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On Champion Design: An Open Letter to Riot

GamerAse··20 votes·4,840 views

The following is a personal opinion article, meant as constructive criticism on a game I deeply enjoy.

First off, let me begin by saying that I started playing this game around the time that Cassiopeia was released, then took a long pause and only started playing again in Season 4. As such, I wasn't here for a long interval of time when many of the current champions were released. Nevertheless, I would like to offer my personal view on Riot's champion design and how I think that it is hindering the game and stagnating its natural evolution.

When I started playing League of Legends, the meta was constantly changing. We would see both teams with junglers and teams without junglers. We would see many champions being played in innovative ways that the original designers probably never thought of. Believe it or not, triple lanes were a thing, once upon a time. Back then, there was little specialization in champions, and even though there weren't many items (I still believe there are too little items, but that is an opinion I will save for another time), people still found ways to think outside the box. Summoner spells that were thought as subpar (more talk about those in the future, I hope) were utylized in gimmicky, but ultimately functional, builds.

There is probably a lesson to be learned from the old Phreak videos, where the recurring joke was that every character was played as a jungler, built trinity force and dealt tons of damage. While it was mostly a joke, the game back then allowed for some interesting innovations, especially when it came to jungling (since jungling was viable for so many champions).

Nowadays, whenever I read your new champion insight blog posts, I see the tendency to define and cement a champion's role right from conception. You seem to have adopted the "1 - 1 - adc + support - jungler" meta and started designing solely for this. Where are the gambles, the champions that don't fit any of the molds of the meta, the innovations? Will LoL be forever defined and stagnate in this meta? You have to understand, if you don't give your players the tools needed to break the mold, they will never leave the zone of comfort.

But I am getting ahead of myself. Let's analyze some of the more recent posts on champion's insights and reveals.

Tristana [...] we decided to cement Tristana as a daredevil reset carry who gets bonuses from (rocket) jumping into fights while removing some of the safe strength she had in her kit.

"Cemented as a carry". You no longer want to allow AP Tristana? Why do you feel the need to define how a champion should be played?

Xerath Finally, the pattern of “use my ultimate to quickly take down an enemy” is a very common pattern in our mage design.

It's good that you want to make a champion more unique, but I feel there's one inherent flaw here: you are trying to design a mage, instead of just creating a character whose kit feels good to play. You start yb saying "I want to make a mage" and set barriers to your own design from the get-go. I feel this approach is detrimental to dynamic, creative design.

Gnar Gnar's champion reveal has two sections: Top Lane and Team Fights. Why would you feel the need to emphasize how he plays in top lane? And why not in jungle, bottom lane or middle lane?

Azir Azir is a mage[...] *To go for the kill, start off with Arise! and Shifting Sands to position Azir behind his opponent. From there, Emperor’s Divide drives the foe deep into Azir’s side of the map. Pushed so far into Azir’s territory, the opposing champ’s sure to meet their end at a spear’s tip. If offense proves temporarily unwise, Azir’s ult provides safe passage from a fight, building a wall between Azir and his pursuers. *

While I like that Azir emphasizes a slightly different playstyle, you still find the need to define him as a mage and telling us how to play him. Did you ever think about giving him some AD scaling? Maybe his minions' attacks? If not, why?

Kalista Kalista is a marksman[...] In lane, Kalista follows the familiar marksman pattern of farm and harass with one important difference: Martial Poise makes kiting part and parcel of her kit. With it, Kalista can reposition after every basic attack, hopping in and out of danger to attack opponents and gain superior positioning.

Kalista is a marksman. Don't even try to play her as anything else as an ADC. You even say she "follows a familiar pattern", other than her kiting abilities. You are giving us another hero to use, but one we have to play as you dictate it should be played.

RekSai *Rek’Sai is a powerful and mobile monster well suited to the jungle of Summoner’s Rift. Clever use of her tunnels gives Rek’Sai unparalleled mobility through her jungle and into the enemy’s domain. Once there, she works best counter-jungling her opponent into obscurity before ganking enemy laners from the unconventional angles her tunnels provide. *

Pretty much all of Rek'Sai's champion reveal is about jungling. You emphasize how you want the champion to be played instead of how her kit is fun to use, has great synergy or opens up cool ways to combo with your teammates. I consider it a good example on how *not *to design a champion.

Braum Braum is a strong and resilient melee support[...]

I have nothing else to add.

Bard *Bard is League’s first support to gain advantages solely from moving around Summoner’s Rift. *

I am noticing a pattern, here. But what actually shocked me was something else in this reveal, written about another champion.

Alistar *We’ve looked at the idea of roaming supports before. Alistar was one, for a while, before he roamed so well you guys transitioned him into a death-dealing jungler thanks to his nigh on unstoppable W+Q combo and extreme tower diving capabilities. So we made changes, nerfed his extra monster damage, and put him back in his traditional support pants. *

Let me see if I understood this one. You are telling us that you had to take a champion away from us because we were playing it in a different way than you intended us to? You are assuming to stifle emergent gameplay? I just want you to understand that what you said up there sounds absolutely terrible by any of the design standards I know.

Sion Old Sion had countless problems: he was a mage with an ax, he’d end up with two redundant abilities regardless of how he built [...]. *More than anything, old Sion was just confused with no clear sense of identity. Some of his abilities worked with attack damage, some with ability power, and he sort of functioned as a tank[...] *

I want you to please take a long, thoughtful look at this last one, because this sums up everything that I personally believe is wrong with LoL's current champion design. Riot, you have an amazing advantage over your closest competitor (DotA) when it comes to champion design. Your AD and AP system allows for casters as well as auto-attackers to grow consistently in power throughout the game. You are free to give your champions three main ways to scale in power: AD, AP and tankability. And yet you choose to design champions who will always benefit from only one of those.

Remember the old days of Ezreal and Kennen? People found ways to play an AP char as a carry. It was beautiful emergent gameplay.

Master Yi is another example. He was a great late-game AD champion, but he could be played AP fairly competently, because his kit was ambiguous enough to allow him to gain power from both AD and AP.

Nowadays, we get champions that are pre-fitted into a role of the current meta, and I find that it makes the game less fun. There's little reason to innovate, and it just becomes a race to see who does better in identically-composed lanes. Most champions played professionally compose... what, 30%, maybe 40% of the roster (I don't have the exact numbers for this, but there are some champions who get played or banned every game, while others never even see the light of day)? Not that there's anyhting wrong with that, but I dare believe it could be so much more.

League of Legends was dynamic and full of surprises once upon a time. I long for those times, but I think there's still the potential to make this game fresh and surprising once again.

101 Comments

SmokingPuffin11 votes

When I started playing League of Legends, the meta was constantly changing. We would see both teams with junglers and teams without junglers. We would see many champions being played in innovative ways that the original designers probably never thought of. Believe it or not, triple lanes were a thing, once upon a time.

This is only because the game was not being seriously studied at the time.

If you take the current pro players, and give them the game from season 1, you'll find they will tunnel on a very narrow meta.

GamerAse9 votes

I will have to disagree on this one. I believe it was because heroes lacked specialization. Corki didn't fully scale off of AD. Neither did Ezreal or Kog'Maw, and those were probably the most popular carries before we started getting champs like Caytlin and Graves, who were more specialized in their roles.

League of Legends back then eventually turned into a game of bruisers, with the introduction of Riven, Shyvanna, Lee Sin and Jarvan. Tanky DPS was the way to go for a while, since those champions were so good at scaling off of a single attribute. Eventually, I am guessing, it all barrelled down from there.

SmokingPuffin7 votes

I will have to disagree on this one. I believe it was because heroes lacked specialization. Corki didn't fully scale off of AD. Neither did Ezreal or Kog'Maw, and those were probably the most popular carries before we started getting champs like Caytlin and Graves, who were more specialized in their roles.

I don't understand how any of this is disagreeing with my statement. The season 1 game was horribly balanced. Go back and look at Janna or Kassadin from the time. Tell me how they're not permaban. Compare Tristana to the other ADCs in the 2009 list of champions. She's insanely OP; it's just that we weren't good enough to realize it yet.

