@RIOT Can you guys perhaps hire more people to work on reworks/balances?

tofutime·2/20/2015, 4:48:49 PM·115 votes·3,757 views

There's so many things on the "backburner," aren't you guys concerned about this? Last I heard the balance and rework team was a team of a number in the single digits.

Urgot changes not planned (talked about possibilities) yet however was talked about since 2012. How long do you think this game of LoL can live? Maybe 3 more years given good marketing on the pro scene? This game does not have much of a lifetime left and reworks/balances seem to take years to be addressed.

Fiora was designed by Volty and released in February 2012. It's been 3 years. There was a Riot discussion about how she needed a rework shortly after her release. I don't remember the first time I heard of a Yorick rework but it's been several years as well.

Then there are the balancing issues. Lucian remained too strong a pick throughout all of season 4 and pretty much outshined any other adc until finally they nerfed him. Now we're on the Kalista season. I don't know how long she'll be in this state but I really believe her to be unhealthy. To me, she is going to be Lucian 2.0 for season 5.

The new jungle has pushed out tank junglers for 2 months and just now do we hear news that in the next 2 patches they will touch on that.

Everything is moving at a snail's pace and it's damaging for a game's lifespan.

51 Comments

Talamare2/20/2015, 4:58:56 PM61 votes

They don't need more people, they need better people

SephAgro2/20/2015, 7:20:20 PM23 votes

Funny thing is they are trying to hire more senior level game designers as we speak.

http://www.riotgames.com/careers/25954

"Riot Games was established in 2006 by entrepreneurial gamers who believe that player-focused game development can result in great games." Riiight. Player-focused. That used to be true, but now don't you mean ESports-focused?

slippykitten2/20/2015, 7:17:08 PM21 votes

They aren't on the backburner because they don't have the manpower or resources to take care of them, they are on the backburner because they dont care about under played and under powered champs. They are LCS focused, so they are concerned very little with champions that dont fit in lcs.

OhOkYeah2/20/2015, 6:09:13 PM17 votes

skarner should be just as viable as lee sin

Konidias2/21/2015, 12:09:10 AM9 votes

Upvote.

Seriously... Quinn needs a lot of love. I main her and it's just sad having to play her in such a buggy state. I'd probably win twice as many games if she was actually not so bugged out. There have been countless threads about her many issues and yet not a single Rioter has ever replied to any of them... it's like they are just ignoring the champ completely. Why is Riot pumping out new champ after new champ when they haven't even properly fixed/balanced the ones that already exist?

All new champs should be put on hold until the old ones are fixed/visually updated/reworked. There's plenty of work to be doing to the 100+ champs already in the game.

  • Fix up some of the less mobile champs to bring them into the new world of mobility.
  • Fix bugs on existing champs and buff some champs that are seeing little play because they just can't hang with the new breed
  • Visually update the more outdated champs
  • Nerf some of the biggest trouble makers and the champs with little to no counterplay (Zed, Katarina, Lee Sin, Jarvan, Kalista)

THEN and only THEN can you work on new champs. This new champ every few weeks thing is getting overwhelming and honestly I'm not sure what players are demanding new champs be released 1-2 times per month. I think most players would agree that the current champs have enough problems that need fixed first.

Lazlow2/20/2015, 11:00:11 PM8 votes

They are way too slow. I don't know if it's because they don't want to change a lot, so it won't affect the pro scene drastically? Idk

I really don't understand why they can't give champions a little buff here and there and test the waters, even if they are getting a new kit for the mean time..

If i recall correctly, Gragas got a slight movement speed slow buff added on his Q. Was it enough to move him up tiers? Not really, but at least it was something. There are a good sum of champions that could use small number buffs over the course of a few patches to put them in a good spot. It either takes Riot forever, or it never happens.

Then you get champions who are left completley dumpstered that need large number buffs or a new kit. Look at the lowest winrate champions in the game.

