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Veigar's United. We can't let the little master of evil die!

Yiffed By Veigar··83 votes·5,452 views

Well, I want to talk again about Veigar, It seems like Riot really doesn't care at all since he is one of the most unpopular champions, so Riot doesn't give a damn, the less we use him, the better for Riot, or at least this is how I see it, but he is one of my favorite champions, so I guess I will need find a way to use him for now.

But I'm still waiting for the Le Blanc "compensation" since she was affected for the DFG removal, I don't know, maybe make her Q a skill shot and give the W a 0.75 sec delay! with beautiful warning particles!

Please, don't get me wrong, I really thing she is perfectly ok the way she is now, but so was Veigar, once he used all his combo, he was just helpless and useless without any other CC, since the stun had a really long CD and don't forget his lack of mobility, plus he is squishy as hell.

And a lot of people say Veigar is ok now, but that's not true, they only say that because they don't play that champion, The Q change is ok, even the R nerf is ok, but if you nerf his stun without giving him a real compensation, that is totally wrong and unfair! like a lot of people say, maybe the delay is ok, but give him a reward since you can only attempt to capture your prey inside (because lets face it, no one, is gonna get stunned now, if they are competent at this game) maybe when someone is inside the cage, Veigar deals more damage, or maybe they get slowed while the walls of the box form, or maybe inside the box everyone gets slowed and blinded! And no, I'm not talking abut a blind just like Teemo or Quinn's Q, I was thinking of something like Graves W since Veigar E resembles a black hole, and maybe when they are inside of the box they can't see the borders! so this way maybe they will get stunned... unless they kindly stop moving!

Well, Thats all I got to say folks. Thanks for reading this and remember... Don't let the little master of evil die!Veigar

P.D: Yes, I know they are working on him at the PBE server, but the bufs are the equivalent of the Zed nerf (they are ridiculous)

110 Comments

WuWo25 votes

With the upcoming change to decrease Veigar's stun delay by .25 sec, the only change I really want now is to decrease the delay on his W. If you want to decrease the reliability on his stun, okay fine. At least, then, change the fact that his W is dependent on his E. Make the W land faster per rank.

TlDr: If E is going to be less reliable, W has to be more reliable.

Yoella17 votes

It's worth noting that in patch 5.4 Veigar's delay was ACTUALLY 1 full second, despite it being listed as 0.75 seconds. This was due to a 0.25 second animation that's always played before the spell casts (or in 5.4, begins to cast). So now his delay is getting reduced to 0.75, as the animation is now included in the delay. So really it's much more of a correction than a buff. Regardless, that and the fact that his stun interrupts dashes should help him out.

And I totally agree with your proposed changes to W, I think it was actually mentioned by a Riot employee as well. I'm just afraid they'll lower the ratio in order to do that.

Trídent3 votes

Yeah I heard the same that the total adding up to one second was a mistake... and that they had planned for it to only have a .75 delay... and that E "buff" was just to set things right ;_;

Yiffed By Veigar5 votes

that's sad to hear :c

Thryale6 votes

yeah, well with the recent nerfs to veig's ult, his W only deals 180 less dmg than his ult. Come late game, a 180 dmg difference is nothing.

That being said, and while I would like to see the delay on his W lowered, I feel that as long as his q is a skill shot, this is a bad idea. Simply put, if riot continues this trend for veigar, they are going to drastically alter his core identity as a single-target burst mage in favor of a more homogenized poke mage. And an inefficient one at that. If I want a poke/zone control mage, why would I pick veigar when I could pick Xerath or ziggs? "but veig has teh dmgz" Oh really? Why wouldn't I just pick syndra then? She fulfills the same niche that veigar is getting shoved into while having a more forgiving stun, and reliable self peel in the form of a small knockback.

Drakylon13 votes

Veigar's power curve is just really weird. He's a burst mage, which is supposed to be strongest mid-game when squishies build pure damage, but all of his skills point to a more powerful late-game. However, by then, most will already have gotten defense and HP to survive his burst, meaning he's stuck with the inability to actually burst anyone down. What's a Veigar to do?

PIusxUItra9 votes

Even though people might build some defenses against him he will continue to stack his Q. and if you are a good Veigar you will use your Ult on the right enemy, or if the APC is dead, use it on the next guy, which would be ADC.

Still, all Im saying is that they might build defenses but his AP will never stop growing.

And also, i agree that maybe his ult can get an extra ability thrown in, like making them slow inside his E so maybe it would be easier to hit his W. Or anything related. They will certainly not touch the ring so, no stun there.

