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Re: Some thought on Support (@Meddler)

Mârty·11/15/2016, 2:58:28 AM·30 votes·2,425 views

Hi!

Since this is a hot topic I'd like to throw in my two cents on some Support role improvements, current frustrations, and ideas on alleviating those frustrations.

Itemization

With respect to enchanters (Janna, Sona, Lulu, Nami, Karma sort of), i.e. champions whose kits are most powerful when used to augment an ally, their identity very quickly converges as late game approaches. Items like redemption, crucible, locket etc. do not improve each of their kits. Instead, they offer the same active effect for each, all of which don't actually improve the champions kit - they exist independently and as a result they normalize how each champion feels towards late game.

It doesn't matter if I'm playing Nami, Janna, Sona, or Lulu. They're doing the same shit in a late game team fight: locket, crucible, redemption applied. They feel the same. Each enchanter's individual identity is not enhanced by items.

Enchanters need a better support from item builds. Stop making them build health and forced resistances, it's weird. Crucible is a good support item, but it forces MR on you. Chalice is such a feel-bad early game purchase that now offers health regen for champions who don't care much about it. Unholy Grail is a great concept, but has a terrible build path and feels bad on champions who can't always deal direct damage.

Solutions

Items for enchanters need to stop giving health, let them build AP. Enchanters have a ton of cool scaling that nobody even knows about.

Did you know Janna's shield's AD buff and slow power scales with AP? Did you know Nami's passive, E slow, and W bounce modify % scales with AP?

Utility scaling was the best idea ever implemented (back in S4) but it was never expanded on. Utility scaling lets each support feel unique. When I purchase AP, I can feel my kit's power and my choice in champion select is more meaningful.

I picked nami because I want to dish out fat heals in a fight, while dishing out fat damage and lots of CC. I picked Janna because I want to dish out a really fat shield and a really fat AoE heal at a cost of putting out damage myself. I picked Sona because I want to augment the hell out of my entire team. I picked Lulu because I want to specifically augment one hyper carry on my team beyond belief.

That identity means far less because items built don't support them as late game approaches.

Sightstone - Being forced to pick up a ruby crystal before leading to sightstone feels bad. I don't want health all the time. I want to be able to choose which stat to start with.

Let a sightstone be built out of more items. Amplifying tome -> Sightstone, Sapphire Crystal -> Sightstone would be great starts. The Eye items were a good concept, and personally I enjoyed building EOTW. I don't have an exact mapping of how new starting sightstones can evolve into eye items, but the main point here is sightstones need to not force health on users. Let us choose what stat we want to purchase early.

Redemption - This item has a cool concept, but it's weird. Crystalline bracer is just not something that feels good to buy on janna, sona, nami, lulu, or karma. These champions are not bracing a ton of damage, and yet redemption offers 400 (!) health, AND heal/shield power. That means tank supports (braum, thresh, alistar) find the heal/shield power a bit of a lame buy, and enchanters find the health a lame buy. It's inefficient for both parties, but the active was made disgustingly good in return.

Split it up into two items, let one offer AP/heal and shield power for enchanters, and let the other provide tank stats like health/armor/mr etc.

Ardent Censer - Of all the enchanters items, this is one that has the best build path and most satisfying completion. The only problem here is Lulu's wild growth isn't affected by the heal/shield power, OR windspeakers. If you want Lulu to be a support, wild growth needs to be listed as an exception. Let the bonus health be affected by heal/shield power increases.

Chalice of Harmony - This item has gone through a few reworks this year. Get rid of it's MR, and stop giving it health regen. Both items built out of chalice are enchanter items, it needs to give CDR. It has to be a justifiable early purchase, and athene's build path is garbage at the moment because of chalice.

Giving chalice CDR, maybe even some AP would be glorious. Give it some unique passive that benefits enchanters in laning, and let that passive translate into either crucible's high-power active, or athene's high-power passive.

Athene's Unholy Grail - Great concept, shit build path. Feels like garbage until you complete the item. I personally would like to see blood charges gained from also applying CC to enemy champions to benefit kits that offer a bit less damage but heavier CC though the conversion rate might be a bit complex to create. In any case, fixing chalice will make this item more attractive to purchase.