The meta felt diverse because we were awful at the game. Ashe mid was thought to be a good idea. We weren't entirely sure jungling was worth, because two champs sharing farm in the top lane could pressure the tower better. This should give you some clue how bad we were.

League of Legends back then eventually turned into a game of bruisers, with the introduction of Riven, Shyvanna, Lee Sin and Jarvan. Tanky DPS was the way to go for a while, since those champions were so good at scaling off of a single attribute. Eventually, I am guessing, it all barrelled down from there.

League of Bruisers was itself a reaction to a flaw in the core game. We have Xin Zhao and his ball of stats friends because the original melee champions were largely pointless.

GamerAse4 votes

The meta felt diverse because we were awful at the game

Considering the items we had at our disposal, the diminute amount of gap closers and the scarcity of hard CC, having a gap closer or any sort of stun was much more valuable at the time. Kennen AD had a stun of sorts and could speed up relatively well. Paired with someone like Taric or Janna, it would be hard for anyone to get out of the perma stun / knock.

I agree that Tristana was probably overlooked, but I can't remember her ratios / damage on her DOT at the time.

Champion Skin4 votes

Her ratios? Are we talking about AP tristana? Since wasn't Tristana from the age of all abilites scale with AP (or nothing) so she only had AP ratios and her attack speed steroid which doesn't scale with anything

Saianna2 votes

{quoted}

The meta felt diverse because we were awful at the game.

I agree with you. But i also agree with OP. Creating 1 and 1 only route champion can be built isn't what I'd call "diveristy". Riot should create & rework champions with different playstyles in mind. For example Cassiopeia. She used to be mostly DoT champion and if someone wanted to he could have build her for twin-fang machine gun. Right now no twin-fang = no Cassio. 1 build, play or die.

If i had a chance i'd play s1 LoL. We've made silly builds, weird tactics... Now? Sigh.. copy-paste builds, formations, tactics.

Selvos7 votes

I'm a bit late to the party, but I'll throw in my 2 cents as well. I'm sure most people have said something similar already, so read at your own peril.

TL;DR: Meta is reinforced to provide better experience for new players and casual spectators. Most changes are small to prevent community backlash and to preserve integrity of competitive circuit. Fixed meta and stable competitive circuit make it easier to cement League as a legitimate sport/esport.

Long answer:

  • Riot has a vested interest in trying to standardize key gameplay elements in League. The fact that the meta exists makes it easier for spectators who might not be active or skilled players to understand what is going on in a game. The fact that they don't understand why the meta exists isn't relevant for the ability to enjoy watching a game. This is important because Riot actively seeks to legitimize League as an esport (or sport, depending on who you ask), instead of just presenting it as a competition. They are seeking to establish a paradigm that rarely changes and if it does, then only in ways that are simple to understand such as swapping top and bot lanes against a stronger 2v2 matchup - and even this was discouraged by changes to the towers themselves. By seeking to remove creative strategies like the old version of duo jungling (instead of jungle-buddy system where one solo laner abandons lane vs a lane swap), roaming and non-standard lane compositions, League's early game is effectively standardized. One team will usually come out ahead from the early game, and it's easier for spectators to follow how and why the mid game will focus around the winning team pressing their advantage with the real strengths their champions have. Most games end around the mid game or early late game, so late game being more swingy is rarely an issue in professional league games. Key point: Standardized gameplay is easier for spectators to follow, and easier for newer players to learn. They don't need to understand why the game is played that way to enjoy it as long as the game is actively designed to work best that way.

  • League approaches patching differently than Dota does, preferring to maintain the integrity of the weekly LCS games. DotA often has few huge balance patches where nearly every hero receives changes, and more often than not those changes are buffs. Only the truly overpowered are nerfed in DotA, and even then they usually get some buffs to compensate (dark seer being largely the exception with his vacuum cd nerfs). League has far fewer changes at a time, but changes are made more often. The big element that holds back dota - style massive changes is that League doesn't have a "stable/newest" patch split, and Patches are rolled onto the competitive circuits as quickly as possible - keeping in mind parity between teams having played the same number of games before the new patch hits. This also preserves parity between the games the pros play and the games the rest of us play. DotA only keeps up parity in Captains Mode, where certain heroes are disabled for months at a time until they've been tested enough and Mr. FrozenAmphibian is happy with their balance. Key point: League prioritizes parity between pro and casual games. Pro games shouldn't drastically change quickly, because it can disrupt integrity of competitive circuit. Thus, casual games don't change drastically either.

  • League is and has been trying to distance itself from Dota since around season 2 or so when the meta was beginning to cement itself. There are many reasons why Riot would want this to happen, and I won't speculate on which ones are correct. That being said, League started to create its own identity, trying to shed the idea that a team would only have to rely on one late game ADC to close out the game. Instead, many roles were changed so that they couldn't solo the entire enemy team no matter how much ahead they were. Teams essentially have to work together to some degree to close out a game unless there is a huge gap between player skill on the two teams. In DotA, many carries are designed in a way to allow them to 1v5 the enemy team or take out the entire enemy base quickly if they are ahead (Anti-mage, Void, Medusa, Terrorblade, Tiny, Gyro, Naga, Lycan, CK, etc). This means that the design space for League champions is inherently smaller than it is for Dota heroes. League champions are designed according to a "late game fantasy" of what the champion should be able to do, and balanced according to that ideal. This further limits the potential of the secondary roles of champion, because of the fear that there could be significant power creep if a champion is able to fulfill their two intended roles at the same time through some funky itemization. Many players would see this as a strength, because alternative build options can often be fun, but it's also a nightmare for the balance team to work with. The prime example of this are the champions who were mainly considered supports when the changes to supports hit. In general, support champions lost damage and gained scaling utility (for instance, Janna could no longer clear a creep wave at lvl 6 with one tornado, but her shield got a scaling AD buff). This was because supports started gaining a lot more gold than previously, and could build items instead of just buying wards. The fear was that supports would be far too strong later on if they could retain their damage ratios, and wouldn't really be supports but rather secondary mages or bruisers. This had the adverse effect of effectively nerfing all the existing supports, pushing many mid lane staples to the support role. The most prominent of these would be Annie, who was not considered a support before the support changes around season 3. Key point: The removal of many secondary build paths was done to promote/force the game toward late game teamwork instead of trying to establish a strong carry or semi-carry who could single handedly close out the game. Individual champions matter less, but grouped champions matter more.

  • By designing champions for specific roles, the design teams have a clear frame to work with, making the process easier on them. The individual champions are what attracts people to play these games in the first place. In general the communities around these types of games are very off-putting, so the main thing keeping the players playing are the character they can play as. Riot puts a big emphasis on visual design largely for this reason. The gameplay designers work with an existing image of what the character should be able to do, so they disregard themes that don't make sense based on the visual design of the champion. That's why you don't see Kalista with AP ratios on her abilities. That's also partly why Yi's and Rengar's crazy AP builds were nerfed. Visually they don't fit the image of mages using arcane artifacts to enhance their abilities (the other reason being balance issues - AP rango was pretty crazy). While these kinds of alternative builds can be fun for more experienced players, they challenge the key identity of the champions in question. When the identity of a champion is challenged, then people who liked that champion for the visuals might be put off from playing that champion. Imagine if Ahri was changed so that she could be played in the ADC role for instance. Ahri's key identity is being a beguiling mage/assassin. If she suddenly starts to tear buildings apart with tiny projectiles while her huge abilities do almost no damage, then many players or spectators can be confused about what's going on. Same for AP Yi. Why is a wuju samurai doing almost no damage when he swings his sword, but suddenly bursts for a huge amount when he disappears? Why does he just stand in the middle of a teamfight while being nigh unkillable due to his meditate self-heal? Visually the champion stops making sense when you build him as AP. When the AP build became the dominant one on him, he was changed to preserve his identity. Key point: Champion design focuses on establishing the visual identity of champions and their ideal late game "fantasy". If a secondary build is stronger than the primary one, then this identity can be challenged. If a champion looks like a mage but is a warrior, then players who don't know that will be disappointed when they purchase that champion, leading to a worse customer experience. Visual design is important, because it sells champions and makes the $$$ in a F2P game designed around purchasable characters.