Basidiomycota11 votes

riot hates point and click champions w/ no mobility. not fun to watch so they killed the little guy. i dont think anyone thought he has OP because of his stun but he have to let champs jump around freely so poor veigar got the nurf bat

Yiffed By Veigar10 votes

totally agree dude, but this is supposed to be a game, and a game is for fun! I don't want to be only able to play using Ahri, Zed, Leblanc... I just want to break the meta and have fun sometimes, use my little Veigar as support with my friends and enjoy the game, so I dont see why they nerf a champion only because just a little bunch of people use him.

KoryCooper7 votes

I agree with you, but I don't agree with Riot's approach. If him being point and click champions with no mobility, then they should have at least done a good rework on Veigar making him more "fun" to watch.

ARC Malafide9 votes

I don't see why they don't just shrink the circle the size of 1 or 2 characters and put it back how it was. Works for Annie, and it would be a smaller circle, so everyone can stop crying. Easier to land for us, same effect as others have (as passives, no less), and more dead bodies. It can still be used to shut down some of the #LCSBIGPLAYS characters.. oh, right. Nevermind.

Been trying to play him the last couple days, and it is horrible. His ring can't keep him safe, it can't engage. Just a way to dump mana before you get nuked all to hell by someone.

Edit: The ring needs to be altered or replaced. How they have it now is just worthless. I cast the ring with Soraka in the middle of the cast. Wasn't trying to stun her, as that is impossible now. It is just a really poor imitation of J4's ult. But no, she managed to walk out of the entire thing before it even appeared. That is just plain stupid.

I don't like the Q change to be honest. But at least you can still play him with it. W is also worthless at this point. You have a Q and an R with no means of escape, protection, or engage. Guess that's all you need. He was already an incredibly unpopular champ, now he is unplayable also.

For the last week, winrate in Master+ for NA... 28%. With 0 games played in two regions. How the hell do you get played so little that you don't even appear on least popular character lists? Seriously. 0 games in a week. But yeah, removing a .25 delay off his already delayed stun will boost that up. Maybe that will nudge him into being played once in the EU.

shark music9 votes

I'm not a Veigar, but I did buy him and his Superb Villain costume right before they nuked the poor little guy. It WOULD be nice to be able to play him without having to brave a... let's say "snowstorm"... of criticism and unhappiness.

Yiffed By Veigar7 votes

He was the first champion I used when I started playing league of legends and that's why I have this deep connection with him, even before the nerf he wasn't popular at all, even sometimes at the team builder they kicked me out if they saw I was using Veigar, and when I was the one building the team with some friends and they saw a Veigar in the list, they automatically left... I just hate getting stuck on the meta, I just want to play this game for fun, and not because it's a full time job, I don't want to be a "pro player", I'm not even that good at this game, I just want to have some fun and enjoy my spare time.

UPfreely8 votes

the best way to help him live is to main veigar until he gets buffed back to his glory

BLU Medic8 votes

I ran into a Veigar yesterday in ARAM. They had an entire poke team, I ws Sona with 4 pretty immobile tanks, not really using my E. The poor Veigar still couldn't hit us. I actually walked into his stun once because I felt bad.

But yeah, Veigar's not exactly okay. It's bad enough they put a looong delay on his stun, but there's also a shiny particle that screams "LOOK I AM ABOUT TO PLACE MY STUN, MOVE AWAY!" Why? I dunno. Once the stun is down, everyone knows not to walk into the dangerous glowing wall things.

PKnowledge8 votes

Good girl Sona, walking into Veigar's stun out of pity ! Give this man a poro snack ! item 2052

Yiffed By Veigar6 votes

I wonder if that was my game? It sounds so familiar... But I cached Amumu a lot of times when he threw himself, so I got that goin' for me, which is nice.

Oh and here your cookie... It's a diet one. item 2054

BLU Medic7 votes

No, sadly, that wasn't you. We didn't have an Amumu. It was Sona, Leona, Warwick, Tryndamere and Wukong VS Zilean, Veigar, Lulu, Karthus and Nasus. I checked my match history. Another match that I spectated (my friend's match), the Veigar there had a similar issue, found it nigh impossible to land their stun. When landing your stun or not decides whether you're going to win or lose a fight, having a 1 second delay on it and a giant warning symbol is just plain bad.

Thank you, I like cookies.

