Boards›Gameplay

When will riot gut Fizz?

WhereTheNamesAt·10/17/2014, 4:39:34 AM·75 votes·8,383 views

@Riot, This is getting to be a joke now. A champ should not be able to dash to me get 1 empowered autoattack off and then be able to jump away, avoid taking a tower shot and be out of ranged autoattacks. Once Fizz gets a sheen you might as well just leave lane because you are not going to touch him without losing 2/3 of your health. There is absolutely no counterplay to fizz. Zhonya's you say? He will just wait right next to you then Q E you. Qss? Do you really think he needs his ult with high scaling Q and E and don't forget the percent health damage on his W. Don't go away from your team you say? Okay I'll just take the whole team with me to top lane to save turret while the enemy team pushes mid. Their is not a champ in this game that can kill easier than fizz. Why should he get a 70% slow just so he could hammer me with a 60% slow right after? When Kha'zix got this strong they gutted the hell out of him. You should do all or a few of the listed things: -remove the 100% ad scaling on his and/or the on-hit effects -remove the percent missing health scaling on his W -raise the cooldown on his E and/or lower the scaling on it completely remove the damage from it -lower/remove his slow and remove his knock-up and/or reduce the ap scaling on it. You can also allow dashes and blinks to be used even with his ult on the target

Riot, please stop nerfing champions who do not need them and continue to let broken champs like Fizz stay. I like to play the regular ap mids like TF, Orianna, and Lux but i just cannot play them whenever there is a Fizz. BTW, I don't ever pick TF or Lux into Fizz, they are always picked into me. He just has to much utility and damage in his kit and it really makes the game unbearable. Saying his early game is bad is stupid, once he gets his ultimate and sheen he will be able to all-in you and kill you or at least make you recall.

I'm gonna post this link to a vid as an example of what fizz is fully capable of:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMNJ7gkzIKE&list=UUuSrv3qgQA7SSi6R9bWag5A Now, yes this is Trick2g vid (I recommend turning down volume). In the span of 13-15 seconds a half-health Fizz goes invincible 4 times and can 100-0 an udyr with 3300+ health. I think this video and Trick's reaction completely demonstrates the toxicity of this champ in the game. Before you say anything about how this was an outplay (which is not because he presses E goes invincible, W, Lich bane proc, Q, rinse, and repeat, dead) I want you to tell me another champ in this game that can possibly do this.

So, This board has 150+ comments and around 2.5k views, when is a Red going to see this? I just wanna know if they are going to do something about Fizz or in-depth tell me why they plan on keeping Fizz this toxic.

180 Comments

Marenjii10/17/2014, 6:04:15 AM29 votes

Having 100% uptime on % missing health damage for free is absolute bullshit. Kha got gutted for having it on such a short CD. While Fizz just AAs and boom., it procs. Swap the passive and active on his E so that he has to pay for his % missing health damage. Add 2 seconds to his E CD, and remove the AoE slow on his ult. Maybe even make it so that his E does not go on CD till he lands, and if he lands on no one, increase the CD. Not saying ALL of that needs to happen all at once, but we have a PBE for a reason. Why is he doing so much damn AoE damage as an assassin? He has the AoE of a mage, and the gibbing power of an assassin. This is a cancerous as old Diana being an assassin, and a fighter at the same time. Or Vayne being an assassin and an ADC at the same time. Some classes just do not mix well.

Ghost Busta Bill10/17/2014, 8:23:01 AM16 votes

Annie Ahri Ryze Malzahar Zyra Lissandra Orianna Pantheon Lissandra

Captain Aishi10/17/2014, 11:58:35 AM14 votes

i think they should just make it so his Q doesn't apply on-hit effects, so he actually has to do an autoattack animation to burst people with lich bane instead of pressing Q for instant 1500 damage late game

hashinshin10/17/2014, 12:58:17 PM14 votes

This is why boards suck. Unless high ELO upvotes start to impact more than low ELO expect this to be the new norm for balance and discussion.

EndlessSorcerer10/17/2014, 6:42:05 AM12 votes

He should be nerfed when people stop QQ'ing about him. I wouldn't hold my breath.

More seriously, he's in a pretty good spot right now. He, like Akali, is just a champion really good at punishing mistakes and snowballing against uncoordinated players who either can't lock him down or let themselves get picked off.

I've never really had an issue with Fizz, personally. He seems like he would be a fun champion to play, his E has a high mana cost and long cooldown early game so most mages can bully him when played well, and most of his damage is single target (considering most people complain about him using his E to escape instead of damage...).

For the record, Lux and Twisted Fate seem like they would be horrible picks into a good Fizz. They are squishy, immobile, and require landing telegraphed CC abilities with travel time to protect themselves. Those qualities pretty much make Fizz a counter pick to them.

Orianna doesn't seem like should would have many issues against him though. You probably won't get kills unless Fizz screws up, but it should be pretty easy to turn it into a farm lane and shield a good chunk of his damage while harassing him with AA and the occasional Q.

I think one of your issues fighting him is your rune pages. You're AP page has no Magic Resistance, some scaling armor, and attack speed which won't really help you survive his burst or harass him down consistently. Try using MR glyphs and either Magic Pen or Hybrid Pen marks.

If you want a strong pick against Fizz, I would recommend trying Lissandra. He can't really do much about her point-and-click CC ultimate (or she can use it to stasis his burst), her W is easy to land so you can root him before he can E away, and she can poke him heavily with Q during the lane whenever he tries to CS. Lulu would probably be another strong pick against him.