That's all the points I wanted to make. They might give you perspective on why things were changed. That being said, I personally agree with many of the points you wanted to make. I also enjoyed old league (season 2 - season 3, and a bit of season 4) more than new league. The rest of this post is going to be a rant about the things I don't like. Go ahead and skip if you don't want to see the tantrum.

  • I think that champions who are designed primarily for one role are bad design in general.
  • I also think that reinforcing the meta by changing stable elements on the map (like top lane turrets being different from bot lane turrets) is silly.
  • I would like to see actual roaming supports and trilanes being viable.
  • I'd like to see the return of running 3 solo laners and duo junglers being viable again.
  • I would like to see the support champions in particular having powerful alternative roles they could be played in.
  • I would like to see more variety and strategy in picks and bans, and more flex-picks who could be used to trick an opponent into thinking about the wrong lane matchups.
  • I would like to see real melee carries and not just assassins.
  • I would like to see revive being reintroduced as a useful summoner spell.
  • I would like to see flash being removed from the game completely.
  • I would like to see the decline of the mobility creep.
  • I would like to see more powerful point-and-click CC or instant CC to counter mobility.
  • I think resourceless champions in general are bad design, and would like to see those champions designed around a resource, but given more power to compensate.
GamerAse1 votes

Mr. FrozenAmphibian

That gave me a good chuckle :D

Standardized gameplay is easier for spectators to follow, and easier for newer players to learn. They don't need to understand why the game is played that way to enjoy it as long as the game is actively designed to work best that way.

It's the easiest way to make sure that the most people can enjoy the game with as little effort / dedication as possible from the viewer, but it also imposes a ceiling on how more dedicated players can discuss viable options. Granted that those are a minority, sure, so from a business perspective what they do makes sense.

League prioritizes parity between pro and casual games. Pro games shouldn't drastically change quickly, because it can disrupt integrity of competitive circuit. Thus, casual games don't change drastically either.

I think this boils down as how we want to view innovation. If, in the middle of the circuit, a team started using a new champion that no one bothered to use and was considered very strong, would they be viewed as cheap or innovative? Do we want to reward just execution but not creativity? I believe people nowadays are quick to get angered when something deviates from the norm. BAck in the day, when top overpushing and invading golems became a thing, I remember that it caused quite the uproar: some people thought "this is completely broken!", but the vast majority of players, I think, welcomed the change. Since then, LoL became much more standardized, and anything different is viewed as something that must be shut down. Also, picks and bans phase exist for this reason as well. If the enemy team didn't like how you played your hero on game 1, they can ban it on games 2 and 3.

The removal of many secondary build paths was done to promote/force the game toward late game teamwork instead of trying to establish a strong carry or semi-carry who could single handedly close out the game. Individual champions matter less, but grouped champions matter more.

That's why we can see teams of DotA play 4 supports + 1 carry, sure, but itemization also plays a huge part on it. A huge amount of supports in DotA can semi-carry given enough gold and the right items (Skeleton/Wraith King and Mirana alternate between the role of carry, support or roamer quite often). But at the same time, it is perfectly possible and viable (and it's done quite often) to see DotA teams with no hard carries, who just take 5 really strong team fighters to win the game.

Champion design focuses on establishing the visual identity of champions and their ideal late game "fantasy". If a secondary build is stronger than the primary one, then this identity can be challenged. If a champion looks like a mage but is a warrior, then players who don't know that will be disappointed when they purchase that champion, leading to a worse customer experience. Visual design is important, because it sells champions and makes the $$$ in a F2P game designed around purchasable characters.

While I understand the point that you are trying to make, and yes, it would make sense for it to be this way, that is not what happens in League of Legends. Take Katarina for example. Agile assassin wielding two huge blades. Mainly builds AP. Zac is a blob who supposedly could be the perfect weapon since he adapts. Mainly build as a tanky ap. Ezreal shoots beams out of an arcane pulse-thingy, but he mostly gets his power from swords (AD). I really don't think Riot care that much about making power sources a coherent thing in terms of aesthetics.

I also think that reinforcing the meta by changing stable elements on the map (like top lane turrets being different from bot lane turrets) is silly.

This is the epitome of bad design. You want your rules to be as generalistic as possible. What is true for A should also be true for B. Riot has, over the years, created small exceptions to their own rules who just hinder their design (a rant for another post!), and they become ever more common.

I would like to see revive being reintroduced as a useful summoner spell. I would like to see flash being removed from the game completely.

Summoner spells and the removal of what Riot considers to be the "useless" spells is a little unnerving as far as I am concerned. It's the same as removing items that they feel are redundant or useless. As for Flash, I hated it for years, but right now I could go either way. Just make other spells equally good (which is nigh-impossible), give champions 2 summoner spells PLUS flash, if you really must, or, well, remove it altogether. But flash is core to the identity of LoL nowadays, so we'll see.

I think resourceless champions in general are bad design, and would like to see those champions designed around a resource, but given more power to compensate.

Another deviation from core design rules. We have mana, resourceless heroes, energy heroes, fury/ferocity heroes... which makes items that give mana useless for a vast array of champions. This is awful design.

Thank you for your comprehensive post, I really enjoyed reading it!

Selvos1 votes

That gave me a good chuckle :D

Can't invoke his name out in public. I'd get flogged. That being said, the man is a genius and very good at what he does.

It's the easiest way to make sure that the most people can enjoy the game with as little effort / dedication as possible from the viewer, but it also imposes a ceiling on how more dedicated players can discuss viable options. Granted that those are a minority, sure, so from a business perspective what they do makes sense.

Not necessarily. It establishes a set norm that is designed to be stronger than anything else. Nothing is really stopping you from trying to step outside that norm if you think you can gain the advantage. I get why many people don't like standardized gameplay (myself included) - as lanes really should represent locations and not roles as they do now. There's been a shift away from that with utility AP tops and with mid being a toss-up between mages, assassins and utility APs (Mostly Lulu, Ori and Zilean). Still, I would like more viable options happen. ADC mid was fun while it lasted.

I think this boils down as how we want to view innovation. If, in the middle of the circuit, a team started using a new champion that no one bothered to use and was considered very strong, would they be viewed as cheap or innovative?

It's a case of "do we avoid Pudge + Chen TI3 fountain hook shenanigans from taking place in a tournament (semi) finals?" vs "do we want to encourage diversity and innovation if a team finds something else that works?". So far I don't have an example to give where innovation is valued more highly. I can understand why from a spectator point of view. Na'Vi stealing a spot in TI3 finals was funny, but you have to admit it felt a bit cheap. If the team was less popular, there would have been more negativity about it in the community.

Also, picks and bans phase exist for this reason as well. If the enemy team didn't like how you played your hero on game 1, they can ban it on games 2 and 3.

The problems arise when the LCS circuit is essentially an extended round robin of best of 1s. Could be weeks before you play that team again, and they might have moved to something else. League balance is a different beast from DotA balance largely because of this reason.

That's why we can see teams of DotA play 4 supports + 1 carry, sure, but itemization also plays a huge part on it. A huge amount of supports in DotA can semi-carry given enough gold and the right items (Skeleton/Wraith King and Mirana alternate between the role of carry, support or roamer quite often). But at the same time, it is perfectly possible and viable (and it's done quite often) to see DotA teams with no hard carries, who just take 5 really strong team fighters to win the game.

You generally don't see that many all-in push strats with 0 carry potential and all teamfighting abilities these days in dota. There's usually at least a Lycan, CK, or Tiny there in case the game goes a bit longer. Sure, the plan isn't to get that carry fed, but the option still exists. I do remember running the 10-min all-in push strats myself with my mates, and league used to have something similar with old Heimer. You might find a video if you google CLG.EU vs push team or something similar.

