Most of the aggravation in League is due to lack of agency

Rebonack·12/18/2017, 5:41:02 PM·64 votes·4,116 views

When are you most frustrated playing League? Probably when you do really great in your lane position, but two or three of the other positions feed like they trying to put a stop to world hunger. Or maybe when your team is ahead, but then one of your team members makes a questionable choice, gets caught out, and you lose important objectives as a result. We've all been 'that guy'. And we've all had to suffer through having 'that guy' on our team. League is a team game, of course, but a team game where poor play on the part of even one player can quickly lead to disaster. The snowbally nature of League doesn't help all that much, either.

This is frustrating, of course, because you're going to feel like you had a lack of agency in deciding the course of the game.

I strongly suspect this is where the generally toxic attitude in League arises from. People get mad, not just because they're losing, but because they're losing and they feel hopeless. It becomes easy to scapegoat the player who did something stupid and cost you the game. It becomes VERY easy to overlook your own contributions to that loss when someone else keeps getting caught in the enemy Jungle with no vision coverage. One lane feeds and tempers flare because after all, that's all on them. It's out of your control how shitty they're doing in lane. It's also out of your control to prevent them from getting caught out, barring getting killed yourself trying to rescue them.

Here's a bit of insight from Dominionland.

Ragers, flamers, and the like were nearly non-existent in Dominion. Partly due to the pacing of the game, I suspect. No one had time to rage in allchat since there were always objectives to take. But more importantly, that lack of agency never really reared its head there. Bottom lane had constant interaction. There was always something you could do top. Snowballing was all but nonexistent, so the game was never over until you were staring at the defeat screen. One bad play rarely decided victory or defeat. If you wanted to win, you had to consistently out-play the enemy team. With more hopeful matches you got more hopeful players. In my years of playing Dominion, I can count the number of times I saw a team surrender on one hand because there was nearly always a chance to turn things around.

But Rift isn't like that.

The team that knocks down the first tower wins the majority of games. Teams that get first blood AND first tower are all but fated to win. There's no hope there. It feels out of your control. And when people feel hopeless, they lash out.

I don't know how to fix this. I don't have any suggestions to make it better. But if ever Riot feels like lowering the venom level of League a bit, the place to begin is to find a way to make Summoner's Rift a team game right from the start rather than a game where you happen to be on a team.

92 Comments

Ralanr12/18/2017, 5:46:26 PM27 votes

Yes, especially as a top laner (I feel this is where a lot of top lane salt comes from). People generally don’t like relying on strangers after all.

HalcyonDweller12/18/2017, 7:19:28 PM10 votes

I concur with the sentiment of this post. Additionally it was well reasoned and non-combative. Props. 10/10 would upvote again.

ModWulf Helhammer12/18/2017, 7:06:25 PM10 votes

make Summoner's Rift a team game right from the start rather than a game where you happen to be on a team.

It is currently a team game. In a team, a single mistake from a person can cost the entire group. Just think back to group assignments in school, where if one person didn't do their work, you either have to all pick up the slack, making the assignment significantly harder, or you fail. That's what League is.

The problem is is that most people still want to be playing the game from season 4 where solo-carry was a thing, and they try to pull of the miracle play thinking they can take over the entire game.

Now don't get me wrong, solo-carrying does still sometimes happen (particularly in times like right now, where everything is still messed up from pre-season), but it isn't nearly as much as it was before.

In a team game, your personal agency is much smaller. You aren't supposed to be the army, you are supposed to be a soldier, and it's when you work with the other soldiers, that you become the force that wins

Teridax6812/18/2017, 8:55:12 PM9 votes

I agree with this, and I think bringing up Dominion is particularly relevant in the current snowbally state of the game. As an independent, secondary, half-finished game mode, Dominion had its problems, but I think it was particularly brilliant in that it allowed teams to win games quickly without having to rely on snowballing. Getting a lead meant you made tangible progress, because you were reducing the enemy team's nexus points and thus bringing the match to an inevitable close, but it also never prevented the opposing team from coming back and advancing themselves. No matter how far ahead the enemy team was, there was always a reasonable chance for the opposing team to win, provided they played well enough.

By contrast, Summoner's Rift in its current state feels much like the opposite: though the pacing changes since Preseason 6 have knocked a few minutes off of average play time, games still last for a while, and often they feel like they last for much longer than they should. Additionally, leads are expressed through personal power, meaning that a team can get so far ahead that they will auto-win any fight, but may or may not translate that lead efficiently into pushing towards the enemy nexus. Effectively, this denies agency to the enemy team, who gets shut down at any comeback attempt they make, due to the raw statistical power of the enemy champions, but this also removes the guarantee of a lead translating fully into the game ending, forcing the losing team to wait until their opponents choose to end. This is why I am not fan of the current method of snowballing in League, and why I dislike snowballing translating into personal power increases, rather than objective progression, as a general rule.