Mikael's Crucible - This item still doesn't give AP. I don't know why. It is clearly tailored towards enchanters since it offers heal/shield power, but heal/shield power doesn't buff utility scalings. Chalice improvements would indirectly improve crucible as well. Remove the MR, give it some AP, and then separate the identities of crucible and athene's based on what I need that game (direct, burst heal+cc cleanse or battle-based sustain?).

Utility Deathcap - We need a late game dream buy. There isn't some high-power spike that exists for enchanters. Tank supports get beefier with every purchase and their tank stats multiply with each other. Enchanters just get... more actives. That exist independently of each other.

We need a straight-utility buffer. It's stats should be raw AP and a unique passive.

+120 AP Unique Passive: AP that scales utility is improved by a further 35%.

This would be cheaper than a death cap, accessible for supports, tailors specifically to enchanters, rounds out previously purchased items, and would feel damn satisfying to purchase.

Frost Queen's Claim - This item saw a ton of nerfs because mid laners started purchasing it. Make FQC great again - buff its stats, raw ap, etc. In exchange, only allow a player to upgrade frost fang to FQC after reaching a certain threshold with tribute's passive. Mid laners will have a very difficult time stacking up frostfang, whereas supports can do it easily. This lets the item be powerful without seeing it appear in mid lane builds. Jungle items are gold efficient but locked to smite, let's lock support items to the very thing that defines them - gold generating items.

Possible Concerns as a result of these changes

Of course, suggesting so many ways to improve utility and shield/heal power can result in overwhelmingly powerful shields/heals. I personally think the game would be more exciting if enchanters were more squishy but threatening targets. For example, Soraka is often seen as a frustrating as hell champion to play against. Largely that's because she's hard to kill - since she's buying tank items.

If Soraka had the potential to dish out a ton of heals, but had 1.6k hp, the counter play is very clear - kill her. She will die fast. Soraka has seen a ton of nerfs, but look at her most common build paths. There's a ton of items that improve her defences. She's frustrating as hell.

Base shield/heal powers should be reduced, and have their AP ratios buffed slightly to encourage the building of AP to make enchanters more powerful. It's more fun for everyone - they're easier to kill, and the user is providing visible, heavy impact shields/heals/utility.

Other support frustration points

Vision Game - With respect to enchanters, often keeping up with the vision game becomes very difficult. The new vision plants, frost queens claim (pre-nerf), and blue trinket have all helped that. Unfortunately, a soraka just can't secure vision as well as a thresh/bard/alistar etc. Soraka just isn't threatening to run into, yet supports are expected to be the vision controllers.

Enchanters need a few more tools to allow them to control vision - or, help distribute that responsibility across the entire team.

Levelling - Supports are always under levelled. When everyone is hitting level 11, I'm still level 8/9. As a result, everyone's ultimates are coming up 15-20% faster than mine, meaning I literally can not keep up with the flow of the game. Ward experience was not a great solution either as it basically says "Build red trinket or fuck you supports".

Possible solutions include allowing gold generating items to provide XP if you are behind in levels, but something needs to be done to allow supports to keep up in levels a bit better.

Pink Wards - A very powerful vision control tool, it costs us an item slot. Not only are supports already expected to buy more pinks than anyone else, they are expected to devote an entire item slot to it. This is a compounding issue that stems from other problems (bad itemization, expected vision control) but it needs to be addressed. It feels bad knowing I'm limited to four items because 2 of those are taken up by boots/pink wards. A solution for this needs to be discussed.

This is definitely not a comprehensive list, but these are great starting points for Riot to begin identifying the issue with the support role. I would love it if enchanters were the chosen class for a rework pass in mid-season 7 patch.

I'd love to engage with discussion/feedback as these are just my opinions as an enchanter player since season 2. Looking forward to your thoughts!

-Janna Mechanics

46 Comments

Lucifer11/15/2016, 3:29:22 AM5 votes

Agree very much on redemption. That item needs two build paths. It's kind of weird that almost all of the new season changes appeal to tank supports, when those were already the ones dominating the meta in the first place.

LostFr0st11/15/2016, 3:16:53 AM3 votes

It's really cool to see such a comprehensive post.

Forgive my ignorance on the support role as a whole, but do you think Riot would be able to implement such changes without splitting up AP into two groups as they did with armor pen and lethality?

Poop Jelly11/15/2016, 3:06:56 AM3 votes

Bingo.

As a utility/enchanter support main, I felt like the point was well-taken. Though as unique and mechanically different as each of them is, overall you still have to do similar things as the game come closer to an end. If there would ever be a support rework (really carefully using the word 'rework'), give them a unique role-playing identity like the new assassins.

