Should A Champion Be Nerfed For Being Annoying?

TzQGRUST39·3/5/2018, 10:36:38 AM·34 votes·4,211 views

I am referring to Zoe in this post, but it goes for all champions.

We all know that she was ridiculously obnoxious in multiple ways, her Q was a wrecking ball that not even tanks could eat more than a couple of, and her sleepy bubble was much to forgiving in both its cool down and its hit box. Every game with Zoe in it become a "Zoe Game" because of how she warped the playstyles of everyone to accommodate for her strengths. Despite all of this, she was never "OP" when looking at her winrate. She averaged around a 47-48 % winrate when you average all levels of play, and only got to around 49-51% when you only looked at plat+ (Her banrate at those elos were significantly higher as well).

So the question is, should she have been gutted as severly as she was? It felt like Riot recognized how annoying she was and decided that no one should play against her in her current state, so they made her so bad that no one could play her.

I feel like this is there strategy for multiple champions. Another one being Lucian. While he isn't as inherently obnoxious as Zoe, his problem is how popular he becomes if he is meta. Everytime he reaches a decent winrate he is picked in near every game and I feel like Riot nerfs him just to break up the meta.

124 Comments

Testiclies3/5/2018, 11:43:04 AM16 votes

First of all, I am truly happy to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that Lucian is an annoying piece of sh...oe. Secondly, I think that there are more annoying champions than Zoe. I'm not a big fan of her design. After all, she is just a little girl jumping and screaming here and there and talking too much and killing everyone and liking stars and shiny things. But, as far as I am concerned, her kit is not as annoying as many players think it is. Do you want to see another annoying midlaner? Meet my precious rock girl: Taliyah. Her kit is one of the most annoying things on midlane. A decent Taliyah won't let you get near her at all and, although she lacks an offensive ultimate with damage output, Weaver's Wall (her R) is one of the most annoying abilities in this game when used well. Not only she can roam with it like no other midlaner (except AurelionSol , maybe) but she can use it as a perfect escape ability. When roaming, she can force the lane she roamed to flash over the wall or they die (I am talking purely about her and her kit, not about counterganks and so on). But that's just one midlaner. Nevertheless, the most annoying midlaner is, without further arguments, Zed. He doesn't need to sustain his mana, he blinks every 10 seconds with his W and R, and his passive is the most broken passive in this game. Look at the passive of Lissandra. She can use an ability with no mana cost every 18 seconds. This being said, does Zed have got her passive as well? He doesn't even need to use mana! And no, I do not accept the argument that champions also need to maintain their energy usage. This only won't let them use their abilities every 0.5 seconds. But mages, who need to maintain their mana, have got high ability cooldowns, which is the same as energy that won't let them spam abilities. I would really like to see changes that would give energy user champions mana and high ability cooldowns, just to be fair. Check other lanes. As you have previously mentioned before, Lucian is a ridiculously annoying ADC, right next to Vayne. I simply hate because there are certain situations and teamcomps when you can't outplay her at all. Her low-cooldown dash makes her very annoying, and her oneshot ability is, in my opinion, a bit too powerful. I am not talking about her being OP but she lacks the amount of ways to outplay her other champions have got. Oh, and how about Nami as a support? I think she is balanced now, her greatest enemy is her ridiculously high mana costs, but it is easy to admit that she is purely annoying. She has got a mixed kit with both sustain and damage, neither of them are to underestimate or you'll find yourself in a very bad situation. Taric is similar to her, but both his sustain and damage values are lower than hers. He is something like a melee tank version of her. Now let's jump to the jungle. Khazix is, in my honest opinion, the most annoying jungler in this game. Not only is his burst damage simply ridiculous, but his high mobility with jumps and leaps with his invisibility every 0.5 second makes him unkillable in certain game comps. And what about toplane? Do you think Yasuo and Darius are annoying? Well, then you have never faced a decent Gangplank in your life. His ridiculous amount of damage output, amazing pushing potential, inbuilt item 3035 and inbuilt item 3140 that is available every 15 seconds and heals him as well, barrels that are not easy to play around, global ultimate, true damage, slowing abilities, high amount of movement speed boosts and higher gold income than any other champion in this game makes him my #1 most annoying champion. The only way to kill him is to wait until he misses something or plays something badly. I. Simply. Hate. Him.