Azir - Dumpstered measly 37% winrate. (Apparently) getting buffed in a few patches. Elise - Dumpstered - no word Zilean - new kit. we will see Syndra - Dumpstered on top of DFG removal. (Apparently will get her stun radius improved) Nothing said about reverting the Q nerf. Urgot - Dumpstered. Apparently up for a rework late 2015, early 2016 (lol) Ryze - Dumpstered. Awaiting changes to his kit Small talks about a skillshot being added,. No confirmation. Twitch - Dumpstered - no word Akali - Rework for her unhealthy kit when? Zac - Dumpstered - 0 reason to pick him. Needs the blobs to be better. Olaf - Dumpstered - All he needs is his armor scaling buffed. Lee Sin - lol

Keevalroy2/20/2015, 11:19:07 PM7 votes

I thought they might have needed more people communicating back and forth between community and Riot since if I remember correctly, Scruffy (pretty sure it was him) and the guys working with him apparently had NO IDEA Lee was so revolting to us. Are you only staying on Leddit? Or is something lost during the process because Lee Sin, as well as a large number of additional issues have gone unnoticed by your teams.

I wanted to apply for a QA Analyst position to provide some extra help, but...my application was denied the other night.

http://imgur.com/gallery/IWcT8Fb

rMdinQJAr62/20/2015, 10:43:02 PM7 votes

More employees = Bigger payroll Talented employees = Bigger payroll

So less employees + shitty workers = More profit$ for company

Zarxis2/20/2015, 7:58:22 PM6 votes

"B-but muh 'too many cooks' luh-logic-c."

Zendrô2/20/2015, 11:09:54 PM4 votes

They're just now doing the Taric rework when discussion started more than two years ago on the old forums...

UdoIkOSc4u2/20/2015, 5:38:34 PM4 votes

Lee win is going to give them all the necessary moneys because of lcs bigplay$

Drunk Rummate2/20/2015, 5:49:24 PM3 votes

too many cooks in the kitchen can be a problem. it's difficult to perfectly communicate a design direction and align it between many different people.

Dingding1232/20/2015, 5:43:51 PM3 votes

They need to add more meaningful elements to the game

ZarisWhiteFoot2/21/2015, 1:33:01 AM3 votes

I agree with this guy. I recall back in Season 1 and 2 that nerfs for OP champions would normally be fit in between patches, and not wait a month or longer for a HEAVILY needed nerf cough KALISTA cough. Please, place focus on those things that are just REALLY OP, i understand the little things and that takes times, but for OBVIOUS overpowered champions, please don't wait until everyone gets rekt in ranked because they refuse to play the broken champ.

Kuroi862/21/2015, 8:39:08 AM3 votes

Last I heard the balance and rework team was a team of a number in the single digits.

Too many cooks spoil the broth. Riot has been looking for new hires, as the game continues to grow in popularity, so will Riot keep expanding and bringing in more talent to help with the game.

Urgot changes not planned (talked about possibilities) yet however was talked about since 2012.

Last I heard, still not a good paper kit put together yet for him. Before they can push forward with a rework, they need something to work on first.

The new jungle has pushed out tank junglers for 2 months

Well this is news to me, haven't really had much trouble with the new jungle. Heck it's even better now that Lee Sin can't clear his own jungle, clear my jungle and kill me all without having to actually use his potions anymore. Now he actually has to friggen work for it if he tries to counter jungle me.

SmokingPuffin2/20/2015, 5:46:28 PM3 votes

Hiring more balance designers does not make for better balance. Making more balance changes tends to make balance worse. A game is a complex system and surprising things happen when you change too many things at once.

How long do you think this game of LoL can live? Maybe 3 more years given good marketing on the pro scene? This game does not have much of a lifetime left and reworks/balances seem to take years to be addressed.

It would take an absolute catastrophe for League to not be around in 5 years. League is currently bigger than WoW ever was. Do you realize how many mistakes WoW made? League has a lot of room to screw up and still be the biggest game on the planet.

