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Hypercarries and their purpose.

Polynova··3 votes·1,457 views

I have just been thinking for a while, and I'm still not sure why there is a need for hyper carries. Can someone explain to me this position? I get they are supposed to be late game/reward, but my perspective on that is a little flawed too. I feel like late game, there should be coordinated plays, skilled outplays, stuff like that. I don't think a single champion should be enough to change the game flow so heavily, just because they paid for it early. Further, I feel that it's detrimental to players who AREN'T the hyper carry. It's not fun when you build everything you are supposed to as a tank for instance, but you are cut down like a hot knife through butter when a Master Yi just happens to have reached that point in the game. While I understand there is some coordination issues, i.e. focusing the hyper carry down, I still see scenarios, especially when defending turrets/objectives, where the hyper carry just outperforms in such a way that it makes you wonder just. what. you. are. supposed. to. do. I'm not writing this out of anger, not really. I just want to understand why this position exists and it's purpose.

Can anyone shed light on this? Is it just something that is necessary, or is it a byproduct of the entire "carry the game" agenda?

38 Comments

Stephenizgod2 votes

Issue I have with Hyper Carries is it feels like you are on a timer. If you can't end the game by x minutes you will probably lose. That isn't very fun gameplay, because if your whole team isn't working seamlessly together, you will end up losing to one hyper carry. Not to mention most of the time it doesn't matter how badly you stomp them early game, because at a certain point you won't be able to deal with them.

However the biggest issue is when they get a slight lead early on in the game, like say an unfortunate double kill which not only netted them gold but also free farm. On a normal champion, that is a big advantage in lane, but not big enough to end the game. On a Hyper Carry (like Vayne) that could be GG right there because they will be so far ahead in power, there is no catching up to them unless they literally AFK. That is how they work, they are meant to be leagues (puns!) ahead in power once they hit that point. If they hit it sooner than intended, they become unstoppable and the game is over off even the smallest of leads.

Polynova1 votes

In some aspects this is what I am saying. It isn't FUN to not be able to do anything against a single character. I perhaps chose tank as a single example, but any class versus a hyper carry really doesn't have anything they can do about them at a certain point. And that frustrates me and makes me wonder why they exist.

Teridax682 votes

"Hypercarry" has more or less become a catch-all term for any champion who's particularly strong in the late game. Every game is team-focused, and so there isn't any single champion who can truly carry the game by themselves unless they're tremendously fed. However, I agree that a great deal many "classic" hypercarries, e.g. Master Yi or Vayne, are designed with that in mind, and the issue with them specifically is that they just don't really present enough counterplay once they get fed enough.

One thing that annoys me in particular with a lot of "hypercarries" is that their power curve is entirely artificial: champions like Yasuo, Master Yi and Vayne are referred to as hypercarries, for example, but they all tend to be mediocre in teamfights. Generally, almost every light fighter/skirmisher has a hypercarry curve, but so far only Gangplank truly excels in team combat. It might be better to just normalize their power curves and see where they fall naturally: Yasuo, for example, has all the hallmarks of a lane bully, and typically plays like one in the hands of an experienced player (which is never healthy on a champion who's also meant to scale well into the late game), and Master Yi would probably be much more at home as a mid-game champion, since that's when his major strengths, e.g. roaming and sneak-capping objectives, are most important.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

in a game where defense can be allowed to be strong enough the game could actually continue forever with no winner.

In a game where two sides ill inevitably chip away at each other and eventually take objectives down the game will have to end sooner or later

Hypercarries in league are an anomaly almost but in other games they are actually the norm in manner of speaking

Polynova2 votes

except I'm not saying that damage should outweigh defense. I'm saying it shouldn't be such a large gap. I'm fine if I lose to damage as a tank, if it feels like I've tanked a sufficient amount/did my job. Your job becomes obsolete when hypercarries are added, it just seems like. And that to me makes the game unfun, if that makes sense.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

alright then how much damage should a tank be able to take rom the equivalent of a carry lategame.

How much is too much?

Polynova1 votes

I'm not a game balancer, nor a designer. I'm simply pointing out the fact that as it is currently, hypercarries make tanks feel irrelevant. Which is kinda messed up since your job as a tank is to... well... do tank stuff. Not die essentially as quickly as anyone else would.

Ralanr1 votes

Tanks are only really powerful in teamfights when their team actually fights. I can hold the attention of the hypercarry, but only long enough for my hypercarry to kill them.

Leafri1 votes

{quoted}

Tanks are only really powerful in teamfights when their team actually fights. I can hold the attention of the hypercarry, but only long enough for my hypercarry to kill them.

tanks are actually extremely strong in 1v1s. Have you ever played Yasuo and tried to 1v1 a malphite? unless you're extremely far ahead, he will crush you. hope this is a joke comment lmao

Polynova1 votes

I feel that, regardless, there is a point even in that 1v1 situation, that you as a tank, even Malphite, kinda just sit there because the damage of the Yasuo/Yi/Vayne/whatever is so high that you can't tank it, and once you use your one cc, you kinda don't have anything. I'm not suggesting you be able to outduel them, but I don't think that your health should drain at what is essentially the same speed as any other class.