Yiffed By Veigar7 votes

Yeah I know, actually when I started playing someone mentioned that Teemo blinds for 1 second and I thought “Wow, one second, that sounds so stupid” but once I started playing I realized that a second in LoL is too much, enough time to go to Starbucks for a coffee, maybe watch Netflix for a while, go out with your friends, come back and Teemo´s blind is still in effect (I´m just being dramatic, it is obviously not enough for any of that but it sure seems like it) So I agree with you, 1 second warning is too much and renders Veigar obsolete.

BLU Medic5 votes

I used to think the same thing. Used to think that a lot of these 1-2 second slows were rather meh. The more you play, the more you see that every single second counts.

Loken Stoneheart8 votes

Riot has a habit of destroying champions with little to no remorse. I get that balancing isn't easy, but when EVERYONE was screaming bloody murder about how this change was going to destroy him, maybe they should consider NOT doing that. But, naw. It was on the PBE, its too late, its not like the PBE is meant for feedback or anything.

Yiffed By Veigar6 votes

You're right, and that's totally disappointing.

Wheatloaf7 votes

Taking 0.25 seconds off his stun delay, making it stop dashes in their tracks, and speeding up his Q (thereby making it more reliable) all are not nearly as negligible changes as Zed's attack speed nerf was (It really only nerfed his splitpushing, almost his farming, and his dps against tankier targets slightly). Wait until you can play with the changes, and judge again from there. It's entirely possible they won't at all be enough, but it might scale down what you think Veigar needs to live again.

PKnowledge13 votes

Let's see those changes :

  • 0.25 sec off the delay. Not really. The delay is the same, 0.75s. What you're talking about is the animation delay, and that's a huge difference. Because the opponent still clearly see the warning circle during 0.75s, and that make the stun as easy to dodge as before. The stun is easier to use for Veigar, still easy to dodge

  • Event horizon stop dashes in their track. What is the use of this, since you can dash during the delay to avoid the area ? The only use of this is when you corner someone within the spell, so he can't get out of it. Unless he has a flash or a blink... Even if enemies "can't" get out, they still have enough space to avoid both Q and W.

  • Q spell buff. More reliable. Everything is fine then, I still can't land my spells, but my farming tool is more reliable.

So yes, the nerf on Zed is as big as the buff on Veigar.

Yiffed By Veigar10 votes

They dont take off 0.25 seconds, his E's delay is starting before the abilities cast time rather than after. the Q increased missile speed is a joke... a short joke, but yeah, Veigar at the PBE servers is so much more reliable than the live version, but still useless, you can stop dashes now, but there is a little problem, they must be INSIDE the box, you can still dash before the box appears (and don't forget it cant stop the blinks aka ezreal, flash etc).

And I was just giving some suggestions, I wasn't saying that this is as it should be and what should be done by Riot.

Curling Veigar7 votes

Its likely that W's delay might be lowered

Yiffed By Veigar7 votes

Haha yeah, I totally agree with you, I was just suggesting the slow and blind changes for the E's stun, because I usually play as a support Veigar and that shit totally works for me!

Flemman7 votes

With the new change to the wall (dash stop as soon as the champ touch the wall), we can assume ally knockback do the same too.

So, if he really need some buff after the next patch (and is W will probably be the target), why not make the spell produce an "area knock back" (like ziggs W) when cast in Event horizon (ennemy trap will be forced to choose bewteen taking damage and not being displace much or take no damage but being trow in the stun)

Yiffed By Veigar7 votes

Wow, that actually sounds pretty good +1 ^^

But the problem to catch them in the middle still remains, but we well see.

Galactopus7 votes

Riot should just put his stun back the way it was he has plenty of weaknesses. Riot has some list they think they should base their "balance" on without understanding what they're doing. I mean Azir, Kass, and Veig were all nerfed recently and all are at less that 40% win rate now, so they obviously don't know what they're doing with their changes.

PKnowledge8 votes

I think that Riot knew what they were doing with Veigar. They didn't want him in the pro games, because he's not allowing skill-based counterplay, only strategic counterplay. And that's what they're trying to get rid of. They don't want strategy, they want skill display in flashy trades.

That is the main reason. The other one is really close : Players that play on reflexes alone, having great skill with their high-mobility champion, were being destroyed because they didn't think twice before going in.

That is the direction the game is taking : less strategy, more display of skill in flashy trades. Veigar just happened to be a strategic champion played recently in the LCS, and hence couldn't stay the way he was.

KoryCooper6 votes

Basically Riot is just ditching the whole smart part of the game, going full Brawn and no Brain, man, he's really taking a liking into being a sport...

