So ADC discussion.

Adalvar·12/14/2016, 8:23:15 PM·8 votes·1,745 views

So, before anyone starts, this is not a "RITO buff ADC's, they so weak" post. This is meant to be a post to discuss in a civil fashion the current state of ADC's and see what can be changed. Regardless of the strengths of the role, it has been noted to be very frustrating and dependant on more outside factors than ever before. Now before we start, i'll say. I'm a scrub, by every sense of the word, i suck alot of times at League. That being said i follow the scene on all it's levels (regular games, streamers, pros, LCS, theory-crafting, etc, etc). Given the amount of time i spent in trying to learn these things, i'd like to think my points and ideas are atleast in the right direction.

Now let's discuss the ADC "issue" noting the positive and negative aspects of the role ATM: Positives:

  • Sustained damage to burn objectives (towers, jungle monsters).
  • Ranged DPS for teamfights.
  • Lategame scaling insurance policy. (depending on which ADC is picked)

Negatives:

  • Extremely item dependant.
  • Generally the primary focus at all game stages.
  • Highly vulnerable at all game stages.
  • Highly team dependant.

So how does this work? On one end ADC's are the only mandatory role in the game, meaning what they bring to the table is impossible to pass up. On the other hand they are one of the most resource absorbing roles while being one of the least impactful roles for the first 20-25 minutes of the game. Let's see the reasons for this:

  • High pressure on bottom lane. With the current strength of junglers, ADC weak early game, weaker bottom tower, first blood gold and which ever drake is up, the amount of resouces and snowball potential that lies on the bottom lane is through the roof at the moment. This means that especially during the first 5-10 minutes bottom can expect anything from a jungle gank to a bottom lane TP to a mid lane roam and have to deal with anything from a 3v2 to a 4v2, etc, etc.
  • Vulnerabilty to enemy pressure. A stray AOE or CC or both and your contribution is donezo.
  • Fragile early game. At the moment even "bully" ADC's are very weak at the laning phase. This is either due to having low base damages on their spells, low ranges or general low base stats. Mobility may or may not also be an issue, but again this depends on which ADC you are playing.
  • Awkward itemzation. You can either be a bully or a hypercarry ADC, but 80% chance, you are going to require 3 item slots simply for crit items and to actually get your core spike online. That means it becomes difficult to spec into more specialized items.

Problem is, you can't simply buff the class and here's why:

  • Lategame power. By the same issue of building triple crit, when an ADC can actually reach that point they become a DPS power house, capable of burning down champions and objectives. Even some of the lower-end DPS ADC's can wreck havoc on an enemy team if left alone.
  • Tower taking. ADC's are second to none when it comes to taking towers.
  • Individual balancing issues. Several ADC's have had complex balancing issues, going through a slew of buffs and nerfs. This is either due to having a kit with too many moving parts and effects (e.g Kalista), having a part of their kits that is almost completely obsolete (Ezreal W, Lucian W), or having misguided design directions (Quinn, Graves, Kog). As a result these ADC's require more than simple numbers tweaks.

So we have a class that has little impact when compared to others, but still has to be in the game. So what are the possible solutions to this? I'm gonna list a few of my ideas and will want to hear other ideas from comments. So here we go:

