Did ARAM players actually ask for a "faster" experience?

Sokar468·4/23/2017, 6:05:40 AM·137 votes·36,870 views

Update: Huge thanks to FeralPony for being open to general discussion and suggestions regarding ARAM. Still, I'd like some focus to remain on the changes to super minions specifically, as this is what initially prompted the discussion.


I play only ARAM (2000+ games, +110 win differential) and the pacing of the game mode was never the issue for me. So I'm really curious if other ARAM players actually want a "faster" experience.

For me, the problems with ARAM have always been the outlier champions whose playstyles can be oppressive (e.g., poke, supports like Sona on normal income)*. With the current changes to super minions especially, underdog comps are punished even harder with little chance of a comeback. Yes, it results in a faster game, but the snowballing effect (ahem) can be so dramatic that it seems pointless to play ARAM at all anymore.

Riot says, "sometimes what ends up happening is a tug-of-war of inhibitor pushes till someone really screws up. We want to reduce the scenarios where that happens..." But isn't that League of Legends in a nutshell?

Yeah yeah, you can accuse me of taking ARAM too seriously, but without it I would've given up on League long ago (and thus stopped spending my money on this game).

EDIT 1: Changes to summoner spell cooldowns, health relics, and the addition of Mark were good changes because they made the game more dynamic without holding the winning team's hand and helping them snowball.

EDIT 2 and tl;dr: While it's too early to tell if Riot "ruined" ARAM, the changes are alarming because they assume a kind of gameflow in ARAM that I don't think ARAM players asked for. This is less about making ARAM perfect and more about my concern that Riot didn't communicate with ARAM mains before making these changes.

*Some people claim there are ARAM smurfs. While the number of times I face champs like Ziggs is very suspicious, I'm not gonna claim anything since I don't have any data on it.

314 Comments

KoggyStyle4/23/2017, 7:46:58 AM33 votes

the way i see it , SR mains come to our que to goof off..... filthy casuals.

Tiddy Twister4/23/2017, 3:59:12 PM25 votes

In ARAM: "It's only aram"

In normals: "It's only normals"

In ranked: "It's only a game"

RiotFeralPony4/24/2017, 10:52:25 PM22 votes

So there is a lot here in this thread, some good suggestions and feedback as well, and I'll try to answer as much as I can. Myself and ManWolfAxeBoss were the primary Devs on the recent update so I'm happy to discuss the changes. We also worked on the last set of changes about a year ago as well so I can provide some context on those as well if folks are curious.

I'll jump more into some specific subthreads but I'll answer a few of the reoccurring questions first.

Did ARAM players even ask for shorter games?

  • Frankly, yes. The feedback was pretty consistent and overwhelming that the vast majority of ARAM players not only want shorter ARAM games but frequently queue for ARAM when want a shorter game length than other game modes. The average game time for ARAM was reaching just above 25 minutes, with many more games than we'd like going over the 35 and even the 40 minute mark. In short, many ARAM games were longer than many SR games which we felt was not appropriate and didn't match player expectations jumping into the queue.

Were these changes on PBE?

  • These changes were indeed on PBE before shipping, I know many of you don't have PBE access and the changes were easy to lose in the Xayah / Rakan reveals but they were there.

Will there be a followup patch?

  • We'll be looking at doing another small followup patch, but not until 7.10. Not only are ARAM games incredibly volatile and hard to read data-wise 7.9 is the midseason patch which will once again shake things up.

What are the initial results on Game Time?

  • Average Game Time has dropped on ARAM since the patch ~2 minutes but not uniformly, the bell curve did change shape. There are noticeably less games running really long and more in the low to mid 20 minutes territory. Essentially some of the tail of the graph got pushed into the middle

What about early snowballing?

  • While there are incredibly snowbally and stompy ARAM games this doesn't appear to have shifted noticeably since the changes. There were snowbally stompy games before and after the patch. This doesn't appear to have changed significantly.

X/Y Champion got way too strong / weak with the changes, what gives?

  • Early data here is pretty unreliable but after going over the initial data there don't seem to be consistent reliable correlations in the changes this patch. There was indeed a lot of movement, but there tends to be a ton of noise unsurprisingly in this data. When looking at trends there are some correlations but they tend to be weak at best and a bit forced. Some champions with strong wave clear went up, some went down. Some targon users went up, others down. Some traditionally OP ARAM champions went up while others went down.