In the case of Mirana, she's an extreme flex pick. You can run her as roaming or tri-lane support. You can run her as a semi-carry mid. You can run her as an initiator in the offlane. You can run her as a semi-carry tri-lane farmer. I think you can do some crazy cliff farming jungle shenanigans with her as well if you really want to. She can fill multiple roles in a team, and go to nearly all the locations while staying relevant. Windranger used to have a similar status where she could be ran as mid, offlane, carry with maelstrom + aghs, or support. While I love that sort of flexibility, league offers no real tools to counter it in bans and picks. It would lead to further stagnation if league had a flex pick as potent as Mirana or Windranger. That, or an overhaul of the pick/ban phase. League doesn't want to be Dota, though. They want their own identity, and they have established that by now. League is bigger than DotA 2. League has 3 bans per side, and bans are selected before picks. Period.

While we're on the topic of visual design: Bring back the only king that matters!

While I understand the point that you are trying to make, and yes, it would make sense for it to be this way, that is not what happens in League of Legends.

Well, I prefer to think that the exception reinforces the rule. I'm sure there are more visual designs that make better sense than there are ones that don't make sense from an itemization point of view.

Take Katarina for example. Agile assassin wielding two huge blades. Mainly builds AP.

She also teleports around her opponents and has infinite knives to throw. Kat also used to have AD ratios on her abilities and early on was sometimes played as a potent hybrid DPS. Her teleport is named after a move from an anime show. I get what you're saying, but she does retain a magician aspect to her design IMO. Full AP Kat is just a build that was so popular it established Kat as an AP champion.

Zac is a blob who supposedly could be the perfect weapon since he adapts. Mainly build as a tanky ap.

Zac is a crazy science experiment who grows with higher health and diminishes with lower health. I think his build-path represents what he's supposed to do very well. We can agree to disagree.

Ezreal shoots beams out of an arcane pulse-thingy, but he mostly gets his power from swords (AD).

To be honest, Ezreal was among the first champions designed and his design used to be all over the place. Ezreal used to be better in the AP role, but was changed to fit AD better due to balance. You do have an extremely valid point here. The primary identity of Ezreal is overshadowed by his secondary one from a visual point of view. Still, AP Ezreal does remain a thing, and AD Ezreal is in a very weak spot right now. I personally see more AP Ez than I do AD Ez in my games.

I'm not going to comment on the bits about my ranting. I'd just get mad and be generally insufferable. Good to see other people agree with me, though.

Thank you for your comprehensive post, I really enjoyed reading it!

Thanks for your OP! I enjoyed it enough to comment with a very long post. There's been some good discussion here.

GamerAse2 votes

ADC mid was fun while it lasted.

It was glorious to watch. God bless the Koreans.

I can understand why from a spectator point of view. Na'Vi stealing a spot in TI3 finals was funny, but you have to admit it felt a bit cheap. If the team was less popular, there would have been more negativity about it in the community.

I give Na'vi full credit for that, for a few reasons:

  • Chen + Pudge was a known feature at the time, and you only need to ban one of them to stop the cheese;
  • No one used Pudge in the pro scene but [redacted] at the time, while in pubs Pudge was one of the most feared heroes. I loved seeing it wreck house in pros when Na'vi crashed the scene.
  • Chen as played by [redacted #2] is really strong in almost any scenario, and if I were facing Na'vi I would NEVER let them pick it, even if there was no Puck or Pudge on the team.
  • Chen + Pudge was a HUGE RISK if hook failed, I think it matched the reward pretty well. It got fixed, though, but I still think it was fun while it lasted. Granted, it was annoying for the guy who got hooked and highly frustrating. I'm not surprised it got removed.
  • Skarner Ult + Teleport + Cleanse was much worse in my opinion, seeing as it didn't require any skill and didn't have a lot of drawbacks (it meant you had your summoner spells taken, but that's it).

The problems arise when the LCS circuit is essentially an extended round robin of best of 1s. Could be weeks before you play that team again, and they might have moved to something else. League balance is a different beast from DotA balance largely because of this reason.

This is a terrible implementation of a league system. I guess they are trying to emulate real sports leagues, but really... just... no.

In the case of Mirana, she's an extreme flex pick. You can run her as roaming or tri-lane support. You can run her as a semi-carry mid. You can run her as an initiator in the offlane. You can run her as a semi-carry tri-lane farmer. I think you can do some crazy cliff farming jungle shenanigans with her as well if you really want to. She can fill multiple roles in a team, and go to nearly all the locations while staying relevant.

It's also very limiting in LoL that you have to select your Masteries and Runes previous to the game starting, which means you can't adapt as much. If you already specced support, it's going to be extra hard to go carry. In DotA (since we are drawing this parallel) you don't have that problem.

While we're on the topic of visual design: Bring back the only king that matters!

PREACH IT!!!!

Zac is a crazy science experiment who grows with higher health and diminishes with lower health. I think his build-path represents what he's supposed to do very well. We can agree to disagree.

Fair enough. I was having a talk with a friend yesterday, and he mentioned how, thematically, it would make sense for Zac to be able to adapt to any role (given his background), a bit like what they tried to do with Viktor, I guess? Glorious evolution, stressing on the evolution part and adapting to your surroundings.

I'm not going to comment on the bits about my ranting. I'd just get mad and be generally insufferable. Good to see other people agree with me, though.

We love this game. Love leads to passion. Passion leads to anger. Anger can lead to awesome discussions!

doublelift fg5 votes

I heard that murica was the country of freedom, good thing that meta enforcing doesn't exist oh wait.

Remember when we could take mele carry instead of ranged carry? me neither

GamerAse3 votes

YES! Exactly! I was going to mention that but I thought that the post was already too long. Melee carries have never been a problem in other MOBAs, so why would they pose a problem in League of Legends? Riot could amke this happen, I'm sure.

The way that Jayce, Quinn, Gnar, Nidalee and Elise work makes me think (hope!) that Riot is testing the waters to introduce a fully melee carry. An actual carry, not a bruiser, or fighter, or whatever you want to call it. It would need reliable defenses or ways to get out of harm's way, but it is an extremely interesting concept if the "danger vs reward" aspect is implemented right.

It would be a risk, but I believe it would be a risk that is worth taking.

doublelift fg2 votes

People well tell you that ranged one can take turet safer but that's false. The real reasons is that ranged one are extremely overpowered in early game. Everyone, and people doesn't know it because they fight each other in the botlane. But if you were tryndamere bot against caitlyn you don't stand a chance. she has the same AD as you but with 500 bonus range, mobility and cc

GamerAse1 votes

Being melee in lane does put you at a disadvantage in conventional laning, such as is the meta.

In 2v2, you are going to be harassed to no end by the ranged carry. You would need to either:

  • Have a way to close the gap and inflict some serious hurt, possibly with a close range disable thrown in for good emasure so you punish careless ranged champions;
  • Have some ability to mitigate or avoid damage, maybe even reflect some damage back to the source;
  • Make it really worth your while to farm in lane, for example by giving you extra gold per creep. You may be harassed, but every creep you get is worth to you more than the creeps the ranged carry kills.

Ultimately, make them suffer for trying to harass you, or at least make it so that it takes skill to harass you. As long as the champion is properly designed, I see no reason for a melee carry to be less viable than a ranged one.

doublelift fg2 votes

1- If you close the gap they will just walk off and most of them have mobility 2-unfortunatly no mele carry can do this, only tryndamere can come to my heal 3-well gangplank can do that

SmokingPuffin3 votes

{quoted}

YES! Exactly! I was going to mention that but I thought that the post was already too long. Melee carries have never been a problem in other MOBAs, so why would they pose a problem in League of Legends? Riot could amke this happen, I'm sure.

There are basic mechanical reasons why LoL is different than other games on this topic. In DotA, turn rates are an effective counter to kiting, which is the core reason why ranged carries don't dominate that game. In Smite, basic attacks are skillshots, which results in ranged carries having higher miss rates than melee carries.

