Meaningful Counterplay

PonderousSealion·12/31/2014, 6:32:15 PM·25 votes·2,414 views

So Riot has been telling us recently that they're all about creating meaningful counterplay, and while I think they've done a mostly alright job on this front there are things that are being done that just don't fit that philosophy, whether it's due to random stats being tacked on to them or just a lack of real counterplay options in their gameplay patterns.

Yasuo I think this guy qualifies as one of the top dogs in the random stats department. Doubled crit chance and a crapload of arpen tacked onto his ultimate just make him a pain to deal with with no real drawbacks for him. However, I find his gameplay patterns to be mostly alright. His ease of farming in lane due to his manaless-ness can be a bit problematic but I think overall his big problems are that bonus arpen and crit chance, making itemizing vs him incredibly difficult while not adding any meaningful counterplay elements.

Syndra Veigar Annie Lissandra All seem to suffer from the gameplay pattern of "either they have banshee's or QSS and they live or they don't and they die". The whole burst mage concept SHOULD exist, and can exist beautifully in champions such as Lux Xerath (both champions have a dodgeable skillshot that sets up the rest of their kits to do damage, which is a HEALTHY GAMEPLAY ELEMENT imo), but tacking on a, for all intents and purposes unavoidable, stun just makes it feel like there's only one thing you can do to survive or nothing at all. Veigar especially would become a huge problem and be immediately nerfed if everyone realized how strong he is. These champions do have drawbacks in their relative immobility and mana pools but at the same time are played in such a way that they're either overbearing or worthless- not really fun for anybody.

Akali Warwick Both have random heals tacked onto their kits. Both have entirely point and click gameplay patterns. Both are unhealthy in their current states. Nuff said.

Gnar Another ball of stats champion with HUGE utility in his kit. Hell, his transformation in and of itself is an unhealthy gameplay mechanic. For the 15 seconds or whatever that he's transformed almost nobody can go toe to toe with him, especially in laning, thereby reducing any chance of fighting back against him in that state. Then he becomes a ranged champion with a great escape! There's just no winning vs this guy.

LeeSin While I love Lee Sin dearly, he IS rather problematic. He shares this problem with Lucian in that both of them give everything you could want in a jungler or marksman, respectively. Their kits are just too well rounded. Not to mention LeeSin also has a bunch of random ass stats just popped into his kit willy nilly. Spellvamp, Lifesteal, Bonus AS, incredibly high base ad and some of the best utility in the game mean something has to be done about LeeSin

I hope Riot gets around to addressing some of these champions at some point or another. Whether they get random stat bonuses that are poor gameplay elements on their own or just have their own play patterns that don't make for interesting champion interactions, the key points I addressed here are big problems with the way League of Legends is being played.

34 Comments

Abyssphere12/31/2014, 7:02:39 PM15 votes

Riot only wants older champions to have counterplay. Their newer releases seem free to ignore any and all design principles they claim to hold.

SleepyLionCub1/1/2015, 4:33:10 AM7 votes

When complaining about no good counterplay why does nobody mention Vayne?

inb4waifuwave.

but seriously she bursts you to the ground with just her autoattacks, her huge attack speed autos get even more damage with her W, and then even more with her roll. Then she can even knock you back with a lock on ability, and if you hit a wall you are stunned for a whole 1.5 seconds. Then her ult makes her stupidly fast, and gives her even MORE damage, and a roll that makes her invisible for a second meaning any attempt to fight her while her ult is up is gone because she just lolrolls her way back to health with lifesteal.

She does damage, with damage added, with a little damage sprinkled on top and then slathered in damage. You know how else does this? Katarina, and its fine on her. Wanna know why? Katarina cant fucking turn invisible, and katarina cant stun+knock you back, and katarina definetly cant deal %hp damage.

kirbyzama1/1/2015, 3:28:55 AM5 votes

What is annoying about lucian is that his passive more powerful then comparable champions passives like Riven while still being ranged.

As for yasuo I always play Swain into him. Swain just kinda steam rolls melee champs and because he has dot dmg it hits after the shield is down. Oh and bird Laser goes through wind wall.

Syndra has problems mostly in her lane bullying. Seriously Cass got rework for lane bullying but Syndra hits like a truck and her stun is so long ranged.

Do I think these champs are OP? Not really. I get your point about meaningful counter play and riot feels item counter play like qss isn't meaningful but I still think some champs need to be THE reliable champs. I would prefer a Syndra with her instant kill button then a higher skill cap champ like ahri simply for the fact she just kinda does what she does. Sometimes targeted abilities with low counter play ARE healthy. That way champs with insane mobility don't utterly break the game.