Will you take suggestions / improvement ideas for the follow up?

  • Absolutely, but both myself and ManWolf work entirely within the gameplay space so we won't be looking at anything involving how the queue works, matchmaking, or free champions etc. So any changes would be In game only, sorry. I'll post a small list of our current thoughts as we formulate our plans for 7.10 and suggestions come in.

This post is already super long so I'll stop there and discuss stuff more in individual threads.

Pierce The Veal4/23/2017, 7:38:52 AM21 votes

{quoted}

I play only ARAM (2000+ games, +110 win differential) and the pacing of the game mode was never the issue for me. So I'm really curious if other ARAM players actually want a "faster" experience.

For me, the problems with ARAM have always been the outlier champions whose playstyles can be oppressive (e.g., poke, supports like Sona on normal income)*. With the current changes to super minions especially, underdog comps are punished even harder with little chance of a comeback. Yes, it results in a faster game, but the snowballing effect (ahem) can be so dramatic that it seems pointless to play ARAM at all anymore.

Riot says, "sometimes what ends up happening is a tug-of-war of inhibitor pushes till someone really screws up. We want to reduce the scenarios where that happens..." But isn't that League of Legends in a nutshell?

Yeah yeah, you can accuse me of taking ARAM too seriously, but without it I would've given up on League long ago (and thus stopped spending my money on this game).

*Some people claim there are ARAM smurfs. While the number of times I face champs like Ziggs is very suspicious, I'm not gonna claim anything since I don't have any data on it.

If anything that tug of war is insanely fun. Looks like Rito's walking the path of Dominion with ARAM.

arc954/23/2017, 3:35:07 PM16 votes

Dear Riot,

ARAM is perfect dont touch ARAM

unless you're going to unlock all champions on every account in ARAM

sincerely arc95

PlsCheckThisBush4/23/2017, 7:12:26 AM14 votes

Hey! I actually just played a game with you - I'm an avid ARAM-only player myself. I was the Gnar when you went AD Lulu (as our team lacked any real AD - thank you for doing this by the way!). And thank you for posting this, hopefully it's able to grab some attention and be able to make a more enjoyable experience for everyone!

I'm not sure what exactly the ARAM changes were meant for honestly. The new AD and Armor on Super Minions combined with the bonus Movement Speed they grant all enemy champions tends to make it a far more snowbally (heh) experience. The removal of Relic Shield, Ancient Coin, and Spellthief's Edge I feel helped push this along even further, where champions like Nasus who could abuse Relic Shield and attempt to go a stacking build to be relevant faster is now pushed harder into the AP or full tank role, making it far less diverse.

I feel that before these changes there was a much more healthy balance of "pick-up roles" and less of the "You got Ziggs? Sweet you auto-win once you grab the inhibitor." It's definitely frustrating trying to keep team morale up and even harder with Super Minions rushing into the base at such a rapid rate. It's almost as if we absolutely have to have a Sivir, Syndra (throwing them into the Nexus), or someone similar just to keep the minions from automatically winning the game at that point. While I don't mind the minions spawning sooner as well as Health Relics and free minion gold (ayy I can play Janna and get free gold!), I don't exactly enjoy that any champion that relies on SOME form of items feels absolutely useless now, as there will likely never be a time where late game is even remotely reached.

Having a killer teamfighting comp for late game seems far less appealing now. Playing Orianna, Kog'Maw, Vladimir, etc. seems rough if the enemy team has any remote form of poke, as they will just kill us under tower at that point. I've been fortunate enough to play Xayah 2-3 times so far, and nearly every time I have faced the likes of Ziggs, Syndra, Sona, or other "I guaranteed win against you" sort of champions. It sort of ruins the fun, as even the best orbwalking and positioning is quickly displaced by the classic "I'm walking up and throwing all my abilities, good luck" tactic.

I definitely feel there are "ARAM smurfs" as well, as the number of games where I run into Ziggs, Lux, Varus, Zyra, Ezreal, Sona, etc. seems a bit atrocious. I personally don't even own them on this account as I find them very un-fun in ARAM and I find it tends to ruin the experience for both parties. Sure I can sit back and press E on Lux until great victory or roll my face along the keyboard as Sona, but it's not very rewarding and feels that RNGesus blessed us with a free win rather than actually having a fun team fighting map. I don't have any numbers for the ultra-poke heavy ARAM smurf accounts either, however it's a bit awkward seeing them nearly every game and without having a similar setup on your team it almost forces you to surrender the first turret - inevitably forcing all the Health Relics to be surrendered as well as giving the enemy team a significant amount of breathing room to advance forward. The amount of dodges compounds this problem as well - especially the 0-1 second dodgers.