In LoL it is extremely challenging to make a melee carry that is simultaneously balanced in 1v1 and 5v5 context. Most of the melee carry designs in LoL end up as dedicated split pushers, because in order for a melee carry to be any good in a risky 5v5 context, they become OP as heck in the less risky 1v1 context. In order to make it work even partially, you have to do the kinds of gymnastics CertainlyT did with Yasuo, and I still wouldn't call that a full success.

It would be a risk, but I believe it would be a risk that is worth taking.

I think you're overrating new and different. As we've seen with Kalista and Yasuo, new and different quickly loses its shine. What starts as "wow, this is totally different than anything I've seen in League before" becomes "omg nerf this stupid champion" within weeks.

GamerAse3 votes

I will agree that turn rates make kiting way more difficult, but I don't believe they are the core why ranged heroes don't dominate DotA. First, it is my firm belief that items play a huge part on that. Secondly, most successful melee carries in DotA have great ways to move around and generally close the gap to their ranged enemies either by blinking, jumping or disabling them, while ranged carries are normally very vulnerabe and tend to lack either disables or a way to reliably escape. It also doesn't help when you can miss by attacking uphill with ranged attacks, but that's mostly situational.

In LoL it is extremely challenging to make a melee carry that is simultaneously balanced in 1v1 and 5v5 context. Most of the melee carry designs in LoL end up as dedicated split pushers, because in order for a melee carry to be any good in a risky 5v5 context, they become OP as heck in the less risky 1v1 context. In order to make it work even partially, you have to do the kinds of gymnastics CertainlyT did with Yasuo, and I still wouldn't call that a full success.

I couldn't agree more with every single word there. I like that, for example, in DotA you have Faceless Void who can become a powerhouse on 1v1 given enough gold and experience, but he also has a great way to set up teamfights. He can royally screw up his own team, though, and the ult has a fairly large cooldown. But that's just an example.

I think you're overrating new and different. As we've seen with Kalista and Yasuo, new and different quickly loses its shine. What starts as "wow, this is totally different than anything I've seen in League before" becomes "omg nerf this stupid champion" within weeks.

I can honestly say that, while I haven't played Yasuo that much, he is the only champion that feels "different" to me in the whole roster. Kalista... not so much. And I agree that those "innovations" get stale quickly, but what I wish to see is innovation in the meta and in the way we build our champions, not in singular mechanics.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

First, it is my firm belief that items play a huge part on that.

It's certainly true that items are more important in DotA than LoL. However, if you ported all the carry items into LoL, you'd find that ranged carries get even more value out of BKB, Butterfly, or Manta than melee carries do.

Secondly, most successful melee carries in DotA have great ways to move around and generally close the gap to their ranged enemies either by blinking, jumping or disabling them, while ranged carries are normally very vulnerabe and tend to lack either disables or a way to reliably escape.

Turn rates matter a lot. Miss Fortune, though generally a pretty weak carry, is still vastly better than Jax for the job, even though he has a dash on a short cooldown and a strong CC. In DotA, this wouldn't be anywhere close to true, primarily because turn rates.

I'm not so sure that DotA carries really tend to be less safe than their LoL equivalents. Let me give some comparisons based on similarity of kit. Mirana and Drow Ranger are both safer than Ashe. Gyrocopter is less safe than Corki. Luna seems about as safe as Sivir. Morphling is absurdly safe and has no analogous LoL champs. Shadow Fiend is food and has no analogous LoL champs. I don't really see a general trend here.

It is worth mentioning that DotA carries can take a ton more punishment than League ones can -- as you buy agility, that scales your defense as well as your offense. Of course, you have to be able to take more pain, because targeted CC chains are everywhere and you're going to get focused.

what I wish to see is innovation in the meta and in the way we build our champions, not in singular mechanics.

Isn't this on the community, and not the developers? For example, there's this new AD Fizz thing. That totally could have been a thing before, but we didn't discover it until we were forced to figure out something new because AP Fizz got rekt.

On a similar note, we should have been playing 2v1 lanes way back in season 2. For many team comps, it was clearly the correct way to play in hindsight. Why didn't we? Doesn't seem like Riot's fault.

Champion Skin3 votes

Ehh... the things that made AD fizz good (well actually it is more like on-hit Fizz then actually AD though)

First the change to his W made attack speed much better on Fizz (making attack speed and on-hit builds a lot better)

Second ult now increase his damage by 20% and this also works with things like BotRK on-hit and activate (and sheen proc damage is also increased)

And BotRK just works really well with his changed W... with it dealing % of missing health each hit and BotRK doing % of current health means that the on-hit damage is rather high regardless of if you are on low health or not (And BotRK also gives attack speed which enables Fizz to get in more attacks which increase the effectiveness of the on-hit damage and the life steal gives Fizz some sustain in lane)

SmokingPuffin3 votes

I agree that the rework was a net buff to AD Fizz, but it wasn't so large a buff that the build wasn't worth considering before. This new playstyle is more of a mindset change than a math change.

If you're not comfortable with this specific example, which I agree is debabtable, I can think of many previous cases where it took us way too long to figure something out:

  • Alistar top
  • Alistar jungle
  • AP Tryndamere
  • Ezreal at all
  • Blue Ezreal
  • Bruiser Evelynn
  • Bruiser Nidalee
  • Hecarim top (this is just happening now actually)

There's probably two dozen more cases of playstyles just waiting for people to find them. The community really doesn't explore the game as much as you'd expect from such a large community.

GamerAse3 votes

When we started playing nidalee like Riot didn't want us to, they changed her. When Alistair wasn't being played as intended, they changed him as well. Evelynn as well.

On a similar note, we should have been playing 2v1 lanes way back in season 2. For many team comps, it was clearly the correct way to play in hindsight. Why didn't we? Doesn't seem like Riot's fault.

It's not their fault, but instead of them encouraging us to discover new things, they want us to play the game their way. Which is fine, I guess, I just don't like it personally.

It's true we sometimes take a long time to figure things out, but Riot doesn't help the process, on the contrary.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

Certainly Riot puts a stop to some of the inventive play patterns. I don't see how they could not, though. Sometimes the inventive play pattern is just plain broken, and supporting it in the game makes the game worse.

GamerAse1 votes

Certainly, but there is a difference between nerfing / balancing something and outright making it unviable and removing it from the game. They can leave champion paths viable (adjust ratios, cooldowns, items) instead of just banning viable, alternative builds that they don't want to see in the game.

Of course it's their game, and they know what they want to do with it, but how much should you control player builds and styles of play, and where does it start and end? Is it even a good practice?

SmokingPuffin2 votes

They can leave champion paths viable (adjust ratios, cooldowns, items) instead of just banning viable, alternative builds that they don't want to see in the game.

Given that they don't want to see it in the game, banning is the appropriate course of action.

Concretely, a viable AP Tryndamere is not desirable. Anti-fun exceeds fun.

how much should you control player builds and styles of play, and where does it start and end?

It's a difficult question. Clearly a judgement call, and it's hard to imagine them getting it right all the time.

GamerAse2 votes

In my humble opinion, AP Tryndamere is not the problem. Tryndamere is the problem. Since Jax was reworked and lost his passive dodge, Tryndamere has been in my top list of champions I never want to play against. As I see it, his ultimate is completely and one hundred percent anti-fun. It's true that now there is a lot more CC than in the days Trynda had little counterplay, but it still feels so cheap to be dived under the tower at level 6 and, depending on your champion, possibly have little you can do about it and just survive until his ultimate ends.

Bottom line: are they entitled to ban stuff from the game? Absolutely, 100%. Does it make the game less fun? For me, it does, but I'm not sure how popular this opinion is.

Another point: let's exclude old champions like Trynda and outdated champions. If you are designing a champion, shouldn't you know all the ins and outs of that champion? Assuming you are a good designer, shouldn't you know 90% of all the ways that champion can be played? I will give Riot a pass on old champions, but take Lulu for example. How come whoever gave her those AP ratios didn't think "Yeah, she is going to be a beast as an AP caster"?

SmokingPuffin2 votes

In my humble opinion, AP Tryndamere is not the problem. Tryndamere is the problem.

Certainly there is an element of truth here. I don't think AD Tryndamere is a healthy champion. AP Tryndamere is just crazy broken though.