CupcakeTrap7 votes

because lets face it, no one, is gonna get stunned now, if they are competent at this game

I think this is the critical point. It's now a stun that only stuns people if they stand still or (for some reason) decide to run into it. It's become less of a stun and more of a cage. So, Veigar's E now allows Veigar to trap an enemy and force them to fight him 1v1 at close range…which does not usually end very well for tiny little Veigar. This is precisely what used to happen when you missed a stun: the most likely outcome was that the other mage would delete poor Veigar, though sometimes you would blow each other up.

Maybe hitting someone with Q inside your cage should stun them. Maybe W should have reduced cooldown inside the cage. Maybe amp up damage inside the cage (but not for people who run into the walls), making opponents decide between trying to dodge skillshots inside the cage or taking one guaranteed rotation at normal damage ("double or nothing"). I don't know. Something.

Yiffed By Veigar8 votes

OMG! Yeah, that's exactly what I want, a serious Compensation on his E's stun, because just as you say, if the old Veigar missed his stun, they would blow him up to the sun (because one time I missed a stun on jinx and I panicked so I was trying to decide between fight her or run away from her, but my E ends first and she runs to me and kills me) so right now, they are the ones who choose being stunned or not (if they can get out of the warning animation in time) if they choose to stay in the cage, they will kill you, considering in front of them are some creeps to stop your Q's damage and they move aside of the W's animation, the only source of damage remaining is the ultimate, and that won't kill anyone, so you know you're dead at that time.

CupcakeTrap6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zeke The Yordle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OIeIt0Wy,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2015-03-10T18:43:20.545+0000)

OMG! Yeah, that's exactly what I want, a serious Compensation on his E's stun, because just as you say, if the old Veigar missed his stun, they would blow him up to the sun (because one time I missed a stun on jinx and I panicked so I was trying to decide between fight her or run away from her, but my E ends first and she runs to me and kills me) so right now, they are the ones who choose being stunned or not (if they can get out of the warning animation in time) if they choose to stay in the cage, they will kill you, considering in front of them are some creeps to stop your Q's damage and they move aside of the W's animation, the only source of damage remaining is the ultimate, and that won't kill anyone, so you know you're dead at that time.

"Good job, Veigar! You used EVENT HORIZON! Now, you get to fight a duel with Syndra! Yaaaaaay!"

I find it highly problematic. The archetypal burst mage duel is the two of you jockeying for position, each trying to land their stun first. Whoever gets stunned gets deleted. Well, now it sure isn't going to be Veigar doing the stunning.

Yiffed By Veigar6 votes

The problem here is that Veigar´s box offers no advantage for him, it´s just a nice decoration that when used, your opponent knows you have no CC left, and they can kill you without any effort.

Rinky Dinky3 votes

The buffs on pbe are actually amazing.

They just need to adjust his E more, or his w.

Yiffed By Veigar7 votes

Yup, I will be tuned for the next PBE changes in the next cycle, I really hope they make Veigar viable again.

Reazale6 votes

They are not amazing , they arent fixing any of his problems, his weakness are still there, his counter play is still there and his ability to land W and E is still lacking.

This half assed rework has me on my nerves...

Blade100451 votes

What I never loved about Veigar is that I could punt him with Diana to 0/9/0 in lane. Then with one stun. ult, w I would just disappear. Against a Leblanc (I don't have trouble laning against her at all) you can dodge her chains, cutting out the damage of two q's and possibly an ult. With Veig I never even had that chance. As soon as I saw the box on me, I would go downstairs, grab a beer and wait out my 20 second death timer. Is 0,75 seconds delay harsh? Yes. Is 0,25 second reduction on that delay better? Yes. And I will tell you now, the dash stop makes life hell for many assassins mid. Diana, Ahri, Akali are all gutted by it now. If your in there, your stuck in the middle of a team fight with no escape. I think actually being able to fight a Veigar no matter how hard you stomped him is rather nice now.

As for the q speed up. It does more than you are aware of. Much harder to dodge, and you cannot hide behind your minions now without taking meaningful poke.

Yiffed By Veigar6 votes

My point here is that you are talking about Veigar's utility in the late game and on team fights. Considering how passive you must play him now you will only accomplish to feed mid, or the other mid just gets tired of this passive lane and just leaves for other lanes while he just pokes at you leaving you hugging your turret.

Also, you say that mobile assassins will be useless? You really think they will let you get them with your stun? I would believe that if it was his stun before the nerf. But me, as an Akali and I see the warning of his stun coming I'll just jump on him and kill him.