  • Make top side have a set of rewards that can alleviate bottom lane jungle pressure.
  • Modify ADC base stats, to have some early-to-mid game impact. I.e increase base attack speed on ADC to 0.9/0.95 ish, lower the scaling attack per level. This will make trades and last hits feel stronger and more fluid.
  • Increase the base range of lower range ADC's from 500 to 525. 500 range ADC's are very easy to zone and susceptible get hit by some stray spell, regardless of positioning.
  • Increase the base damage of caster ADC core damage spells and reduce the AD scaling. Make it so certain caster ADC spells can critically strike for a small % damage increase which can be increased by the modified item 3508 noted below. These "spell crits" would be based on more than just RNG due to being CD gated. Stronger early game until levels 9-11 and stronger 2 item spikes, then casters get overtaken by AA based ADC, due to their basics not being empowered by item 3031.
  • Increase the power of ADC stims. SInce item and level based attack speed gains are getting reduced, steroids can be increased and it makes a better difference between early and lategame ADC's.
  • ADC reworks: Quinn Graves KogMaw these 3 need to be remade from scratch since not only did they missed all of their core goals, but they were completely pushed from the bot lane role entirely. Kalista needs a medium scale rework (Gangplank Fiora level) stream-linning her abilities and removing some of her conflicting passives and interactions. Lucian Ezreal MissFortune these 3 would do fine with Alistar level changes to their respective W's and E. The idea is to make these spells have an actual impact when using them and make future balance adjustments easier to be by virtue of having more points to buff and nerf.
  • Reduce ADC item costs. Small amounts on item 3086, item 3072, etc for instance.
  • item 3086item 3006 These items would need lose attack speed (i.e reduce the completed items attack speed to 20%, boots the same, and PD to 30%). Additionally their crit chance is now unique to discourage triple crit builds by building double Zeal items. To compensat their passives could now be buffed in some way (item 3094 now deals more tower damage/gives higher range, item 3087 now hits more minions, item 3046 gives more movespeed and damage reduction to allow better kitting, etc, etc to make each one an appealing choice to each ADC and each situation)
  • item 3508item 3031 Modifications on these items. item 3508 could lose one of it's currents passives and get one to make it work like an item 3031 for certain caster ADC abilities. The damage increase could be a % flat one or one based on a AD scaling to help make the curve smoother or spikier and make the fall off less jarring. Also make their passives unique named ones with the same name to avoid double stacking. General idea here is return to the pre season 6 ADC rework state where you only built 2 crit items on crit based ADC's. That way Zeke's actually becomes a viable support item again. Modified item 3508 would be the core item for caster ADC's such as (Graves Lucian MissFortune Sivir QuinnJhin) and give them a visible early game spike. item 3031 would then be built by more AA focused scalers (Ashe Jinx Caitlyn Twitch Vayne).
  • item 3035 Introduce a third variant of this item that can help deal with the current over-kill of shields. Maybe one that reduces shield effectiveness against targets below a certain health threshold (Similar to Morello). That way shields become less of a cheese way to avoid kills and more of a way to block the damage that would leave in such low health. This one is more personal bias.

This is all for now. General idea is to A) make ADC's not so crap early game. B) Make their stages of power more visible (early, mid, late). C) Make them slightly less team dependant and more capable of carrying by themsleves. D) Dimish the pressure in botlane.

So now i wanna hear from the rest of the people. Plz no insults or troll or ELO remarks. Just thoughts on what can be done, either nerfs or buffs.

EDIT: My grammar and spelling suck

37 Comments

Rebonack12/14/2016, 9:31:23 PM6 votes

Just to pitch it, I wouldn't mind seeing Critical Strike turned into a named passive so you only get the benefit of one of them. It would require a MASSIVE overhaul of itemization, but I think it would be well worth the trouble. Make three, maybe four critical strike items all in the same general price range with 33% crit chance and different passives to cater to different types of champions.

Essentially, crit would be removed as a stat you can purchase. Component items that currently have Crit in them (so item 3086, basically) would have the Brawler Glove replaced with a Longsword. The only time Crit chance would come into play is once the 3.5k or whatever crit item is fully completed. Just to field a few ideas...

item 1038 + item 3035 + item 1037 = item 3031 Grants a heap of AD, Critical Strike, the Last Whisper effect, and- UNIQUE passive: Your critical strikes ignore (percentage) of the target's total armor.

item 1038 + item 3133 + item 1037 = item 3508 Grants oodles of AD, Critical Strike, up to 30% CDR based on your bonus attack damage, and- UNIQUE passive: Your critical strikes recover (percentage) of your max mana.

item 1038 + item 1043 + item 3086 = item 3085 Grants solid AD, attack speed, Critical Strike OnHit magic damage, and- UNIQUE passive: Your critical strikes double-proc OnHit effects. Doesn't stack with Guinsoo's Rage.