If you are designing a champion, shouldn't you know all the ins and outs of that champion? Assuming you are a good designer, shouldn't you know 90% of all the ways that champion can be played?

There are so many more players than developers and playtesters. It's reasonable to think Riot tested every item on the champion, but not reasonable to think Riot tested every item combination. Even then, there's more depth here -- many weird builds only work out with the right playstyle.

I do think modern League design is better than the old design era -- remember, they used to release a champ every two weeks. We've still cracked a ton of champions, though:

  • Kalista was looking pretty terrible until we discovered Runaan's / E max build.
  • Vel'Koz ratios weren't thought through very well. Turns out he's best as a support with a pen/torment build.
  • No chance they intended Tanky Jungle Elise to be the way that kit was supposed to be played. Again a case where ratios weren't thought through well.
  • Kha'Zix has proven extremely resilient to nerfs. So much so that you have to wonder why we didn't find the new builds alongside the old ones. Riot definitely didn't think of the Tear/W max mid lane build.
  • Rengar had that crazy splitpush build that forced a rework of the champion. Riot apparently didn't test health stacking plus split pushing very well.
  • Diana turned out to be amazing at solving the poke meta of the time with a Zhonya's rush and just REing onto the enemy team with no real intention of damaging them herself.
  • Jayce's W rolling technique with Muramana took Korea about 6 months to find and then he was 100-0ing champs.

take Lulu for example. How come whoever gave her those AP ratios didn't think "Yeah, she is going to be a beast as an AP caster"?

60% on Q (since been nerfed to 50%). 50% on enemy E (since nerfed to 40%). 15% on basic attacks. Those are all small numbers. I don't think it's hard to see how someone overlooked this.

SmokingPuffin2 votes

{quoted}

60% and 50% are pretty close to what one would expect from a mage.

Well sure, but those are the only two damaging spells on her kit. She has less than half the ratio Lux has, and Lux isn't a high damage champion.

It was a big surprise when people found out "hey, Lulu actually wins a lot of lanes". It's a great demonstration of the power of reliable damage, even if it's not that high an amount of damage.

Agreed, but if you are a designer, you work 8 hours a day, five days a week on this game.

Realistically, more like 10 and 6. Still, that's only 80 games a week if you spend all your time playing games to test that champion (and you don't; at least half your week is spent in meetings, discussion, coding, building, etc). You're changing builds of the game every day. The kit's not locked for the vast majority of your time spent with the design. Odds are good that you aren't a good enough player to execute all sorts of things, or that the opponents aren't good enough to show you why the thing you think is good really isn't.

Turns out Riot has a pretty big team of diamond playtesters. They're playing a bunch of games every day. Still, their internal staff is way way smaller than the PBE, and crazy broken stuff makes it off the PBE all the time.

You are supposed to know the ins and outs of it. I don't expect people to work out every single quirk about a champion, but if they designed it, they better come up with some of the best builds for it.

I generally expect they get it mostly right, but it only takes one escape of the right nature to break the game.

GamerAse2 votes

I agree with everything. I just wish that "breaking the game" were a good thing and led to purposeful balances, instead of being frowned upon and leading to removal of interesting ways of play.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well the thing is that most of the time when such things are found by riot they are nerfed or removed... like AP Yi, AP Tryndamere, Alistar jungle (well you could still try I guess)

And Blue Ezreal... though I am glad this thing was nerfed... it was such a pain to deal with (the removal of elder lizard and reduction of the AoE of the Iceborn slow for ranged champions)

SmokingPuffin2 votes

I don't really think that most unintended things are removed. Looking at the current meta:

  • Lulu is a solo laner, Riot intended her to be support.
  • Annie is (mostly) a support. Not designed that way.
  • Same with Morgana, although lately she's been making inroads as a ... top laner? No way Riot thought that was going to be a thing.
  • Sion is opening each game dying to chickens at level 1.
  • Fizz is this crazy AD bruiser thing.
  • It's easy to forget, but Riot really though Blitzcrank was supposed to be a solo lane bruiser.
  • How much you wanna bet Riot wasn't planning on Runaan's being core on Kalista?

I really think there is a lot of room for innovation in builds, and we just don't do it. The vast majority of players just copy whatever is fashionable, and don't even try to do something different.

Champion Skin2 votes

I think that is what Yasuo was supposed to be... (relying on his windwall and passive and mobility as defense and going for mostly damage items)

Thumpin5 votes

You forget the fact that Riot has never been able to balance both playstyles of the AD/AP champions. AP Trist/Yi/Sion were cancerous, awful champions that neglected half of their kits. AP Ezreal does not see buffs because that's not the most effective way to play him, and giving AP Ezreal buffs would send AD Ezreal over the top.

Also

League of Legends was dynamic and full of surprises once upon a time.

That was because nobody knew what they were doing back then.

GamerAse3 votes

You forget the fact that Riot has never been able to balance both playstyles of the AD/AP champions.

Agreed.

AP Trist/Yi/Sion were cancerous, awful champions that neglected half of their kits.

Maybe they neglected half of their kits, but they were viable, different ways to build a champion that didn't detract from playing them AD. I fail to see why that makes them "cancerous". "Annyoing", maybe.

I think that giving you the choice to play AD vs AP (or AD vs Tanky, even AP vs Tanky) should be present in as many cases as possible. Of course theose builds may play completely different from each other, but that's the beauty of it, as I see it.

Narasimha4 votes

Maybe they neglected half of their kits, but they were viable, different ways to build a champion that didn't detract from playing them AD. I fail to see why that makes them "cancerous". "Annyoing", maybe.

AP Trist - Mage levels of burst with good mobility, good range, and a good AA steroid which let her push decently as well . Plus, Grivious Wounds was a bitch. AP Yi - Almost impossible to kill due to his heal and had high damage from Alpha Strike. Sion - Was either a burst mage with random AD, AS, and LS steroids, or a fighter with an almost useless shield and a point-and-click stun.

Trist was the closest to being fine, but Yi and Sion were definitely cancerous.

GamerAse5 votes

AP Yi - Almost impossible to kill due to his heal and had high damage from Alpha Strike.

Mundo has a better heal than AP Yi had, and people seem fine with it. And especially now, there are a lot of abilities to interrupt the channeling, it shouldn't be a problem. High damage from Alpha Strike could've been adjusted instead of removing the AP scaling.

Sion - Was either a burst mage with random AD, AS, and LS steroids, or a fighter with an almost useless shield and a point-and-click stun.

Sion was subpar when compared with fighters like Lee, Jarvan and the lot, sure, but he could be played AD, AP, AS/Lifesteal... all of those builds were viable, and I think that counts for something (even if Sion was dull as a rock, the principles were there).

Thumpin3 votes

I think that giving you the choice to play AD vs AP (or AD vs Tanky, even AP vs Tanky) should be present in as many cases as possible. Of course theose builds may play completely different from each other, but that's the beauty of it, as I see it.

We have that already. They're Vi and Lee Sin and friends. Remember how everyone hates them?

What you want is incredibly hard to achieve, and instead Riot aims to accomplish this by designing champions with different kits for different purposes.

GamerAse3 votes

We have that already. They're Vi and Lee Sin and friends. Remember how everyone hates them?

I like that they are able to function with multiple builds. If anything, I guess people hate them either because of:

  • Their versatility, since they are solid enough to support multiple builds;
  • They are very good at what they do.

The first case wouldn't be a problem if every champion had more than one viable build. The second case is just a matter of rebalancing other champions to be jsut as good (and NOT nerfing everyone to be mediocre at their jobs).

What you want is incredibly hard to achieve, and instead Riot aims to accomplish this by designing champions with different kits for different purposes.

I agree, it makes designing champions a lot riskier (people might not like them if they can't figure them out) and way, way more difficult. I know Riot is taking the safer route here, but I wonder how much that route is making LoL a less interesting game, at least for me.

Back in the day, whenever I looked at a champion preview, it made me want to play the champion. I felt intrigued to see how I could play it, what I could make of it? Would I be able to jungle with it? Support?

