Talon, Darius and Zed in the junlge.

StarAquaBlue17·2/18/2020, 2:20:14 PM·2 votes·5,598 views

You know, having flexible roles can be at times problematic and sometimes unhealthy for the game, whether as or against the champion who are supposed to be designed in a specific role they belong in. And this change was announced; recently, Riot announced that GarenGaren, DariusDarius, ZedZed, TalonTalon and DianaDiana will drawn into the jungle to widen up the role and to appeal the both jungle players and players who mained them. When we heard the announcements, me and many other people found some of the champions to be a little bit strange. Talon and Zed makes enough sense since they got pretty good jungle clear by their abilities. But for Garen and Darius while they are tanky and can clear pretty good, have one of the weakest ganks, because 1. They're juggernauts with no dashes, 2. Have mediocre objective control and participation around scuttle-crab and dragons for example, 3. Don't have in tools to catch their enemies compared juggernaut junglers like Shyvana or Trundle, who are - despite being a juggernaut - have gap-closers or ranged options to catch their enemies, and 4. Are snowballed dependent to gain leads from kills or assists, which rarely happens for them, because they are easily kiteable.

Speaking of widening the role, I myself found it very ironic that the other two non-junglers who have in common are supposedly designed to be in in the mid-lane, Sylas and Qiyana, where nerfed over and over again in an attempt to remove them from being viable in the jungle. So, the question is: Why is Riot ok with putting champions like Darius or Garen to be viable in the jungle, while being not okay with Sylas and Qiyana to be flexible in it. Honestly, I have no clue; Riot are in my opinion a bit all over the place when making champions intentionally flexible in other roles. That maybe the reason why I dislike having full AP carries like Zyra or Brand in the support role to be viable there (but that subject will be discussed in another time). Anyway, Do you agree that Riot are a little bit unpredictable when it comes to making some champions viable in other roles, while other champions not? Let me know.

27 Comments

Z3SIeeper2/18/2020, 4:24:14 PM5 votes

Because some non-jungler designs are simply toxic and adversely affect game health when they appear in the jungle.

Examples:

Taliyah Ekko Camille Ekko Qiyana Ekko and also Ekko

Edit: Also Ekko

MaskedMadness2/19/2020, 1:08:36 AM4 votes

I find adding zed to the jungle terrifying. as a midlaner zed is already a roaming menace showing up to lanes pressing R for a guaranteed kill. if he becomes a jungler not only can he do this more often and even do it to the enemy jungle now. its harder to tell if he is there. you cant see him mid anymore because he is somewhere in the jungle. completely unpredictable.

same goes for talon. you cant rely on staring at mid and seeing he isn't there because he is in the jungle.

I can only imagine the gold funneling too since lethality helps take towers really fast. if someone gold funnels a zed or talon. go bot one shot enemy bot and push with 2 and a fed lethality assassin.

all im trying to say is that zed and talon would be way to viable in jungle because they thrive at the start of the game with huge roam potential and having constant pressure over the whole map as long as they dont show.

Halodjin Tyr2/19/2020, 12:50:54 AM3 votes

I just wish they put Irellia in the jg.

DerMangoJoghurt2/18/2020, 4:28:10 PM2 votes

I think viability in multiple roles is another balance lever that disproportionately affects pro play.

Sylas and Qiyana are champions that are a lot stronger in pro play, compared to other skill levels. Removing them from the jungle role in order to nerf them is regrettable, but in my opinion a better solution than general nerfs to their overall performance. I don't think anybody wants another Akali situation.

I don't really follow pro play, but from the proposed new jungle champions I don't recognize any as notorious pro play problems; quite the opposite. So I assume they are more effective in normal play than pro and have room for those buffs because of that.

Aymin2/18/2020, 2:27:26 PM2 votes

I am pretty sure that if we were behind closed doors, there would be some insight into the inspiration for these sorts of things. Maybe Sett Jungle got them inspired. Maybe they played another game and thought about it. Maybe someone found an account that was a Darius Jungle one trick and thought it was cool.

I think that Darius doesn't even feel like a jungler. I don't WANT to play Darius and brutally deathmatch crabs and kruggs. I tried to get my suggestion out into the ether, that Garen could be made a jungler by allowing his ult to be used on Large and Epic monsters if you have a Jungle item, which would provide a skill-based, gold-agnostic objective control feature to his kit. If you make his clear strong, he will terrorize low elo. He will be Master Yi except he can just facetank everything and has an execute.

dontspinbutwin2/18/2020, 11:03:14 PM1 votes

I think its because as of right now, the standard jungler is:

  1. Dash into lane/the enemy
  2. Burst.
  3. Success.

Obviously, Diana is exactly that, but the other 3 are a bit odd. Garen doesn't really have a dash. Darius has no movement speed sterroid whatsoever. Gnar's ganks either go as kindred, or amumu.

I think it'll be interesting to see how this patch goes tbh

Umbra Z2/19/2020, 1:55:10 PM1 votes

Garen and darius are slow? Let me introduce you to predator or nimbus cloak

EvilUnicornLord2/18/2020, 6:33:54 PM1 votes

This comment coming from someone who's spent their life in the toplane.

It's because top is slowly becoming dominated by ranged champions that slow juggernauts like Garen and Darius can do next to nothing against. It's extremely unfun laning as Garen into Senna because they can attack you if you try to farm and kite back to tower if you try to engage. Even if they screw up and you take out a chunk of their health with an engage, they can just heal it off.

League in general has always had a problem with ranged vs. immobile melee matchups and it's gotten worse with the resolve tree royally sucking and new overloaded ranged champs. However, those counters become significantly less of an issue when the immobile melee takes to the jungle since they don't have to lane against them.

Also, Garen does have the speed with his Q to charge into lane and Darius has the CC. Their ganks are still somewhat mediocre but being able to play them somewhere other than "I hope you like Vladimir and Quinn" top lane is nice.

Seriously, though, nerf conq and buff the resolve tree.

RyzeRework2/18/2020, 7:52:05 PM1 votes

I actually like the changes but I like jungleing in smite and the junglers there are usualy assassins it just makes more sense

Karn Bishop2/18/2020, 9:33:47 PM1 votes

Diana wont be a better jungler with these changes and you completely leave out the new S tier jungler which is hilarious.

Gnar will now be an S tier jungler once the learning curve adapts as the increased damage helps him clear but more importantly he now has a solid base movespeed which will make escaping from a jungle gnar really really hard.

Darius will be the other standard jungler to come out of these changes at a solid B to A rank pick due to the healing change and the dot damage change he will be at good health now which is the onlyy reason he couldn't jungle originally, heck i'd argue hes straight up a better jungler then vi now.

I doubt zed or talon will remain in the jungle because they both need mid lane gold generation and support gold levels simply wont let them function no matter how good their clear is.

edit: as an off note rammus will now be a top laner who builds on hit so technically we lose a jungler from the pool.

Durzaka2/18/2020, 9:47:46 PM1 votes

Different kits is the answer to your question about Sylas and Qiyana vs. Garen and Darius.

Sylas and Qiyanas gets were extremely oppressive in the jungle. ESPECIALLY at a pro level.

Garen and Darius are very unlikely to cause any such problem, and all the change does is open up the option for some players (most likely in low elo) to use.