Blade100451 votes

With 100 mr, 350 ap on Diana lvl 13. Viegar has say 2 items.. rabadon and morello nothing else. No stacks on his passive, no magic pen a vieg r w would deal, lvl 11. Ult will run roughly ~750 damage. Plus about 200ish with the w and whatever the q adds. On an assassin that is an instant KO. Also, if Veig is smart, he can put up his cage as soon as a q is landed. By the time the ult takes to travel the .75 sec will pass and it will be a stun outside of the box (in Diana's case 800 range outside box). So with about ~1000 flat damage with not many items vieg can still nuke an ap carry. Doubt my math?

http://www.lolsum.com/#/app/allInOne Plug in numbers here, you will also notice that they forgot 80% enemy ap in his ult, so that is without it.

Reazale7 votes

375(base ult)+280 (dmg done cos of ur ap)+260 (base Q)+ 520 ( ap sacaling {[120{raba}+80{morello}+50{ap farm}]*1.3}*1.6{q+r ratios})=1435

lvl 13 diana has 45 mr and 1575 hp Which means , that even with 0 magi resist she would survive a Veigars (QR) combo if she doesnt get hit be his W which isnt hard to dodge even if u are stunned be a rank 1 E (u can just R as soon as the stun wears off and u will dodge it). And plz stop talking shit out of ur arse , dianas R doesnt take .75 secs to do its travel.

375(base ult)+280 (dmg done cos of ur ap)+260 (base Q)+220+ 845 ( ap sacaling {[120{raba}+80{morello}+50{ap farm}]*1.3}*2.6{q+r ratios})=1980

NOW if Veigar hits his full combo he has the chance to kill diana if we dont take MR into consideration... with 100 mr u would reduce 50% if the dmg u take (thats like 1k , diana is still at 1/3 of her hp with all her cds). Diana would survive even his burst even when running no mr at all (1365 dmg taken from the full combo).

There u have it , u are talking shit. Not even gonna mention how unrealistic it would be for a lvl 11 0/9/0 Veigar to have farmed 50 Q ap and a rabbadon...

EDIt: forgot , there u have ur downvote, u deserve it.

PKnowledge12 votes

So you're telling me that Veigar is 0/9/0 in lane against Diana, and you disappear with Q+R+W ? 2 possibilities :

  • You're in late game (30 min+), and Veigar still managed to farm while loosing his lane.
  • You built full AP. No MR, no HP. Veigar can't burst Diana when he's that behind, unless you have 600 AP and no def stat.

In any case, why the hell would you try to trade him ? He has 650 range on his ult, why would you go near him when playing APC ? Just let your team kill him, he can only kill you. Or buy a banshee, or an abyssal, both would save you.

Seriously, Veigar is so easy to avoid/counter when you're ahead of him. Just stop trying to trade him 1v1...

As for the q speed up. It does more than you are aware of. Much harder to dodge, and you cannot hide behind your minions now without taking meaningful poke.

Have you really played him ? I'm not aware of the Q power, despite playing him more than you ? Hiding behind your minions is still safe since it can only go across one.

Yiffed By Veigar8 votes

Wow... You're so wise! (not in a sarcastic way) +1 to all your posts!

PKnowledge3 votes

Thanks, but I don't think that's "wisdom". I just talk and read a lot about this chaotic yordle recently, that's why I can answer more accurately ;)

Yiffed By Veigar7 votes

Well, I do consider you wise since you are not biased, because you keep yourself informed and since you do have knowledge in the matter, your opinion is actually valuable and preatty accurate.

OJ1919 votes

{quoted}

What I never loved about Veigar is that I could punt him with Diana to 0/9/0 in lane. Then with one stun. ult, w I would just disappear. Against a Leblanc (I don't have trouble laning against her at all) you can dodge her chains, cutting out the damage of two q's and possibly an ult. With Veig I never even had that chance. As soon as I saw the box on me, I would go downstairs, grab a beer and wait out my 20 second death timer. Is 0,75 seconds delay harsh? Yes. Is 0,25 second reduction on that delay better? Yes. And I will tell you now, the dash stop makes life hell for many assassins mid. Diana, Ahri, Akali are all gutted by it now. If your in there, your stuck in the middle of a team fight with no escape. I think actually being able to fight a Veigar no matter how hard you stomped him is rather nice now.

As for the q speed up. It does more than you are aware of. Much harder to dodge, and you cannot hide behind your minions now without taking meaningful poke.

calling bullshit, why do you not have AT MINIMUM abyssal and mercs, that + your shield should easily let you survive if he is that far behind.

Thumpin1 votes

Riot's not done buffing him. Relax.

Yiffed By Veigar12 votes

I will, I only wish that Riot would do with Veigar the same thing he did with Viktor, that would be great!

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