As you can see, the champions I listed above are all very annoying and sometimes has got kits that are harder to play around than other champions' kits. This being said, look at their overall performance. According to champion.gg, they are all in the top 4 champions with the highest overall performances of their own lanes, except Taliyah and Lucian who don't perform so well at the current meta. This means that the most annoying champions are usually the ones who don't get gutted at all, sometimes they even buff them (lookin' at you, Zed with your recent R buff that is ridiculous and tells me that he is Riot's favorite champ...) and have got the most carry and win potential. Or does their carry potential mean that they are annoying?

Trollmanship3/5/2018, 11:52:43 AM10 votes

She never should have been made in the first place.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER3/5/2018, 12:22:55 PM9 votes

She wasn’t gutted for being annoying she was gutted for being straight up broken and one shotting people.

To answer your question, no just because I find a champion annoying doesn’t mean they’re not balanced or don’t have counterplay. So just because “x” is anti fun and annoying doesn’t mean they should immediately be nerfed.

Unless you can provide factual reasons behind why an annoying champion is broken then you have a reason.

Chembaron Yamada3/5/2018, 12:20:34 PM7 votes

If a champion is no problem balancingwise, but annoying to play against, then the champion shouldn't get nerfed, but changed.

Meaning that the champion should get power neutral changes to make them less frustrating to face, but not becoming too weak.


However, that is under the assumption that said champion is not a balancing problem. This does not apply to Zoe.

Zoe was a problem, since the gap between the average players and the top performers was too big. Above 10% difference in winrate is quite huge, it means that they can't properly balance her around every tier of play. She will either be too weak on the average player, or too strong on OTPs.

Heavy adjustments were needed, to try to close the gap here. If they manage to achieve that, she can get buffs again to make her viable on both levels of play. But the changes to her were absolutely needed and justified,

Śhunpo3/5/2018, 2:40:39 PM6 votes

You do know that Zoe is a pick or ban champion, right? Like her kit is seriously that good to warrant that even after her nerfs.

Zoe isn't just annoying, she's stupidly overloaded and overpowered.

Teridax683/5/2018, 4:58:01 PM6 votes

My personal opinion: yes, but only past a certain point.

For literally any given champion, there will be some subset of players who will be annoyed by said champion, no matter how healthy they are. Similarly, there will always be some subset of players who will love this champion and even become attached to them, no matter how uninteresting that champion is. From a math standpoint, League aims to maximize the enjoyment of its players: if a champion is generating more enjoyment than annoyance overall, they could perhaps use some improvements, but do not otherwise need to have their popularity reduced. However, when keeping a champion popular would hurt more players than if that champion were nerfed to become less popular, in view of a rework in the longer term, then that should be an appropriate time to nerf them, even if they're balanced (which isn't the same as being healthy). This will obviously hurt that champion's fanbase, who has a right to be offended, but at the same time that playerbase doesn't really have special status over any other, and so is no more deserving of enjoyment in League than the rest of the game's players, so it shouldn't be a reason to not make that champion less popular when needed.

In Zoe's case, I do think it was justified to nerf her, even to such a harsh degree, because I think she was extremely unhealthy, and continues to be even when she's weak. I completely agree that she tends to warp games around her, just like Kalista and Yasuo, and also just like those champions runs into similar issues where she punishes opponents far too severely and cheaply for even minor mistakes, yet also has a ton of options to recover from her own, far more severe misplays. I personally believe her issues have been apparent since the day she was announced, and should have been acknowledged long before that time, since many of them stem from common problems players have called out repeatedly for literally years now (e.g. her Q acting like a more deadly pre-nerf Nidalee Q, her hard CC+one-shot combo being as frustrating as any other burst mage's, her RNG spells relying on a mechanic most players hate, etc.). Ideally, she should receive changes that allow her to be both healthy and balanced, but those are almost certain to take time and resources, so until then, it's better to weaken her and see what can be done in the short-term to make her feel better without making her too frustrating.

Stars Shaper3/5/2018, 1:10:34 PM5 votes

"Annoying" as well as "Frustrating" are not characterstics that can be put into numbers or universally defined.

To make an example, I find caring about Yasuo available targets for his dash and dodging his tornado far less frustrating than dealing with Caitlyn right clicking me from kingdom come while also being able to jump back and healing back 90% of her HP in 0.85 seconds.

I even find Vayne more enjoyable of an enemy than old Swain or Singed or Volibear and I will always ban Fizz no matter of his balance status.

Adding to the argument: I think that my enemies get extremely frustrated when I catch them with AurelionSol while having item 3030 (sigh) item 3151 item 3116 and they very well know there is no frekaing way to escape death, just ways to delay it.