Just look at that swain into yas match up. Sure lux would lose to yas because he dodges her abilities but swain has targets and toggles. You can't "out play" that. Still mobile champs have the advantage in team fights in that they can actually make it to teamfights, lol.

Finally as for the ball of stats known as gnar. You just kind have to beat him over the head with other balls of stats like irelia or riven but that just doesn't feel right does it? Lucky though stats are just numbers that are easily changed unlike mechanics.

Anisoptera1/1/2015, 12:43:20 PM4 votes

I don't think Riot have made a champion with meaningful counter play since before Yasuo. Lee Sin is only broken when people with a brain play him, as mostly sheep play Free Win and fail.

ImHerVoice12/31/2014, 10:03:30 PM3 votes

i bet you supported the gutting off ww's kit because of sabre. Not because WW. Fiddle has high sustain where are his nerfs? Oh right. He's balanced too. Herp derp.

Angry Monster1/1/2015, 3:09:44 AM3 votes

I disagree on liss and annie being problems. the other 2 i don't play/ versus enough to say issue or not.

Liss has to get right into the action to get her CC off. Her range is pretty short minus 1 passing throw enemies to get range, but she skilled shot that. Liss is a hard CC control mage. If she goes in she has to decide weather or not to ult her self or a squishy. Her travel ablity has a huge tell on in it and people can easily see where she is going. Personally i think Liss is fine

Annie. She is a weird one. I will say she is pretty balanced at this point and time. Her stun is a floating ability that has to be manged. Also one rotation of spells is not enough to use the ability, it just charges it. Her range for spells is pretty low (400). Plus one of her spells is purely defensive limiting her DPS potential. She is immobile which justifies a lot of strength since she has to all in.

I am not sure WW is a ball of stats as much as his game play pattern is not a clean as it could be. He is a drain fighter so the life steal thing make sense. His kit overall made more sense in the era of global buffs.

the rest i pretty much i agree with.

Rinky Dinky1/1/2015, 11:03:40 PM2 votes

Gnar is not a ball of stats... bad example. Everything else is mostly true.

The problem with Gnar is that he is the anti-thesis of a tank.

Ranged, can Perma slow, great escape, speed steriods, can turn into a better tank than most other actual tanks, and %hp Magic damage.

He is not problematic because of his numbers. He is problematic because his kit is overloaded. He is a great concept, but he shouldnt outclass actual tanks when he himself is both a Tank, Fighter, and ranged.

He should be good in both forms, but not the best of either class in either form.

Cloud27312/31/2014, 8:55:31 PM1 votes

The mages listed by OP are perfect in every way and deserve to be nerfed (especially Veigar). Lux and Xerath are fine the way they are, because it's actually possible to dodge their skillshots. With Veigar, even if he misses his stun, you're still trapped inside the box, so he is REWARDED for missing a skillshot. Doesn't make a lot of sense. And I'm not going to accept mobility as a weakness, because they can just get boots and it fixes that problem. And boots of mobility is an EXTREMELY cheap item. Meanwhile the item needed to counter them costs about 1600 gold.

AerialBlade12/31/2014, 9:44:45 PM1 votes

Yasuo has 2 steroids, like every melee adc. Is it ok for fiora to have 100 ad at level 1? Or trynd to dive you at level 6 no matter what? Its just as ok as yasuo having those two..

Nausicäa 1/1/2015, 8:00:34 AM1 votes

I find it hilarious you try to lump Syndra into a bunch of champions with no skillshots and instant kill level burst. Last time i checked Syndra had 3 skillshots.

Also the fact that you call Xerath's gameplay patterns healthy in comparison is even more hilarious. He bullies even worse than Syndra and can hit you from across the lane.

Xela Syab1/1/2015, 7:18:42 PM1 votes

Yeah I hate Gnar and Lee, (gnar needs nerfs to his base tank stats so he's killable and not a terrible kiting lanebully Alistar/Vayne/Sivir hybrid) (lee needs nerfs to the missle speed on his q it moves way faster than any skillshot in the game which is how he ganks so well and is such a successful assassin) I think Luc is balanced now with his passive nerf. Akali and WW do have alot of sustain. Yas is ok he's like Yi if you have ranged cc you can shut him down.

DlGNITY12/31/2014, 9:22:51 PM

Veigar Idea:

Passive/Q stays the same. W gives a large slow for a short amount of time, maybe followed by a small slow (5%-10%) for around 5 seconds to give him a little chasing ability. E is a 1/1.5 second channel. R becomes an AP + Mana steal from an enemy champion.

Veigar should still have roughly the same burst except he wouldn't just delete people who build AP, but still follow the Q-stacking, mage counter theme that he is.