Ralanr1 votes

It may drain at the same speed, but we have a lot more of it and survive longer because of it.

Polynova1 votes

It doesn't strike you as odd, that with our 150-200+ armor basically means that we are still having our health drained at the same speed as someone who has roughly 70? Yes we have a higher health pool total, but that second or whatever to me doesn't account for the fact that I spent a vast majority of my income building specifically so that I would NOT encounter a health drain at the same speed as the squishy.

Again, I could be biased. And I'm by no means a skilled player at this game. But I feel that asking these questions is a good way to try to learn.

Ralanr1 votes

Honestly it doesn't bother me that much. Against sustained damage it's more noticeable because we're weak to that. But burst I don't notice at all.

Leafri1 votes

just build armor and it wont? what's your point?

Polynova1 votes

I'm not disagreeing that tanks perform better in teamfights. But what I am suggesting is that hypercarries still make it seem, at least in my opinion, pointless to be a tank. If I can hold the attention of the hypercarry for 2 seconds and die because of it, and in that time nothing occurred, is that just a bad play? Or is it something wrong that is with the class because I can't stay in the fight longer than those 2 seconds.

Again, I don't claim to understand the role of the hypercarry. I just want to try to understand and make it so I can say "I did good" when I am killed in two seconds, like everyone else in the fight. Since tanks are supposed to last longer than that.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

So what would it take for you to feel relevant.

Who could possibly balance a game around such a vague description of what you want lol

Polynova1 votes

I don't have any answers. Simply my question and perception of what's occurring. It's entirely possible that I am in the minority when it comes to something like this, and since I don't have a conception of balance I can't say anything for sure.

I am just asking if it is necessary as it is. And I suppose also wondering why tanks can't last any reasonable length of time longer than any other class against them.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

I think its a matter of perception and strategy. They seem to do just fine to me. Tanks are situationally not even the tankiest class, fighters are better at surviving the extreme than tanks are in many cases even without a single hardcore defensive item. But this doesn't really bother me.

You say you want tanks to last longer but you can't say how long. There are probably many like you who say

"rito y u no make tanks last long"

and riot be like

"How long should they last"

and everyone just shrugs so they just try another number of seconds.

Also if a tank doesn't last longer than other classes then you're probably doing something wrong

Polynova1 votes

I'm not really saying something like "rito y u no make tanks last as long". I'm more asking about perception. Again, it is my opinion, but it does feel pretty bad when you are playing and there's simply nothing you can do, even though you built the correct defenses/health/whatever. It's these moments that I question. But you are accurate in the statement that it is something that needs to be clarified. My questioning is vague, but I think perhaps someone more eloquent than me might be able to create a notable question regarding what I am trying to ask.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

My questioning is vague, but I think perhaps someone more eloquent than me might be able to create a notable question regarding what I am trying to ask.

what I'm saying is that this is probably the answer to your question

it is what it is because its what the community asked for in one form or another but the community, that you are probably part of, is probably not much more eloquent than you and you actually aren't even inarticulate or anything. You just have no game design background and want something non-specific and will get something kindof random based off vague things.

Riot could adjust the game for whatever but they decided to try and balance the game by making games shorter and more aggressive which does actually have an effect on the balance of the game.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

are you aware of the fact you don't actually play any hardcore tanks?

Polynova1 votes

I'm aware that my preference is for supports generally, yes. But whenever I do play a "hardcore tank" the perception is there. I'm mostly positing a question. Perhaps, again, it is simply my being delusional, but I wanted to post this because I felt like there was this feeling of "not being able to do anything" that should have been addressed. If this entire post was made flawed, I am the first who would apologize.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

There's nothing to apologize for, but there is a common misconception about what a tank actually is.

I'm wondering what you think of as a hardcore tank.

Polynova1 votes

When I think tank, I think of characters like Malphite, Nautilus, Amumu, Zac. To a lesser extent I would say someone like Leona, but I feel she is stunted in her potential to soak damage and initiate due to her support salary.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

Not sure how you're having trouble surviving as these champs.

When I want to live along time I usually pick Leona despite her budget. I don't even consider Leona to really be a support champ in the design sense. She is just pure tank which fills the support rule. She is like the pure tank equivalent of nautilus who is also a jungler/fighter lol. Zac is also a tank fighter, he survives partly by healing and reviving. Amumu is the only other one that just gets ridiculous resistances but he is kindof limited as well since he mostly just relies on silly base stats and an attack shield which I believe doesn't block damage from abilities? Maybe it does.

sidenote: ಠ_ಠ malphite is not a legit tank lol

I've not had any issue tanking even in this meta. But I think it may be the champs I play and/or the items I build.

