 seconds, or maybe 3 at all ranks. Either that or Give them a cast time so she can't just toss them while on the run.

Hochelaga10/25/2016, 4:37:53 PM4 votes

If you manage to catch her off guard, i'm pretty sure that she's the easiest ADC to get killed. On the other side, which ADC doesn't snowball ?

JacctheInsomniac10/26/2016, 12:58:43 AM4 votes

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invisiblecat110/25/2016, 10:43:06 PM3 votes

It is the range on the rockets why I feel she is too strong She can sit in the back with hurricane and infinity edge and just pop out rockets so often, and when they crit it does so much damage. If you dive her she presses E If you run at her she presses W

MunchCrunchLunch10/25/2016, 7:40:13 PM3 votes

Jinx passive is too strong. The ult buff made her get gold without doing much sorta like gp. It's hard to put her behind. Her Q passive gives more as than Jax and he's melee. And it requires less stacks. Jinx with bt is a drain tank. That's all am gonna say

Dataless10/26/2016, 4:42:03 AM3 votes

As a support main (P2), if I see a Jinx on the enemy team that signals me to play anything with hard CC. Problem solved. She is also weak to poke that outranges her own without a sustain-based support so a cheeky Velkoz can, when played safely, make her life hell.

LadyRenly10/25/2016, 9:02:09 PM3 votes

tbh id rather lane against a jinx than any other adc besides kog maw. lucian, mf and cait are pure cancer to face, ez and trist are ungankable

6Sfool10/25/2016, 9:06:23 PM3 votes

Hyper carry? She scales well even if she's behind. She could have 1 kill at 30 min and still get a penta. Every time I face a jinx I focus towers rather than objectives, because I don't want to stick around for her lategame. I think she's relatively balanced, but that aoe damage is a bit overtuned.

Fairyfleur10/25/2016, 4:41:30 PM3 votes

I also main support, and while I like her as a character she can definitely be very powerful in lane. It's hard to shut her down early on due to traps.

Pacattack2510/26/2016, 1:53:55 PM2 votes

Jinx might be considered a hyper carry - but most of her builds have her as early game -mid game... Don't get me wrong you can make her a traditional hyper carry but as you said 52% before 25 minutes - I often find that her power surge is after first couple of items then you aren't all that useful after the surge wears off...

The reason why this is happening is because most games DON'T last 30 minutes... or if they do the winner is usually predetermined by that point - hyper carries are in a conundrum where they are supposed to be late game - but if they build for the late game then they just get steamrolled over by the faster power curves... Jinx just happens to be able to build for either a faster curve or a traditional hyper carry curve.

Ben Sharpio10/25/2016, 5:08:31 PM2 votes

She synergies way too well with supports.

Asura Gonza10/25/2016, 9:31:31 PM2 votes

her kit is super loaded for no reason. Thats why she is so toxic

Dengeden10/25/2016, 10:13:03 PM2 votes

Jinx can get camped and I'm a broken record here, but there'll always be a top tier ADC or two that demolishes soloQ.

It Hertz When IP10/26/2016, 1:08:06 AM2 votes

I can tell you right now, Leona does fine against Jinx so long as she bait's Jinx's traps out. Because once those go on CD, Jinx may as well bend over and lube up.

If I had to pinpoint a problem with Jinx's kit, it's her passive. A massive, sudden stat boost just from an ASSIST allows her to survive skirmishes and team fights that any other ADC would not; hell, a well-timed summoner 7 can trigger her passive before she's even entered the fight, which is massively problematic. Any nerf effort IMO should start by redefining her passive to have a similar trigger to Katarina's: "damages an enemy champion within 3 seconds of their death". Only, y'know, with something about structures thrown in there.

KorZod10/26/2016, 1:51:21 AM2 votes

I agree with the vast majority of this, but I think we need to be fair in that this is currently a very good meta for Jinx as well. Regardless, she has far too much strength earlier (landing an Zap! at level 3 if your support has good all-in can lead to a kill very easily), and is completely absurd late without needing to be fed (assists giving full benefit of her passive, get Runaans + Rockets and any teamfight will give you your stacks).

kirbyzama10/26/2016, 2:29:09 AM2 votes

I don't think she is to strong early. Virtually any strong lane combo will beat her early the problem is that keeping jinx down is a team effort and if that gives out for 1 fight 1 bad gank or just letting her get first turret blood its like the shutdown didn't happen. I've heard her describe as the adc version of kat not just for the reset but the dependence on team effort to consistently prevent her from fighting in a favorable way. From personal experience getting camped dived and tped on as jinx is awful and if its consistently executed she will be worthless till 5 items. But the thing is when in lower play when lee comes to dive he'll step on the traps and get killed by the turret jinx gets excited. The top tped with low health jinx gets excited. Your squishy support got pulled jinx gets excited and it all goes for naught. There is a reason why most pros don't play her even in just ranked. Good players can exploit jinx's weaknesses and she can do little about it by herself while her competitors, the likes of ez or jhin, are more self-sufficient.

Also I hate the idea of a champ must be strong or weak at any point of a game. Every champ should do something at any stage. Lee Sin is notoriously bad late game but he can win a game so easily with a good kick, either picking a carry or knocking up a whole team.

Troll for Trump10/26/2016, 2:48:50 AM2 votes

TLDR Jinx is too strong early for how strong she is in the late game.

YeahYasuo SoundsVayne (top)Riven right.

Nipsahoy10/26/2016, 5:10:55 AM2 votes

I think she's fine for the most part. I don't think you need to play counterpicks to beat Jinx either. Obviously if she's 5-0 10 minutes into the game she's going to snowball pretty decently but she's still an immobile easily killed ADC at the end of the day so she isn't unbeatable or much harder to kill like your Ezreals/Vaynes/Lucians who can dodge skillshots and kite around easily. Her main strength is her fast attack speed which needs to stack up and her combined AoE dmg from rockets.

I mean you can't destroy a late game champ by giving them 0 early game which is what some people seem to think otherwise they'd never have a chance to get to late game. I feel Jinx lane phase is decent but not great. It can be strong if she's paired with someone that can initiate and allow her to land her traps, but she shouldn't be winning versus early game champs like Lucian or Cait who have much better lane dominance. I think she has a high pickrate because she's fun to play and excels in the late game as well and her early game is tolerable.

I've played many games as Jinx where if you get shutdown early by TPs/tower dives/ganks she isn't that strong until you farm up again. She's got no mobility and no real utility to speak of outside of traps which are easy to avoid due to the arming time and the laser slow which is one of the easiest skillshots in the game to dodge so she should have a decent early game. not a oppressive early game like some champs but a solid one.

TwinkiePro10/26/2016, 5:59:05 AM1 votes

Reminds me when everyone was tired of vayne and the same argument kept coming up. Eventually they nerfed her by 3 AD. Worked well for some reason, maybe we can expect the same of jinx.