Danjeng11/16/2016, 2:40:44 AM2 votes

Not bashing on a support's ideas, but how would your support's Rabadon's work? How would an ability's utilityness be determined? It would be difficult to program such an item. Some mages have scaling shields, and would love to rush this item. Also, there are alternative ward items besides Sightstone. But I agree with you that there should be some way to utilize support's AP scalings.

PenguinOverlord811/16/2016, 6:22:00 AM2 votes

Everything about this post is so yes! I agree with almost everything you have said about the Enchanter sub-class. I am an ex-lulu main who has Nami and Lulu is my most played champs but I never thought about how boring their itemization is.

I also think part of the problem comes intrinsically from how supports play overall but the gap between player bases is still too high. I am slowly playing more jungle than support right now but here are some of my least favorite aspects of the role-

1.Vision denial is so high. Getting rid of up gradable yellow trinkets and the green ward hurt vision a lot, then they took a ward off sighstone, then here comes the control ward which outright disables wards, and scryers bloom which is amazing for clearing wards (also you could make a point for raptor buff but rip @ that ) . Warding is just more difficult now.

2.I started playing when Bard was released but like haven't supports always been paired with adc's? It would be nice to shake things up if supports supported other roles. The problem of supports constantly only being with adc's is kind of really complex and not some easy fix but if riot could pull it off that could be super fun.

Erockandroll11/15/2016, 6:12:24 AM2 votes

too many problems with some of your suggestions. Namely the problem with throwing on a bunch of raw stats onto the support items. You can just throw AP on everything, Riot excluded the chalice line for much of the AP because they wanted it out of the hands of Midlaners. Restricting when people get FQC is just horrible, It would also make it incredibly hard to balance over multiple ELO's base on availability to proc it. And honestly, if your not building FQC for the active, don't take it over Eye of the watchers. Eye gives you the CDR, the mana regen, the vision, and you save about 800 gold and one slot, than if you built a sight stone and FQC. (Almost enough to buy a blasting wand which would make up the difference in AP. And don't actually feel obligated to build the support items. (except your sight stone) If you want the utility from a support item, build the item. If you want to bolster your own, build AP. Simple as that.

Here's my counter propose to the whole "Supports got no AP" argument. Considering that supports seem unable to afford AP itemization, and Riot can't overload support items with AP without breaking them. You just need an item that grants AP for doing supportive things. (like getting assists) Secondly, even if your a mage or enchanter, you don't really need the AP to do your job. It's merely icing on the cake. (Supports are never feast or famine) So you need an item that is cheap, grants AP with assists, but if you lose that AP it's not the end of the world. May I present to you, Mejia's Soul Stealer. (Pro Janna build approved)

Pukla Kupli Kipp11/15/2016, 8:02:35 AM2 votes

I totally agree with your sentiment regarding Enchanter itemization. It's either** we have to build tanky utility items and have shitty healing/shielding, or we build flat AP items and totally neglect the useful actives/passives on the support items**. I really hope that they can make more AP/Utility items that focus on enhancing allies, which would prevent mid laners from abusing them.

item 3504 is really the only item I see that really cater to the enchanters effectively and gives a nice buff to enchanter heal/shields.

I see potential in item 3174 , but they should readjust the stats to give + Heal/Shield Power and shred off the excess CDR.

Wolfeur11/15/2016, 10:10:04 AM2 votes

I think that a completely new stat designed for enchanters would be nice.

Imagine something like Enchanting Power (EP) that would be available through items/masteries/etc…

Then give the kits special scaling with it, so that Soraka has a better scaling on the heals, Janna a better shield/bonus AD, Nami better CCs, etc… It would emphasize each one's speciality and keep the items far from the mages.

You could also have AP+EP scalings, for better itemization choices (best utility or more upfront damage) and even an item with a mechanic that ties them (EP gives AP or something like this). Zeke could find a niche as a situational EP monster boost, for example. Give us a sightstone alternative with EP instead of health.