Provengreil12/19/2017, 1:40:53 AM7 votes

removing that first tower gold bonus would be a nice first step towards toning down the tower snowball potential.

redniwediS12/18/2017, 5:46:25 PM6 votes

A spot on post if I've ever seen one myself. I know this is where I get the majority of my frustration (the rest coming from missing CS that I definitely know I could have gotten if I wasn't playing like an idiot).

Sire Hippington12/18/2017, 10:42:38 PM6 votes

The easiest solution to fix that for some players: Bring back dominion! You just reminded me on why i ignore all those missions to stay tur on the dominion icon...

for Summoners, i felt less issues with that in eariler seasons, as more roles felt like they can carrie if given a lead, while now it feels like a fed bot wins no matter how fed the opposite top or mid are. Jungle also didn't have as much early impact as it has now. Right now, atleast on top, i feel like winning the lane is mostly done by junglers. If i see an advantage and want to capitalize on it, the opposing jungler instantly shows me how early impact looks like. I just can't apply any preasure unless i see the opposing jungler on the other side of the map. At the same time, if i have preasure up and my jungler is around, it's disturbing how easy you can dive someone. But the biggest issue is see for that is damage(and CC) -creep aswell as the vision. With how much damage and in case of tanks CC there is, even small mistakes get punished really hard, and later on a single catch can end the game as obective melt in seconds and a baroned buffed 5vs4 can easily rip the base appart. The higher deathtimers don't hel here either. Also, the map beeing pretty dark since S6 makes it hard to not get cought every now and then if you ever loose mapcontroll. All you can do is surrender your jungle and loose out in rotations or you wander into the dark. At the same time, vision now is extra snowbally thx to zombie wards and ghostporos giveing extra vision for the team in controll, that instantly gets cleared once you loose controll. Over the last few years, right has broght Summoners rift into a really bad spot where massive systematic cahnges would be needed, but instead of fixing any of those issues, they just seem to make them worse every season...and i wouldn't give a damn about it if dominion would still exist.

P.S. The worst loss of agency is when you have a rough lane but the rest of your team gets fed and just stomps through and ends the game way befor you ever could catch up. You win the game without even getting a proper chance to contribute to it and it feels like nothing you did mattered in the end...It might sound strange to complain about winning, but i prefer haveing a solid permormance my self or bounceing back from a bad start and still loosing the game over haveing a bad start and watching the rest of my team trample the opponents 4vs5.

Whisper8712/18/2017, 11:28:24 PM6 votes

I first want to say that I totally agree with pretty much everything you are saying. I agree that the game is a touch too snowball, and that the window for certain roles to have agency need to be adjusted.

Let me give you a scenario that happens often and I think illustrates our point perfectly. I play ADC, I go 3-0-1 in lane and my support goes 1-0-3. At the start of the game my Lee Sin jungle invaded their Xin jungle and stole his second buff, burned his flash, and sent him back to base at lvl 2. Lee Sin now thinks he is God and keeps invading even when our mid is pushed in and with limited vision, as a result Lee's amazing start has now resulted in Xin being 1-0-2 and their mid being 2-0-1. You know who is great at killing adc's? Xin and mid laners. Despite the fact that my stats are individually better than either of their players with kills, despite the fact we have 4 kills including first blood and they have 3, we are on the back foot because Xin can dive me at will and mid can blast me super hard so I can't abuse the advantage I've created and snowball further. This is further exasperated by the fact that it's far easier for mid and jungle to gank bot than for adc and support to gank mid or jungle successfully.

Again I think some adjustment has to be made, but here is some insight into why the throw has to be stronger than the carry. I am a big fan of Esports in general, so while I pretty much play LOL exclusively, I watch all competitive gaming including Dota 2. Dota 2 is the closest thing out there to LOL right now, and there is a reason why it is less popular. Casual players typically want to end games quickly and they want to kill stuff way more than playing the map or waiting for timings. In Dota a support feeding their face off is not that impactful and sometimes is actually good (they call it tanking the gank); the support will know that the enemy team is looking to make a play soon, so they start roaming around and playing super ballsy in neutral areas and the jungle like "I'm way overextended and yeah you would rather gank my carry down there in lane but the kill on me is so easy and by the way if you don't kill me I'm gonna take your rune and kill one of the only 3 wards you have up on the map". They also have certain carries who can just carry the game so that like if 4 players are slowly losing the game and losing skirmishes, your 1 player farming that whole time can realistically carry the game. The game ha a rubberband effect more than a snowball. The games last longer because it's truly not over until the fat lady sings, and I've seen multiple games where a team has mega creeps pushing in from all 3 lanes and the opponent still has 2/3 tier 2 towers up, yet somehow they pull out a comeback. Something like that would be like legendary status in LOL, like the Xpeke backdoor, in Dota it happens often enough that a lot of them aren't really talked about much after the week it happens.