item 1038 + item 3144 + item 1036 = item 3122 Grants Lotsa lifesta, lotsa AD, Critical Strike, and- UNIQUE passive: Your critical strikes heal you for (percentage) of the damage they deal.

doublelift fg12/14/2016, 11:04:51 PM5 votes

{quoted} A) make ADCs not so crap early game.

give me a support and i can destroy anyone that isn't an adc at lvl 1 "but you need someone" and? it's as if support role isn't mandatory

{quoted} B)Make their stages of power more visible (early, mid, late)

what should i get from this post? you said yourself that you're inexperimented, play ADC first and come back later to talk with me, their power is already visible and i don't understand what isn't visible

{quoted} C) Make them slightly less team dependant and more capable of carrying by themsleves.

??????????????? that's the entire point of ADC, you think they should destroy everyone by their own? i don't want to be fucking azir, i want to be someone throwing stuff from far away melting literally everyone while staying in front of my front line, when i play adc i imagine myself in a fucking war being a sniper and my front line is a wall or something preventing people to come on me

{quoted} D) Dimish the pressure in botlane.

i really don't know what you're talking about

TLDR OF MY OPINION: i like ADC like they are, i don't understand what you're trying to do and more i hate the changes you're doing. At this point the only changes that can be made to adc is making them less mandatory because it's the only thing that makes sens and i can understand

Anonagon12/14/2016, 11:53:27 PM2 votes

The Quinn and Graves reworks are not and never were bad, and the fact that they aren't played in a duo lane isn't inherently a problem. These are well designed champions with strong core fantasies that their kits support, and their reworks are among the best to come out of any of the class updates.

I do agree that on the whole, ADCs as a class need significant changes to not have such dramatic powercurves, to be more relevant before they get items and less domineering after. I'm not too keen on a lot of the ways you plan to achieve that, but I agree with the direction.

Rivuo12/14/2016, 9:45:58 PM2 votes

At this point its safe to say adcs are trash until 30 minutes.

Drehirth12/14/2016, 8:44:01 PM2 votes

While I like any real discussion when it comes to ADC, and I agree that you usually spend the first half of the game being every other role's play thing, don't you think that any substantial overall boost to early game power of the class would have to be compensated for with some sort of late game nerf?

I think an idea like this could work, but it should be accompanied with some sort of crit rework (such as turning it into some sort of guaranteed damage that ramps up over time, so that other classes don't get two shot late game by a dps class).

DestructoDave12/14/2016, 11:29:01 PM2 votes

ADCs are always going to be mandatory because thats how the game is. And, its a complete weakness of the role. One lane is always going to have 2 people. Meaning, they are always going to be at an XP disadvantage. Since most solo laners scale primarily off levels, most of them will never fit well in bot lane. Ever. The champs that end up bot lane, are champs that scale primarily off gold, ADCs, and champs that have kits that don't require gold or Xp to be effective, like most supports. Thats just how its going to be. You pair them up. You dont NEED ADCs to win a game. Its not like A lichbane Ziggs can't 2 shot a tower. Its not like a Yasuo or a khazix or something cant destroy a dragon or baron. Just very few champs operate effectively at a XP disadvantage, and ADCs are one of them. Not to mention they aren't resource gated like AP champs trying to farm bot lane, and not harassed to death by 2 people as a melee.

Also, its not like other roles arent mandatory. What people seem to cry about, is the fact they can't play other trash in the ADC role. Other roles are more dynamic, and more open to different kinds of champs. Unfortunately, thats not how bot lane works.

ChargeItDownMid12/15/2016, 2:40:48 AM1 votes

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TenshouSNK12/14/2016, 11:52:53 PM1 votes

why don't they rework quinn into a bot lane adc?

Sup im Carrier12/15/2016, 1:08:39 AM1 votes

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FantasySniper12/15/2016, 2:38:16 AM1 votes

Crit turned into % damage amp instead of RNG.

Literally the only kits that would need adjustments are Jhin, Shaco, and Trynd.