Other good picks (off the top of my head) would be Gragas, Maokai, Cho'gath, Swain, and Mordekaiser. They can each get fairly tanky and deal respectable damage, so they can reliably survive Fizz's burst damage and then punish him for it while he lacks cooldowns. Also Kayle. cause her ultimate loves telegraphed burst damage and her E has no projectile to dodge.

As an aside, you have some typos in your text and it would probably benefit from spacing out of of the sentences.

SolidPooh10/17/2014, 8:52:14 AM9 votes

He IS a difficult champ to play against but again you need patience vs him. If you cant land your cc or moves on him, then spend them on cs or bait out his dodge. every champ has a counter play, whether it's kit based or skill/experience based..

There is always a way, practice some 1v1s if your mid lane is struggling.

I have problems against Fizz too, but I learn with every loss. One person he is very right in saying that Fizz is a telegraphed champion, just a very powerful one

MrSc0tty10/17/2014, 12:01:10 PM6 votes

I love how many people don't know he's fully targetable and moves on a fixed trajectory during his q. If he tower dives me with Q, he's cced, will not get that autoattack and will not win that trade.

Also, fiddlesticks is hilarious against him. Blocks every spell in the game, you say? Huehuehuehuehue.

exiledFromBadmen10/17/2014, 5:32:56 PM6 votes

Hi Mordekaiser

Decaedeus10/17/2014, 11:11:48 PM5 votes

Actually, Fizz does have some solid counterplay, and isn't picked or banned every game in professional tournaments like pre-nerf Kha'Zix. To counter Fizz, you can murder him while his Playful/Trickster is on cooldown. That said, Fizz is one of the harder champions to lane against, and snowballs easily. About your changes;

remove the 100% ad scaling on his and/or the on-hit effects

As a general rule of thumb, on-hit effects have 100% AD scaling or above. Besides, this isn't what makes Fizz so monstrous. Let it stay.

remove the percent missing health scaling on his W

One hit of percent missing health isn't gonna kill you. That's definitely not the reason why Fizz has such monstrous burst.

raise the cooldown on his E and/or lower the scaling on it

Ah, a finally valid suggestion. Fizz is so unfair to fight against because his E has a 5 second cooldown late game; Zhonya's doesn't do anything. Additionally, E is on approximately the same cooldown as most bread-and-butter damage skills (Karma Q, Lux E). That's definitely the main issue with Fizz, and increasing Playful/Trickster's cooldown significantly can give Fizz meaningful counterplay while still maintaining his identity.

lower his slow and/or reduce the ap scaling on it

By slow, I'm assuming you mean Chum the Waters. I disagree with this comment; Chum the Waters is a meaningful, iconic ultimate which has counterplay (dodge/move out of radius of ally hit) and comprises a large part of his strength. The main issue with it is the 1275 range. Fizz should not have higher range than Lux; now, that is unfair. Fizz should be forced to get into fighting range to be able to hit this ability; something like 800 would be nice.

Having 100% uptime on % missing health damage for free is absolute bullshit.

Really? I mean, getting a few ticks of burn damage doesn't make a burst mage OP. When Fizz is fed, you don't go "WTF is that burn damage," you go, "WTF HE ONESHOT ME WITH QE." As Thryale so nicely calculated, Fizz's burn is really an insignificant portion of his damage.

The problem with most people is that they think the way to nerf assassins is their damage. Assassins RELY on being able to kill someone instantly; either they oneshot you and they're good, or they don't and they are literally useless. Counterplay in assassins comes through their utility and the weaknesses that come from this utility. Imagine if Katarina didn't oneshot someone with her full burst combo. She would QEWR... then stand there looking stupid and autoattacking while the enemy nukes her down. Katarina, however, has counterplay through the ability to be CCed and promptly bursted.

Alright, you lazy people. TL;DR. Fizz's problem isn't his burn, his slow, his ulti, or his 100% AD scaling on Q. It's his absurdly low E cooldown combined with the high range on R that makes him so oppressive in lane. To hit assassins, nerf their utility, not their damage.

Zuil10/18/2014, 7:29:50 PM4 votes

Don't forget his passive, free unique passive from Phantom Dancer.

Junkο10/17/2014, 1:31:46 PM4 votes

I stomped a Gold Fizz with Malzahar yesterday...

Q Ball16210/17/2014, 5:04:02 AM4 votes

I don't think Fizz is grossly overpowered by any means. BUT, I can say that is troll pole is extremely broken....ESPECIALLY late game, he needs some changes. I pretty much ban him any chance I get. All the assassin's have been getting nerfed, but he's still lurking about...gut the fish.

Abroad Unicorn10/18/2014, 11:28:31 AM3 votes

The problem has never been Fizz's damage, but how he goes about using it. Normal assassins have to put themselves in harms way to get a kill, and usually rely on their team to get out. However, just like old Leblanc being able silence and prevent retaliation, Fizz just goes invulnerable and hops away. Because of the CD on Fizz's immunity, a teamfight for fizz usually means he is at full health or dead. Fizz dashes in, auto's and Trixters, followed by Zhonya's where he will then rinse and repeat. During this ability chain, there is zero opportunity to CC or retaliate against fizz, with the only real option being run away. A lot of this is a problem with Zhonya's, as plenty of champions can sit in Zhonya's and wait for their cooldowns. However, with Fizz having immunity built into hit kis already, he becomes incredibly hard to deal with.

merdragon10/17/2014, 5:30:56 PM3 votes

lol? If you nerf anything on him I'd make it his cds. He's an all or nothing champ like leblanc. If you miss his shark or get caught early you either die or use your abilities to flee. If he needs balance its in making windows to kill him. His damage is fine. He is an assassin. You're supposed to go "wtf happened to my hp." The question is does he have enough counter play atm and if not how should it be added. I personally don't think he is a problem but if he is I don't think its his damage.