Nowadays, I see how the champion plays in the preview and reading/hearing the commentary leaves me thinking "Ok, that's how that champion works, I guess that's all there is". Maybe its just me, but I don't like it.

DaCush3 votes

It's a lot easier to balance a game when you create a champion for a certain purpose and meta. If Riot were to create champions that weren't designated to a particular role than this game would be a hell of a lot worse in the balance department.

GamerAse6 votes

{quoted}

It's a lot easier to balance a game when you create a champion for a certain purpose and meta. If Riot were to create champions that weren't designated to a particular role than this game would be a hell of a lot worse in the balance department.

I completely agree: it's much easier on Riot's end. I just don't believe it is the best way to approach the task at hand. I also happen to like it when a game is balanced on a slightly higher scale (meaning League could afford to be a little more deadly and allow for more dangerous combinations), but that's just personal preference and a completely different subject altogether.

Yormaughm3 votes

DISCLAIMER: So I've got some kinda heavy stuff to say about this topic, and if anyone bothers to look me up, they're gonna think I'm just not qualified to talk about it because my stats make me look like an abysmal casual LoL player. I don't play ranked, and I probably never will. I have 34 wins in normals. I mostly play bot games. The reason for this is that I am a perfectionist. I don't believe in doing things "for real" until I'm sure I'm doing them "the best I absolutely can" and I take this approach to normals, which is why I play so few of them. I know I'm not great so I don't try to take my game to the next level until I'm sure I deserve to be there. That said, I have been playing since season 3, and almost every one of my 34 wins came with an off-meta pick that I got flamed for constantly, kicked out of team builder for picking, and sometimes absolutely dominated with; Support Veigar.

Now I believe this makes what I have to say even more salient in this post because as we are now aware, it took Riot and the community at large 2 years longer than it took me to figure out why support Veigar was good. Nowadays you don't have to look far to find a thread where someone just casually says "well Veigar deserved nerfs because support Veigar could shut people down too easily." What's completely ironic about this is that I'd bet any amount of money those same people saying that would be the exact people telling me that Veigar is useless as a support and kicking me out of their games before they saw some Koreans an/or LemonNation prove to the whole world something that I figured out 2 years ago. My biggest problem is, no matter how good support Veigar is, I personally just suck at League of Legends so there was no way I could possibly prove that to anyone =p

Anyway a lot of what you say is pretty spot on and I agree with it probably 90%. But I'm afraid I have to explain to you why Riot does what they do and why it's never going to go back to the way it was.

Here goes.

Having champions with tons of options for their builds is arguably a very healthy and in fact a sound tactical option in a game like LoL, but the more complex the game gets, the less possible it is to balance unless you start defining things in particular ways. Remember, it's pretty obvious that absolutely no one wants to play "League of Not Even Close-to-Balanced."

You mentioned several times in this thread about how "older champions" (Morgana specifically) are the ones who still have variable options, and that the newer champs are shoehorned into a pre-defined meta (which you don't like.) The issue is, and weirdly I think Riot is only just now starting to figure this out, Riot does not get to decide what the meta is. In fact they never have. The meta is, was, and always will be determined by the players.

It developed because the millions of players who play this game every day (which is billions of games a year, maybe more) did math, way more math than Riot could ever do in the same time-frame, and they came up with the simplest solution that was also the most rewarding. And I'm not even claiming most of them did it explicitly or on purpose. Just the collective experience of playing billions upon billions of hours of League of Legends led people to a collective understanding over time, of what "works best." Finding the path of least resistance is just something human beings do, and that's true no matter what you're talking about.

If you have a problem that needs to be solved, a goal that needs to be reached, a game that needs to be won, if people work on it, especially if TONS of people work on it, and share that experience, a prevailing method will emerge, and that method will emerge because it's the best one. If and when (I can't stress the importance of that phrase in this context) that method is improved upon, it will it change again.

Now there are people out there, myself included, and you as well obviously, who just want to question everything. They ask; "Can it be done better?" And surprisingly, sometimes the answer is yes. The problem is, once people learn that someone found a better way, once that enters the collective consciousness of the masses, it replaces the old way and becomes the stagnant thing (in this case, the meta.) The larger issue isn't that Riot stops things from changing so that they can keep things the way they are forever, it's that they prevent the new adaptations that they never foresaw from becoming the prevailing thing and therefore too stagnant (and it's important to remember that only unbalanced things will become "stagnant" at this point.) Now, I'll grant you that this is a slippery slope and we don't always know what's "too powerful" and what isn't hence the subjectivity and argumentativeness on the topic.

You made a really good analogy to this by bringing up how sports have set rules that haven't changed in a really long time (stagnation, or enforced meta.) But I don't see Soccer and Football getting less popular. So in the case of an eSport, when the developer can introduce new elements (unlike in real sports,) they need to have a design in mind for those elements. When characters don't fit that design you get a soccer player who's allowed to use their hands, or a running back who's allowed to make a forward pass whenever they want. This obviously can't happen in real sports so when it happens in LoL, Riot is within their right to put a stop to it. If anything they should've seen it coming first, but it's not ok to say "well it's in the game now so it can't change" which is effectively what they did in a large number of cases at least in the beginning. They used to only nerf things because "this was clearly just too powerful, our bad." (And sometimes they still nerf things for that reason because what was "too powerful" the whole time just went unnoticed aka. Tristana.) Now they nerf things because "the community is doing things with this that are outside the rules for the "position" that character plays, and we need to put a stop to that so we can preserve the integrity of the game we're expected to present." Now it might sound like fun, and sometimes it is, but "anything goes" is no way to run a successful business, or a successful sport.

Right now there are a few off-meta things that happen which you mentioned, lane swaps, the support roaming with the jungler early, but are we ever going to get away from the 1-1-2 + jungler meta. Probably not. It's just too mathematically efficient. (Interestingly though, and this is a point for another post, but the next character to come out, Bard, is supposed to roam, and not just sit in bot lane, and I'm personally pretty excited about that. But there's a large chance this could fail and Bard will be next to useless, though I personally don't think he will, but I digress.)

If you want proof of everything I've said may I offer up Team Builder? Team Builder was released during the time when Riot used to constantly pepper their own forums with "we don't enforce the meta." They constantly said they didn't care how you played and fun was the name of the game, and that they didn't want to allow people to be able to "call their roles" before matchmaking because they thought that would "enforce the meta." But the community was so toxic toward meta-breakers that Riot was forced to find a solution. That solution was Team Builder which allows you to not only call your role but also your starting position and hailed it as the thing that would solve every problem with the game. "Tired of getting flamed for wanting to break the meta? Wanna try duo-top? Think all-mid is a good idea? Just queue up for that in Team Builder so you'll find people who agree with you and never have a toxic game again." And what happened? If you didn't queue for the 1-1-2+ jungler meta, you'd sit in matchmaking for hours, and even when you did it could take 15 minutes to find a support. Not because Riot was enforcing the meta, but because everyone else was. Now, the only reason Team Builder is better than Blind Pick is so you can guarantee the roll you want and avoid people trolling, and thank you Rito for that!

Eventually Riot learned the valuable lesson from this experience. It's nice to include everyone, but if you aren't catering to the overwhelming majority of your customers, you're not doing your job right. It simply wasn't cost effective for Riot to release champions without telling you what they're supposed to do and without having a clear design for which well established roll they fit into. The ability to do something else with them still exists, and there are people like you and me who will still try to do it, but League has reached a point in it's lifespan where nurturing the "anything is possible" idea is just no longer wise. Some people still believe it, and often times these people do find new things that work, even when they're told "this champion only does X." But it's now gotten to the point where it's in Riot's best interest to limit these possibilities in order to preserve the thing that's gotten them where they are today; people who want to do everything along the path of least resistance, which means no thinking, no testing, no failure, just look up a rune page and item build that someone else figured out and climb freelo all day.

Now I wholeheartedly agree with you, if Riot becomes too rigid and inflexible on issues like this very one, they will lose the creative and innovative players, which could ultimately doom them, but that will take a long time. I also just think they expect us to take their approach with a grain of salt because they know that we think on that next level already and the message they're sending was never designed for us anyway.