I'd love to actually have some responses from other ARAM players (and hopefully Riot) and perhaps work together to develop a healthier system, as currently it doesn't feel very rewarding to play. I'm almost always expecting the RNG giving one team a clear advantage, however having 1 completed item against a team with 4 isn't even fun at that point. The Super Minions are quite ridiculous, and if far behind will easily solo a melee non-tank (or an ADC that steps too close). It feels as if Syndra is the best champion to deal with them now being able to throw them into the Nexus, which just feels wrong as it's sacrificing much-needed Gold at that point in the game and further making that feeling of a guaranteed loss only more reassuring. I thoroughly enjoy games where it's a slug-fest and both teams feel they accomplish something; I'd much prefer to have 10 Braums whacking at each other in the middle of the map than the current state. It doesn't feel very healthy for either team, as Tanks never get to the point of being relevant (unless supplemented by free assists from other poke champions) and any non-Tank without a safe form of poke is rendered nearly useless - aside from the exceptions of Master Yi and similar champions that can 1v5 in the right situation.

Again, thanks for posting this and hopefully it draws the attention of a few eyes that can work towards making a positive experience for everyone. I know I wouldn't have continued playing League without ARAM's being around either, and I'm sure there are many others in the same boat. We're in the top 1% of ARAM players from MMR (although I don't really care about MMR, only using it for context) and I feel that our opinions are based around experience (as well as a TON of ARAM games) and not a "NERF LEE SIN PLS" sort of tone, so I hope that people will understand that and be able to provide some constructive thoughts here!

TheLastShadow454/23/2017, 6:59:57 AM12 votes

The only issue I had with ARAM was the turrets. In a gamemode that is 5v5 always, I always felt they did to little damage at about 10 minutes into the game. That and their aggroing is pretty bad sometimes.

Also, those brushes in between the front two turrets are what allow turret diving to be pretty easy and I think they should go.

Only Play Darius4/23/2017, 7:35:56 PM12 votes

It's not fun anymore. If you play a diver/skirmisher/juggernaut/ any champion that can't clear waves or fight 5v5 before meaningful items you just sit back while they melt your towers and by the time you are durable enough to do something you already have super minions attacking your nexus turrets.

SlaktarTasken4/23/2017, 10:39:47 AM11 votes

If anything the ability to come back in ARAM after having being bullied by retarded teamcomps while you're playing an odd teamcomp was the only reason to play ARAM. Now those full mage 1 adc teams will just faceroll, those 3 support 2 adc comps will just faceroll, every cancer comp with Ziggs, Nidalee, (insert other demented mage) in it will faceroll.

Because there is not a living chance in hell those full tank/ fighter/ diver comps will be able so scale up enough since they always flatly get fucked in the early game getting instantly focused down if they try to make a move and endlessly poked out since they have no tools to answer before they have the defenses to do so.

Being able to come back was the only saving grace of playing odd (bad) teamcomps and now were removing that?

WHAT THE FLYING FUCK RIOT?!

Erractic Eick4/23/2017, 8:42:40 PM9 votes

To me, as an almost ARAM exclusive player, part of the fun of ARAM was the potential for wild comebacks that result from stalling with inhibitors. It's a feeling that is much harder to recreate on Summoner's Rift, and it's important to the game mode because if the game was tough and well fought, even losing can be fun.

I'm not an expert on Balance, and I'm not a very experienced player, only having been here since season 5 started, but creating faster games in ARAM reduces the frantic fun resulting from trying to close down a game before your opponents stall out and make a comeback.

Chaos Milk Tea4/23/2017, 4:42:23 PM3 votes

When ARAM is longer than summoner's rift, yeah. That's a problem.

HaIlMonitor4/23/2017, 7:33:05 AM1 votes

If they wanted to fix ARAMS they could make it "not so random". Making where teams cant roll Sona Soraka and both teams get a more balanced team. Nothing worst then when one team gets lux, ziggs, cait, Raka, and Amumu and your team consist of a bunch of garbage melee's that get poked out under tower. That makes the games go longer because the one team is afraid to leave tower, and the other cant kill it super fast. More fights, more gold, faster games.