Luden's costs more and is less stat efficient than Duskblade and Shiv, yet deals less damage

Seolhyunari·7/25/2017, 3:39:38 PM·241 votes·6,596 views

Luden's deals 100 damage with a negligible AP scaling, while Duskblade and Shiv do up to 360-400 damage. How is this fair when Luden's costs more and is less gold efficient? I guess you could argue that it is magic damage, but so is Shiv and Duskblade users will usually have a ton of flat penetration anyway.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I don't think Luden's needs to be buffed (significantly atleast), I think Duskblade and Shiv are way too strong.

222 Comments

xxxMadLionxxx7/25/2017, 4:09:06 PM78 votes

Upvoted. Make AP great again

AHScoven7/25/2017, 5:23:19 PM40 votes

Well they ruined Luden's echo as they ruined every ap item by nerfing them to the ground (except for item 3165 I guess). They started in season 5 with nerfs and now we're here in season 7 with only 4 ap champions being actually avaible in mid lane. But you know what? Let's keep buffing ad items because AD champs deserve better itemization, scalings and burst. No wonder why almost everyone complains about ADCs and AD bruisers/assassins right now.

Thefrostyviking7/25/2017, 4:46:44 PM29 votes

Thing is, i think, is that AP generally has more burst than AD.

Thus Luden is just meant as a small enhancer while duskblade is a core part.

And Duskblade has the sight condition, something luden doesn't.

Imagine if someone like a Syndra or katarina had a unconditional AP duskblade (which is essentially what a buffed luden would be) .

Lauchmelder7/25/2017, 4:05:30 PM29 votes

Same applies to Seekers and Hexdrinker btw.

Sure, a fully stacked Seekers is more gold efficient than Hexdrinker without the passive shield, but you can't just compare an item's gold efficiency by including the passive on one but not the other (like a lot of people on the boards tend to do).

When comparing the few items AP and AD have an equivalent of you can see how the AD alternatives are stronger/more gold efficient.

softest boy7/25/2017, 7:24:29 PM22 votes

AP itemization is complete shit, and has been for a while now. They have consistently shaved off ability power from items without any sense of compensation in individual mage scaling, and actually ended up making mage itemization more linear than it previously has been. There's really only two optimal build paths for mages as a whole, even though Riot is praising the adherent diversity the mid-season mage update brought - which I'll just say is a load of bullshit. In previous seasons, you could expect to build up to 800 ability power on an average game, yet now I'm lucky if I hit 550.

I'm not saying that the mage class is in a bad spot, but the itemization really pushes diversity out the window. I don't see it changing anytime soon though, because AD itemization has been and will always be more favored by the balance team.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Killed Inaction7/25/2017, 5:22:14 PM16 votes

Someone else mentioned that a large part of the reason AP items are less stat efficient is because item 3089 exists. Honestly, if the Deathcap's passive was reduced to 25% and all other AP items (and Deathcap's cost) were modified accordingly, I feel like AP items would be much more balanced. As it stands, they must all be made with the assumption that they'll be given an extra 35% AP due to the Deathcap, meaning with full items the Deathcap is very gold efficient. If the items were rebalanced around a nerfed Deathcap passive and reduced cost, I feel like we could start seeing some positive changes to AP items in general.

Kloqdq7/25/2017, 4:49:26 PM12 votes

How about we just make AP items great again.

Mcsquzzy7/25/2017, 5:30:48 PM11 votes

lets not forget duskblade only needs to have enemy lose sight of them for 1 second to use again where as ludens has to charge

Pierce The Veal7/25/2017, 4:55:09 PM11 votes

Ludens is also one of the best movement speed items in the game, but I do agree that I would like buffs to the item. At least in passive AP scaling.

Blåbæret7/25/2017, 8:26:13 PM7 votes

They've nerfed AP to shit so ya. Stopped caring. At this point it's obvious they want AD dominance.

Sohleks7/26/2017, 2:27:12 AM7 votes

Not saying mages are weak but mage itemization choices are pretty much a joke right now. It over encourages defense/cdr then past that point the ever continuous teamplay approved tank meta forces you to get void staff; it's not like you actually make big decisions or risks even with mage itemization. Options that spec into extra damage or burst or skimp cdr are pretty trashy. Except revolver is a pretty strong component.

Most games you won't even get to complete deathcap with its price because "makes sense to build it late." Yeah makes sense that there's no thinking and zero risk taking involved. That's like saying IE only makes sense to build after two phantom dancers if it had no ad for example. Building your mage is a boring checklist with morellos being first most of the time and deathcap near the end with void in the middle with some overpowered health/mr item 2nd.

zippyHD7/26/2017, 8:14:40 PM6 votes

Replace Luden's Echo with Deathfire Grasp! Who is with me!? haha :D

Karfuss7/25/2017, 6:29:43 PM6 votes

AP itemisation really is terrible, isn't it.

Barely any AP item is gold efficient any more, except perhaps Zhonya, Seraphs and Rabadon. And boy does Rabadon feel terrible to actually build.

It's literally why every mid laner was, and is, building Gunblade. Even Hybrid items are better.

hi hi its zy zy7/25/2017, 7:40:34 PM6 votes

riot hates mages and it's a known fact

DunkinNoobs7/25/2017, 4:49:30 PM5 votes

Are we just ignoring the part where Ludens gives 10% MS? That's a pretty big part of the power budget of the item.

Neamean7/25/2017, 6:41:10 PM5 votes

You see it is because item 3147 and item 3087 are ad item meaning that they would have more dps than an ap champion so it is only right to give more burst too.

DarkVladimr7/26/2017, 5:50:53 PM4 votes

We need complete mage item rework. Rabadons-reduced cost by at least 100g, and better build path. NLR- should be now made from 2 Amplifying tomes plus recipe cost. Cost unchanged. Zhonya- Either reworked for battle mages only or turned into a pure artilery mage item. / Or turned into both cost and slot efficient item like pre s5 I think. More item diversity. Return spellvamp.

DeathBurst7/25/2017, 3:47:09 PM3 votes

For the comparison with Statik: Luden deals 110 as soon as you get it, even if you have no other AP at all. You need to be at least Lvl11 for Statik to deal more than that without a Crit, and you won't Crit reliably before Lvl11 either.

For Duskblade: it's hard to compare. You can probably proc Luden 2 or 3 times in a single fight. You won't be able to that with Duskblade unless you're Khazix.

ModAcademy Kayn7/25/2017, 6:51:41 PM2 votes

AD assassins also also have to get within Melee range to utilize the passive, have to be out of sight, and don't have the ability to proc it from X range away.

Gone by Night7/25/2017, 5:17:42 PM2 votes

Because it's an AP item and AP champions have way better scaling and usually better base damage as well? Not to mention with AP build, you usually hit 600-700 AP, You NEVER hit such amounts of AD (maybe some exceptional "troll" builds).

AmazoX7/25/2017, 5:16:26 PM1 votes

Syndra & Orianna are already so strong, You want AP buffed?

Handin Out Naps7/25/2017, 8:21:40 PM1 votes

Think about the range you have to be in to proc Duskblade compared to Ludens. I'm talking about melee champs btw.