GamerAse3 votes

I was going to quote and comment on bits and pieces of your post, but it would take me too long to highlight all the good points you make. I'll just say this:

That post is a perfect summarization of the current situation and why it is not likely to change.

I remember playing support Veigar back at the beginning when Veigar used to be my main. It worked wonders. After Leona was released and champions started getting more and more mobility, I'm not sure how it fared, but I can believe it worked.

As for the rest of the post, it's just spot on. I can't add much else, only that I think that Team Builder was a great addition to League (even if it doesn't work as well as it could), things like Nemesis Draft are interesting, singular references that provide a good window into what the game could be.

Riot is taking the safe route to preserve the game they created over the years, since it has reached a peak popularity. The easier they can get people to start playing and understand the game the better, and the current formula works for that. I guess I can't blame them for wanting to preserve their own property, but hard as it may be, it could be done better (in my opinion).

Daedalus8711 votes

Riot has said that they like the current meta and don't want to see it changed (more or less). With that in mind, I don't see a problem with them making champs for the meta.

GamerAse3 votes

Many sports like soccer or baseball have rules that have been in place for a while now. It's rare for a soccer team to innovate using a brand new strategy when it comes to player placement in the field or approach to the game.

One of the many things I like about e-sports in general is their ability to stay fresh. I stopped playing League of Legends when the game felt stale to me, and I fear it may be happening again. While it is perfectly fine if Riot wants to work towards keeping the meta as-is, it just doesn't work for me as a player. That's what I'm trying to illustrate: why it doesn't work for me. Of course, your mileage may vary.

RetroRage961 votes

Braum is a strong and resilient melee support[...]

I have nothing else to add.

What do you suggest we play Braum as? He doesn't have enough damage for top or midlane, and he can't clear fast enough in the jungle. He carries a giant shield. What did you expect?

I completely agree with the Alistar one, that was just stupid and Riot shouldn't do that.

But with Sion, they were talking about the old Sion, so they changed him to something more versatile. That's a step in the right direction.

So yes, I see your point, but not all of your examples are viable.

GamerAse1 votes

What do you suggest we play Braum as? He doesn't have enough damage for top or midlane, and he can't clear fast enough in the jungle. He carries a giant shield. What did you expect?

Even a support can have multiple build paths. Imagine that his Q had a nice AP scaling or that it applied on-hit effetcs. It would open new possibilities to play Braum as. As he is right now, I wouldn't expect anyone to play him as anything but a tanky melee support. I wish they had given his kit more variety.

But with Sion, they were talking about the old Sion, so they changed him to something more versatile. That's a step in the right direction.

I will have to disagree partly with this one. Old Sion was dull as a gray granite rock, but he had options. You could build him AP, you could build him AD/LS/AS (whatever you want to call it). The new Sion... not so much. I completely disagree with the statement that the new Sion is more versatile. More fun? Substantially (I still don't find him fun, but YMMV). More versatile? Not in my opinion.

I completely agree with the Alistar one, that was just stupid and Riot shouldn't do that.

The point can be made that Alistair was overwhelming as a jungler / roamer, but to completely remove that option... glad to know I'm not alone in this one!

RetroRage961 votes

He carries a big shield! He's a protector! What can he be besides a support?!

I don't think it's an issue about kit and numbers, it's champion concept. He's not a support because of his low damage, he's a support because of his really cool concept.

Sion carries a giant axe, and is humongous. You would expect him to be a tanky damage dealer. You won't expect him to be built AP. And now you say, "but Rumble is big, and he has AP scaling!" Well, he shoots fire. That seems AP to me.

One champ that I did not expect to be AD was Jayce. He's shooting energy-stuff at you. That's AP.

Again, I agree with Alistar.

GamerAse1 votes

{quoted}

He carries a big shield! He's a protector! What can he be besides a support?!

I don't think it's an issue about kit and numbers, it's champion concept. He's not a support because of his low damage, he's a support because of his really cool concept.

I agree that Braum's concept is pretty cool. But again, I must say that there are many ways in which a support can be played (for example, Nami and Leona are opposite types of supports). We could have a build that emphasizes Braum's Ice abilities (his Q and ult) in cool ways, not just scaling off of AP.

Sion carries a giant axe, and is humongous. You would expect him to be a tanky damage dealer. You won't expect him to be built AP. And now you say, "but Rumble is big, and he has AP scaling!" Well, he shoots fire. That seems AP to me.

Sejuani AP was very strong at a point. She is a boar rider with a huge mace. She uses Ice, just like Braum. I don't see why being AP or AD should be reflected in the types of weapons a champion uses. "Magic" is a very loose concept. Seeing as AP stands for "Ability Power" and AD stands for "Attack Damage", their definitions do not even refer "Magic" as a source of direct power, they just refer to power and damage.

One champ that I did not expect to be AD was Jayce. He's shooting energy-stuff at you. That's AP.

Also, Katarina and Akali wield huge blades, and they're mostly played AP (or a hybrid). Ezreal shoots magical beams and he's perfectly viable as AD.

Again, I agree with Alistar.

And we still can't milk those.

RetroRage961 votes

Katarina and Alkali don't really have huge blades, and Katarina has Grevious Wounds on her basic attacks.

A little bit unrelated, Mordekaiser definitely looks like he should be played AD, but that hasn't been viable in a long time.

So what I'm saying is that Riot should work on making champions more consistent to their concepts.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Some points I agree with, others not so much.

The main thing I agree with you on is how they're hypocritical in saying that Bard should be a roaming support, but they will not stand for Alistar doing the same thing (and yes I play the cow, so sprinkle salt on me if you will).

The main thing I disagree with is how most champs should be played with AD or AP kits. The problem with AP in kits is that some old champions became downright broken with it.

AP Yi was probably the biggest offender; he'd click Q on a minion wave, obliterate the entire thing, and if you were in the way, you'd get chunked without being able to fight back since he'd be untargetable. If you retalitated afterwards, he'd Meditate and not only reduce damage, but he'd heal for a ludicrous amount; your retaliation would be completely absorbed. Once he got blue buff, how would you go about fighting this playstyle? Seriously, how? I didn't even play against many AP Yi's during his 15 minutes of fame, but holy hell, the idea of it is not fun at all.

Old AP Sion was not want Riot wanted out of him. You read his lore (which they attempted to preserve in the relaunch, which I think they accomplished) and he's supposed to be this frontline juggernaut who shrugged off arrows and blows like nothing, all while being this undead monstrosity. They ....tried to create that. The reason it wasn't intended was because of his ult, in my opinion. You want to be slashing at people, healing up a ton while being in everyone's face....but if you build AP, you have this cheesy 2-skill burst combo which had really high AP scaling for no reason. You're telling me a dude would run into battle with this bigass axe and NOT bother to use it?

The new Sion is leagues better than old, and with his new kit, you technically still CAN build him AD or AP, but in my honest opinion, he's just better off building very tanky, so that he can run into a teamfight and soak up so much damage...then die, and STILL be a threat for a few seconds. It matches what Riot's lore tells you about him, and he also looks straight-up amazing now, compared to Ahnald Pizzafeet Sion of old.

Sorry for my rambling, but I wanted to throw in my 2 (4? 5?) cents. I still hit 'Yes' to your poll.

GamerAse1 votes

First of all, thanks for your comment and participation.

{quoted} The new Sion is leagues better than old, and with his new kit, you technically still CAN build him AD or AP, but in my honest opinion, he's just better off building very tanky, so that he can run into a teamfight and soak up so much damage...then die, and STILL be a threat for a few seconds. It matches what Riot's lore tells you about him, and he also looks straight-up amazing now, compared to Ahnald Pizzafeet Sion of old.

I won't argue that the new Sion is probably more fun (it's not hard to be more fun than old Sion, to be honest), but he is a lot less flexible in terms of how he builds. Old Sion was just as viable AP as he was AD/AS/LS. New Sion has to be a sort of tanky bruiser to be efficient.

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