Phant0mHawk11/15/2016, 11:10:25 AM2 votes

When I first started playing ranked (on one of my other accounts), there was no position select so I had to know all the roles. Often I’d get put in support; at first I was going aggressive supports until I played a little bit of Janna. I would build her full ap with a mejai’s and if I managed to not die until mid-late game I would get to give out 800 point shields with a bf sword to my adc of similar size and availability to late game ryze. If I would position correctly, I’d be rewarded with the ability to be very impactful in the game. If I miss positioned, I’d die and lose all my ap. One thing I’d like to point out is that even current deathcap is as desired on utility supports as it is on mid-laners. Mid-laners need to buy pen to do damage while utility supports simply want to stack ap because they are there to provide as much utility as possible without getting caught. The problem is, mid- laners are taking their items so the ap has to be nerfed to prevent oppressive use of support items in mid lane. I definitely agree with you on the point that supports are not being played because they do not feel as impactful or unique late game compared to other champ classes. I left a few comments below on specific ideas that you posted.

[{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MdYaqnPE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-15T02:58:28.029+0000)

Solutions

Items for enchanters need to stop giving health, let them build AP. Enchanters have a ton of cool scaling that nobody even knows about.

Did you know Janna's shield's AD buff and slow power scales with AP? Did you know Nami's passive, E slow, and W bounce modify % scales with AP?

Utility scaling was the best idea ever implemented (back in S4) but it was never expanded on. Utility scaling lets each support feel unique. When I purchase AP, I can feel my kit's power and my choice in champion select is more meaningful.

I picked nami because I want to dish out fat heals in a fight, while dishing out fat damage and lots of CC. I picked Janna because I want to dish out a really fat shield and a really fat AoE heal at a cost of putting out damage myself. I picked Sona because I want to augment the hell out of my entire team. I picked Lulu because I want to specifically augment one hyper carry on my team beyond belief.

That identity means far less because items built don't support them as late game approaches.

Agreed, ap utility supports should stack ap and should be squishy.

Sightstone - Being forced to pick up a ruby crystal before leading to sightstone feels bad. I don't want health all the time. I want to be able to choose which stat to start with.

Let a sightstone be built out of more items. Amplifying tome -Sightstone, Sapphire Crystal -Sightstone would be great starts. The Eye items were a good concept, and personally I enjoyed building EOTW. I don't have an exact mapping of how new starting sightstones can evolve into eye items, but the main point here is sightstones need to not force health on users. Let us choose what stat we want to purchase early.

Agreed, you should be able to get early ap from a sightstone for which he ap sightstone item would build into ward items of similar stats to what we have now. Sightstone would either build out of health crystal or amp tome.

Mikael's Crucible - This item still doesn't give AP. I don't know why. It is clearly tailored towards enchanters since it offers heal/shield power, but heal/shield power doesn't buff utility scalings. Chalice improvements would indirectly improve crucible as well. Remove the MR, give it some AP, and then separate the identities of crucible and athene's based on what I need that game (direct, burst heal+cc cleanse or battle-based sustain?).

This item, I have always wanted to buy it but never understood who the build path or stats were designed for. Tanks supports want the resistances and the active to save their carries but the item builds out of nothing but faerie charms. Ap supports can use the mana regen and cdr but cannot use much of the other stats. Removing the mr and replacing it with about 40 ap would make it more useful for its buyers.

Utility Deathcap - We need a late game dream buy. There isn't some high-power spike that exists for enchanters. Tank supports get beefier with every purchase and their tank stats multiply with each other. Enchanters just get... more actives. That exist independently of each other.

I’m not sure it is needed but it would be cool I guess. I think the regular deathcap would actually be buyable if other support items gave ap to help with support scaling. Adding the utility scaling may bring back obnoxious picks like bruiser karma top with void staff full tank and utility deathcap.

Frost Queen's Claim - This item saw a ton of nerfs because mid laners started purchasing it. Make FQC great again - buff its stats, raw ap, etc. In exchange, only allow a player to upgrade frost fang to FQC after reaching a certain threshold with tribute's passive. Mid laners will have a very difficult time stacking up frostfang, whereas supports can do it easily. This lets the item be powerful without seeing it appear in mid lane builds. Jungle items are gold efficient but locked to smite, let's lock support items to the very thing that defines them - gold generating items.

This is an awesome idea, maybe even give it 40 ap with tribute passive scaling it to 60 ap once fully stacked or something along those lines.

Vision Game - With respect to enchanters, often keeping up with the vision game becomes very difficult. The new vision plants, frost queen's claim (pre-nerf), and blue trinket have all helped that. Unfortunately, a soraka just can't secure vision as well as a thresh/bard/alistar etc. Soraka just isn't threatening to run into, yet supports are expected to be the vision controllers.