Finally making my point: LOL is largely successful because it is more friendly towards casual players than something like Dota is, but feels more involved and more competitive than something like HOTS. This is why Riot typically trends more towards buffing underpowered things up to par with OP stuff than just nerfing the OP back into line with everything else. Once a player has had the chance to feel that power in their hands, they will cry like a little 2 year old if you remove some of that agency you talked about. Casual players get bored with long games, they get frustrated more easily (meaning if they lose a fight after winning several early they will cry), and they want to fight a lot, they also want to feel like the hero. If you tell people, "Hey you just constantly fighting and roaming for kills is not gonna win you the game most of the time, snowballing through your lane and split pushing isn't gonna be much better", it will significantly impact the involvement of casual players.

Riot does their best to balance around both team oriented play and "yolo q" playstyle, but the attitude that the came can and should be mostly decided in the first 20 minutes will continue to edge out because it's easier to do so in anything but arranged 5's and because it's less frustrating to casuals. If a mid tier casual player continually fights in lane and ends up 1-3 and down 30 cs with lost tower they are the one spamming surrender and ready to give up, they may lash out saying they didn't get help, but internally they are mostly like "yeah I got outplayed, I lose, let's go next". They mentally minimize the game to be mostly about them as an individual, therefore don't change their style to give their team a chance to carry them when they get behind early. It's MUCH harder for them to swallow the idea of a macro or team focused outplay. They are like, "wtf I was 11-0, picking up a kill every minute and a half, eating their carries, then all a sudden I can't burst the ADC through Janna shield anymore and the ADC who is 1-6 turned around and melted me even though I just killed him 4 times in a row. Janna is broken and this game is stupid". They will ignore the fact that while they were chasing kills across the map, their enemy mid laner acquired a 20 cs lead, they will ignore that despite them killing mid and bot repeatedly, they gave little attention to top side and so their blue buff has been stolen twice so the two junglers are actually quite even in experience, and even though they are ahead 5 tower kills to 3 the enemy adc and Janna were there for all 3 tower kills, and so on and so on with minor things the enemy team has been doing well to stay in the game. They don't understand things like that 1 level is worth nearly 1k gold in stats, so they should have pushed objectives when they first surged ahead instead of chasing kills and wandering in enemy jungle hoping to stumble across someone.

POINT: It's easier for a casual or immature player to swallow a mechanical outplay, but they hate, I meant HATE...losing because they got outdrafted or because the other players are students of the game. A busy parent might give a 3 year old a treat or let them play with their phone to shut them up for a bit, yolo q players are the 3 year old and Riot is the parent and the treat is the snowball win. I agree that things have trended a little too far in that direction, but LOL is primarily casual players so the game will always continue to favor Yolo Q players over students of the game, at least until the influx of new players slows down and LOL becomes viewed more like an Esport and less like a casual video game. I mean think about it, much less toxicity and trolling when you play a pickup game of ball down at the park than in the average LOL match. When we can get the average LOL player to take their solo q games as seriously as someone playing a game of half court down at the park (which is really not all that serious), then maybe Riot can move away from this trend.

Naono12/18/2017, 9:21:52 PM5 votes

Hmm.. Ppl don't always get caught out. Tower dive can happen at early levels. Even I have pulled it off. So even if you play safe and try to farm under turret you can still get crapped on.

I find ppl flame for their own mistakes, they do not see how they are at fault and blame someone else believeing they could have been saved, it could have been possible or not, because it might seem that way from their perspective doesn't mean it seems that way from the other.

I find ppl flame for other reasons that have nothing to do ingame. Some ppl are too easily irritated.

I believe toxicity stems from the person them self rather than what happens ingame. I have never been toxic. No matter how frustrated the situation is. If someone made a bad choice, to me it happens. If they make multiple bad choices in one game, to me it happens. Has you stated these things are out of our control. The question to asked do these ppl have control or such a good life that when something bad happens ingame the answer is always to rage or they have so much bad things happening in life that they need to control what happens ingame as it's there escape.

TL;DR Shit happens ingame and in life. Being toxic is never the answer, it solves nothing.

Theorex12/18/2017, 9:25:34 PM4 votes

Things that frustrate me.

Mobility gets so much help from defensive itemization. Look at QSS and Zhonya's on ADC and APC with dashes. They can almost instantly get out of any situation. But they give up a skill slot for that dash. Okay. Yeah. Name a dash skill that doesn't do damage, damage mitigation, or give some form of stupidly strong engage.

Movespeed buffs are the only ones that don't involve interactions with other people most of the time. But even then they aren't that great compared to dashes.