Polynova1 votes

Well, I would point out that two very specific examples of not surviving occur regarding True damage, specifically Vayne and Yi. But I feel that might be too specific instead of a generalized look at the Hypercarry role by itself.

It is entirely possible that I'm not building correctly. But it feels like I can't shake off enough damage to be relevant.

Ralanr1 votes

Tanks are usually meant to fall off late game. It's natural.

Polynova1 votes

Okay, but why are they meant to fall off then?

Ralanr1 votes

Because the game needs to end eventually.

If tanks were a late game class, then people could just turtle forever.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

so the game can end in a timely manner

looking at your builds I'd say your real issue is that you never build much hp

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

Against dealers of true damage you have to know something about the damage they deal to handle it properly.

For example after the (actually kindof meticulous) math is done vayne tends to invalidate 25% of your defenses if you are built optimally and up to like 50-60% if you are not. Maybe more if she's built strictly around countering your defense.

Yi on the otherhand has limited true damage and can be counterbuilt better with hp and armor. The other day I was fighting yi as shyvanna (who isn't an actual tank) and yi needed an excessively long time to kill me. I couldn't kill him either but he needed way too long to do anything to me even though I had no CC. Whenever he wasted his ult to kill me, vayne could do the same, he'd just be slaughtered in teamfights later

SlashStriker1 votes

If you are full tank you have to work with your team for someone to deal damage for you. You need better thinking and gameplay experience

What do you expect to do vs Skirmisher or any hyper carry in 1v1 if you are full tank? Skirmisher will have mixed build of offensive and defensive items. You on other hand got only Defensive items. You cannot win if you got no damage therefor someone else must deal the damage for you

Polynova1 votes

I am not stating that I am expecting to win the encounter. Merely stating that surviving against an onslaught of the damage isn't something that seems to last more than a few seconds at most. Which feels wrong to me. But as I have stated elsewhere in this post, that is my own perception and could be deluded.

I am quite aware that if I build purely defense that I should not be able to deal a lot of damage. That is kind of the point of building defenses after all.

SlashStriker1 votes

So whats your point exactly? You die too quickly?

Is the hypercarry ahead? Who do you play as a tank? what items do you build and against who? Are they building to counter your build? Is it 1v1 or 5v5 that enemies are fully focused on you?

Currently the hardest champions to kill are Tom Konch and Alistar Konch got 90% health shield which means you have to kill him twice and Alistar got 70% damage reduction

Usually escaping from a hyper carry is barely possible

Talisid1 votes

I think hypercarries create team-composition diversity in organized play. The season 2-3 "Protect the Kogmaw" compositions were quite popular and an interesting break from the bog standard meta picks, basically you pick 2 tanks, a CC/zoning heavy mage and a defensive support like Janna and everybody's job is to make sure Kogmaw doesn't die.

Team composition warping picks like hypercarries create team diversity that I think is healthy for the game. I have to say I didn't even bother tuning into the LCS finals this year because I knew it was just going to be more Jhin/Cait and Nami/Karma and Syndra and Ryze and Lee and Elise and Poppy and Jayce, it was like 100% meta-picks. The only interesting pick was the Ashe+MF kill-lane.

In terms of Master Yi in particular, his damage has to be that strong to be relevant in a game that heavily punishes you for trying to get into melee range as a squishy in teamfights.

Polynova1 votes

Thank you. This is an extremely helpful comment. I still feel like, aside from comps like the one you mentioned, that the hyper carry makes it very unfun to play against. Perhaps it is fun to watch, but not to sit there trying to play and not being able to do anything. BUT, that is my personal opinion. Thanks for giving me some food for thought.

Talisid2 votes

I do understand your point that what is healthy for organized 5v5 teamplay is not necessarily good for everyone. I totally understand the frustration of playing against champions like Vayne or Tryndamere in solo queue because there's a sense of inevitability that they will eventually get out of control and win the game.

In solo queue people don't pressure the hypercarry hard enough in the early game, people don't take objectives like they should when they get an advantage, people don't tend to be able to close out games once they get an advantage. They stall out games and end up give the enemy team breathing room because they care more about their kill score and CS numbers than winning the game. Somebody randomly dies for no reason because he's trying to 1v3 and it delays you pushing down that nexus for another 60 seconds.

I think that's why, historically, hypercarries tend to get nerfed, because they're almost never relevant to LCS play but are very disruptive to solo queue. I still think they have a place in the game but maybe its too difficult to balance them properly.

Rockm Sockm1 votes

Name one tank with an actual tank build and masteries that one hyperbaric(fyi only two are receiving playtime) that dies in 2 seconds.

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