Added bonus - Heroes of the Storm kinda sucks. That was Riot's biggest fear from a competition standpoint, and it turns out not to be a threat.

Then there are the balancing issues. Lucian remained too strong a pick throughout all of season 4 and pretty much outshined any other adc until finally they nerfed him.

No number of extra balance hires changes this one. He wasn't strong for lack of resources to change him. Riot intended for Lucian to be strong.

Now we're on the Kalista season. I don't know how long she'll be in this state but I really believe her to be unhealthy. To me, she is going to be Lucian 2.0 for season 5.

She's not that strong. Graves is Lucian 2.0. Graves was also Lucian 0.0, incidentally.

The new jungle has pushed out tank junglers for 2 months and just now do we hear news that in the next 2 patches they will touch on that.

Tank junglers have sucked for a lot longer than 2 months. It isn't something they can fix with systems level changes to the jungle.

Volt Cruelerz2/20/2015, 11:33:27 PM2 votes

While I will not mention the name of the game, there was once a dev named Scott. Scott was in charge of balance. Scott paid no attention to usage statistics. Scott paid no attention to outcries on the forums. One time when he did nerf a character class, he nerfed it from the most OP one in the game (seriously, we're talking about press one button and win the level, broken-OP) down to the weakest where it remained for months after. Eventually it was buffed and then nerfed again. Sometimes equipment was buffed or nerfed. All for nonsensical reasons that could never be justified by math. For a while, the game was effectively P2W despite that being the opposite of the desires they professed. He also had a serious addiction to power creep. *That *is the worst balance experience I have ever had and that is also one of the primary reasons I no longer play that game. Eventually I posted a thread asking if Scott needed help. From the sounds of it, the entire balance team was him and three other people, two of which were were on his level in the company, yet he was expected to be able to enforce balance. Restructuring it so that the other devs in other divisions didn't have power to fiddle with balance and giving him underlings would have been ideal. Merely adding more cooks to the kitchen wouldn't have helped.

A similar rule likely applies here. Adding more balance people is likely to generate an excess of ideas. You need to have one autocrat at the top enforcing their vision or it won't work. The problems that arise of course are those that arise whenever an autocrat is involved in anything.

At one point in time, I was a dev for an FPS (I'm still actually listed as such on the forums). Before that, I was a modder for that game. As a modder, I would constantly crank out mods however I saw fit and would frequently discuss balance. The moment I was brought on board though, things changed because they had to. Like it or not, the communities of games hang on the words of their devs, so if you say something you'd best be prepared to explain a dozen different ways that it's your opinion or you'd better be ready to speak for the group. Since the team seemed to want to appear monolithic and in agreement and I had superiors, I was not the one speaking for the group so I didn't speak except on rare occasions. Even within the devs, I seldom felt fully enabled to talk.

Perhaps Riot has a similar situation to mine or to Scott's. I would suspect that there likely is a problem with too many people working together on equal playing fields and not enough autocracy. That said, those at the top likely need to focus more on listening to those below them. If the balance team was restructured in that way, maybe then you could add in a couple new people, but it'd just depend.

It has always struck me as odd how slowly some people make changes. Maybe it's just the fact that I'm obsessed with spreadsheeting, but eh...

Kingsgrave2/20/2015, 5:13:08 PM2 votes

More people will make it take longer knowing Riot.

Ycara2/21/2015, 3:48:28 AM2 votes

My god, they're nerfing overpowered champs like Azir and Yasuo but not Riven??? And they nerfed those 2 really badly that they're pretty much extinct from the game. And Riven just has so much damage output, even against tanks. So far, their balancing is really bad to me.

Alaric112/21/2015, 9:27:16 AM2 votes

My God you are right. I wasn't even paying attention when suddenly YEARS went by and still so many promises unkept. Even if it takes a week to rework a champ and assuming only one champ was worked on at a time and assuming the balance team was 10 people. it would mean riot could easily have 400 man hours per rework. And yet how many have we had in the last three years? Less than 10? I don't know about you but if I was this unproductive at work I would be looking for a new job.