Item inequality. Get arid of Zhonya's and give us a passive shield item that we don't even have to click to use. Then also give us a active that cleanses CC off of us. That is a ton better than invuln. It would also remove the frustration of someone using zhonya's and denying someone else a kill.

That won't happen because QSS is such a strong item for mages, that if they get it with damage. Certain mages become unstoppable forces. Almost as unstoppable as Twitch or Tristana. :)

A shield I don't have to think about!? Yay! I don't have to micro my HP bar anymore! Almost like Lifestealers.

The game is currently too imbalanced between the two carry roles.

ADC's and APC should both be about the same to each other. But they aren't because ADC's get more stats from the support. This isn't even me doing the math because THE AD ratios, how much damage each ADC can do in a span of 5 seconds. At 1 item, 2 items, 3 items, 4 items, 5 items, 6 items.

I think I found a new thing i want to do now. Is compare damage of EVERY single mid laner and ADC to see which group has more damage. Then I will put them against targets with Zhonya's and Ninja vs Merk Scim and Maw.

Hibeki12/18/2017, 7:00:44 PM4 votes

The system is designed to do this. You can win a certain amount of games without it intentionally pairing you with people its flagged to be 'bad'

Its not confirmation bias, because we have hundreds of hundreds of people who all experience this.

Unless you are clearly at an advantage (diamond player boosting a bronze account) as a super carry you cant lose with, you will ALWAYS be stuck at a 50% winrate almost.

Its no coincidence that practically anyone who goes on a winstreak is followed by a loss streak of potato teammates. I absolutely refuse to believe these hundreds of thousands of cases are all 'coincidental'

The system is designed to keep you at a 50% wr, just end of story.

The Öutcast12/19/2017, 6:23:27 AM4 votes

This post is exactly why I feel that ranked needs to be revamped. I'm a support main, and I'm meant to build utility and do all the annoying things to keep my team alive, and if I do an exceptional job at that, I should be rewarded, and not punished, if my team takes a loss. There are other games where if you do well (even if you lose), you still climb in ranking, so I can't see why that can't be adopted here. I feel like it would fix a lot of issues and encourage people to actually try playing their best instead of relying on wins

i cant move wtf12/18/2017, 7:15:04 PM4 votes

I really disagree with this. I've played many games and in every single one there are sore losers and flaming. People rage IN CHESS - a 1v1 game with 0 RNG. The current undisputed best player, Magnus Carlson, still has bursts of rage. This isn't something you can escape or design out because it's a problem with people, not games. A sincere approach to reducing toxicity in League would be to start a charity for psychological counseling of its playerbase.

Yaskamasandwich12/19/2017, 5:41:16 AM3 votes

To TOP it off with top lane, there is another lack of agency with it because the lane relies entirely on counter picking. Since top lane champions have lost all late game effectiveness then they all power spike at the same time at early game. So now top lane is based fully off counter picking. They picked a Fiora? I'll pick a Pantheon and destroy her. I've picked a Nasus, oh they picked Teemo, I get destroyed.

Counter picking is good but when it is the primary main way, then it removes the agency from one player. Better to not gank a counter picked lane because the opponent may just get a double kill. The ally can't help, he is 100 cs behind because if he tries to farm, or even play, he gets killed. Old counter picking was okay since lane bullies usually fall off late game but counter picked a lot of champions and had a chance to beat their counters with applicable game knowledge. It was okay though since the lane bully drops off hard. Now a days only Pantheon seems to drop hard.

The opposite is also happening where late gameish champions like Ornn and Maokai are destroying certain match ups early game because they counter those champions. Then those champions who got countered by late game champions become absolutely useless. Before when a late game champion countered another champ, it was mainly that way because the late game champ can farm, not because the champ could kill the opposing champ.

Blue Moon Wolf12/19/2017, 11:54:03 PM3 votes

Sigh

I wanted to vote yes, but you HAD to give me the Walrus option...

[zombie-nunu-tears]

SpecterVonBaren12/19/2017, 2:36:42 AM2 votes

Here's a bit of insight from Dominionland.

Ragers, flamers, and the like were nearly non-existent in Dominion. Partly due to the pacing of the game,

I think that's probably more due to there being very few (Relative to SR) people that played Dominion. The smaller a community is the less tense things are because there's less people that are inherently toxic and less of a feeling of needing to distinguish yourself from everyone else by doing well.

Northmund12/19/2017, 8:27:23 AM2 votes

I have mentioned this long time ago, how less stressful was dominion. In my opinion what should have been removed was SR, even tho dominion was less popular, it was way more fun.SR is more competing, for those whith competetive spirit.

Carnicore12/18/2017, 11:24:16 PM1 votes

There's a limit to how much agency you can have in a 5v5 game. If you could carry games all by yourself, it would mean that your teammates' actions don't matter.