Critmaster Garen3/5/2018, 12:20:34 PM5 votes

i think she didnt get nerfed for being anoying. zoe got nerfed for being a low risk, high reward champion.

there are no repercussions for missing her q or her e in almost all cases. she can just sit back and try again and again off cooldown. but hitting one on an enemy champion can have a massive payoff.

MorganFreemanBot3/5/2018, 3:36:27 PM5 votes

In short, no. Damn near every champion is annoying if you are playing what they're supposed to be strong against.

One of the most common things I see on the boards, and in game, is people substiting "toxic" for annoying. They're not the same thing, at all. As such one very important point, which is often left out of this discussion, is what 'toxic' gameplay actually means.

Toxic gameplay, the same as what used to be dubbed anti-fun gameplay, is removing interaction from a game / lane. It warps situations to either be foregone conclusions (If X then Y, regardless of player skill) or entirely removes the ability to 'play around' a champion. I'll give you an example:

Pantheon has a toxic kit. He operates on the level of "Is enemy in X range? Enemy receives poke." This is heightened by him having another clause of "Is Enemy with X-Y range? Enemy eats hard CC and an unwinnable all-in trade." There is no real skill expression involved with leveraging his strengths and there's no skill involved with avoiding them. It's purely "step within bubble, get hurt".

This is further exacerbated by the fact that this bubble is not small by any means. Old Darius used to have this design; he had a VERY small zone, but he controlled the hell out of it. This meant that even though 'step within the bubble, get murdered' applied, many champions could effectively harass him from outside of that bubble, or at the very least keep him from getting them within it.

Pantheon doesn't have weakness. His kit removes interaction, creating a dynamic between laners which is purely "don't get within range".

Another good example is old Fiddle Support. Back in S3 fiddle became a top tier support because his Q, when maxed, was a point-and-click hard CC of 3 seconds. It had no travel time, it had no pretenses, just click and apply. This was toxic because you couldn't dive him or his carry (unless you were Olaf), nor could you escape them.

There are more examples (pre-rework heimer, pre-rework assassins, pre-rework Taric, pre-rework-rework-rework Xin)

Annoyance, on the other hand, is Zoe and Yasuo (among others). These champions are healthy from a design perspective; they encourage both players to interact, have defined strengths, and come with incentives to take risks for greater gains.

Despite that a lot of people still hate them. Admittedly they have both had number problems at times, but beyond that people dislike how glaringly obvious their strengths are, as well as their moments of power. It's weird, but a lot of the league community has been conditioned to prefer 'hidden power' in a champion's kit, so long as they know it's there, than blatant displayed power of the same magnitude.

Anyway, to curve back, no. Champions should not be nerfed because people find them annoying, because a lot of people simply dub things they do not enjoy / which counter their playstyle as 'toxic'.

Ahri Baka3/5/2018, 1:12:03 PM4 votes

You know , Zoe kit wasn't annoying, the real annoying part is Zoe herself , her unique design what was annoying , the way how childish she was , the how how she taunts and dances and the way how she sends her Q with Ult , and how she puts her tongue out which kills my nerves , Her kit wasn't the annoying part , I still think Morgana Q is more annoying , at least Zoe E gives you a chance to run and hide behind your team and if an enemy touches you , you will be released at least that's my opinion

taleofsonata3/5/2018, 11:47:13 AM4 votes

Heimerdinger was nerfed for being annoying, yet people doesn't know that you need to move heimerdinger away from his forteress, it takes time to move a heimerdinger but after you clear up his turrets, he isn't even a champion anymore. The nerf on him didn't make any sense...

xelaker3/5/2018, 4:34:45 PM4 votes

playing against most CT champs is a recipe for unfun times

Blakiepug3/5/2018, 5:02:09 PM3 votes

I don't think a champion should be nerfed for being annoying because being "annoying" is extremely subjective. For instance, last winter Tahm Kench was hard nerfed for being annoying whereas other champions like Yasuo who I find to be infinitely more annoying than a Tahm get to keep heir kit. It's the whole reason that I think the class updates were such a failure. They took and changed kits which were loved by many just because a portion of the community felt they were annoying to play against. It leaves players who love to play those champions wondering why their champion was changed for being quote-on-quote "annoying" while other champs that they genuinely hate to play against remain unchanged.

Bisaknosp3/6/2018, 5:28:02 PM3 votes

{quoted}

Every game with Zoe in it become a "Zoe Game" because of how she warped the playstyles of everyone to accommodate for her strengths

isnt/wasnt it the same with Yasuo ?