Jolly Rogered2/21/2015, 5:52:52 PM2 votes

Riot is losing it's "span of control" on it's own game.

It is becoming more and more apparent as the months go by. LoL becoming less fun for the average player / Serious balancing issues / Neglected champs / Favoritism with "Professional Players".

Is it because they do not have enough employees? Is it because of greed? (LCS-BIG-MONEY-BIG-PLAY$) Only time will tell when another MOBA comes along that is better and people migrate to it.

chumbler2/21/2015, 10:01:58 PM2 votes

Hiring more people doesn't guarantee things getting done better or faster, but it does provide the possibility that maybe they'll manage to hire someone competent, which is more than they've got now.

Netechma3/30/2015, 6:53:54 AM1 votes

I'm not suggesting the development team should have to do everything possible, that's what beta testers and PBE are for. I don't know that they have a team of 8 or 9 developers, but even if they do I'm not under the impression they're overwhelmed enough to warrant this topic.

Some things are always going to be considered 'broken' or Op in games. Some more so, and some more so to others. People are human, and do the best they can.

I stand by what I said throwing more people into the mix from a game players perspective because "they NEED it" is unwarranted.

Not sure what you're deep knowledge on the background sheds light on that I'm missing.
Again though, keep it up Riot, thank you for doing what you can with what you have <3

and to the author and commenter I think your constructive criticism (?) is better spent elsewhere personally, as is mine at this point.

tooomine2/21/2015, 4:32:22 PM1 votes

{quoted}

There's so many things on the "backburner," aren't you guys concerned about this? Last I heard the balance and rework team was a team of a number in the single digits.

Urgot changes not planned (talked about possibilities) yet however was talked about since 2012. How long do you think this game of LoL can live? Maybe 3 more years given good marketing on the pro scene? This game does not have much of a lifetime left and reworks/balances seem to take years to be addressed.

Fiora was designed by Volty and released in February 2012. It's been 3 years. There was a Riot discussion about how she needed a rework shortly after her release. I don't remember the first time I heard of a Yorick rework but it's been several years as well.

Then there are the balancing issues. Lucian remained too strong a pick throughout all of season 4 and pretty much outshined any other adc until finally they nerfed him. Now we're on the Kalista season. I don't know how long she'll be in this state but I really believe her to be unhealthy. To me, she is going to be Lucian 2.0 for season 5.

The new jungle has pushed out tank junglers for 2 months and just now do we hear news that in the next 2 patches they will touch on that.

Everything is moving at a snail's pace and it's damaging for a game's lifespan.

One thing to remember , Riot, Is that your game be nature has a limited life-span. I don't know if its three years, like this post suggests, but you won't be around forever, and you won't be around with immense popularity forever. Balances are important.

A Miss Fortune2/20/2015, 10:25:38 PM1 votes

I feel like every game I play I find that there is either a very overpowered and easy to play champion, or there is a very underpowered and difficult to play champion.

Llanite2/22/2015, 1:06:16 AM1 votes

More people != better work.

Try having 10 people to help you cook, doubt if you would make better stuff. I'd say they need a new program manager.

Netechma2/20/2015, 11:37:13 PM1 votes

TLDR I skimmed your post, let me say this before anything else.

Adding more people to work on a project doesn't always (and I'm keen on believing hardly ever) produce a better quality product. I would personally just like to see more progress being delivered in the form of news updates as opposed to GET THIS DONE BY _____________. I think rushed work is never good work. I think adding more people to what is probably not even a starving project is a terrible idea.

Can we please though get some *more *updates from time to time and also thanks Riot, you're awesome and produce awesome updates and are in no way not awesome thanks.

Silents4292/22/2015, 5:26:42 AM1 votes

Considering League is the most popular online game out right now. Like big time. With a still growing playerbase, I think 3 years is cutting them really friggin short.

Kowe The Ewok2/21/2015, 9:07:46 AM1 votes

Wait? Why would they need more interns?