Enchanters need a few more tools to allow them to control vision - or, help distribute that responsibility across the entire team.

I too think the main concern with lategame warding for utility supports is that it’s too dangerous to do their job. Part of what makes Zyra such a good support is that her plants provide temporary vision so that she never has to facecheck bushes. If the ap warding item “eye of the watchers” had a 30 second cooldown charge for a 1 second ward, it could be used to scout the way for them before face checking, giving unique benefits specify tailored to their role. Similar to talons q, if activated at a longer range, it would use the temporary ward whereas using it at a shorter range would use up a sightstone ward and one of its charges.

some cute girl11/15/2016, 1:23:01 PM2 votes

I would love more build options, but it would be nice to have them alongside what we have now. I think if an itemization change like this were to happen, we would lose a lot of the tank choices available. Redemption and Knight's Vow are a good start.

I enjoy going full tank almost every game, but I can understand why someone would hate that if they're playing Nami.

Hyrum Graff11/15/2016, 6:45:44 PM2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MdYaqnPE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-15T02:58:28.029+0000)

Of course, suggesting so many ways to improve utility and shield/heal power can result in overwhelmingly powerful shields/heals. I personally think the game would be more exciting if enchanters were more squishy but threatening targets

100% agree with this. Enchanters and adcs should be like Medic and Heavy in tf2 (or the equivalent in damn near any other fps): Everybody knows you don't focus the heavy (unless you can burst him down); you take out the medic and THEN you take out the heavy.

And honestly, if Enchanters were so excellent at their job (keeping squishies alive) that you had to kill them before you could get the squishy -- then it would be OK to tone down marksmen a little bit

DemainaNyx11/15/2016, 3:32:08 AM2 votes

I like the idea of a extra support dream item. Maybe a tank item that adds 10% health and armor or like you said a deathcap that enhances your AP but you need to have a sightstone or maybe support item to buy these items.

That way if mid or top wants to buy this item, they have to dedicate another item slot to having this item.

Silverjust11/16/2016, 10:13:52 AM1 votes

I think Soraka should get the item 3083 -passive worked into her kit (maybe unlocked on 3rd lvl of the Ultimate or something) Then she would not build that tanky to get that lategame item 3083

Raxistaicho11/15/2016, 4:14:58 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna Mechanics,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MdYaqnPE,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-15T02:58:28.029+0000)

Hi!

Since this is a hot topic I'd like to throw in my two cents on some Support role improvements, current frustrations, and ideas on alleviating those frustrations.

I'm going to cut you off right from the start to answer the question that's eluding Meddler, and possibly you as well.

The reason people don't like to support isn't because of the feel-good-ness of what you're doing (contrary to popular belief, allies will notice multi-man Sona ults, they'll notice a Soraka or a Janna that prevents their team dying, and they'll abso-f***ing-lutely notice a Blitzcrank with a godhand), it's not because of their itemization or gold issues (which is an unfixable problem as I'll detail ahead), it's not because of leveling, it's because they're the team goat. That's the nature of being a support, you don't win on your own, you help other players win unless you're playing Vel'Koz, Zyra, or Brand. Most people who play League like to win, and if you wanna win you have to carry, and supports don't carry directly, they carry by proxy.

(Oh, and they also get to spend the first 10 minutes of the game paired up with the right-clickers, the class that attracts the stupidest, most vain, and whiniest of players. You bet your ass I look forward to when bot outer falls so I can spend the mid game helping our mid or top instead)

With that out of the way...

Why do you have such a rage boner for building durability on enchanters? You keep saying that getting tanky doesn't "feel good" but in my opinion staying alive feels great and dying feels like garbage. Since most enchanters are geared around the notion of keeping somebody ELSE on their team alive, they're wasting their purpose if they use their abilities to protect themselves, and if they're building squishy, they're going to be an incidental target in team fights pretty easily.

HazyCloud711/15/2016, 10:41:07 AM1 votes

Janna presently has a 55% win rate with the 2nd highest play rate among supports, I don't even want to imagine what playing against her with a cheap utility-deathcap on top of winspeakers and all of the other healing support items would be like. Her base shield/ult values would have to be drastically nerfed to balance something like that out.

I generally agree that healer/ranged AP supports shouldn't be shoe-horned into building tanky though. Redemption's active is absolutely busted, I have no idea what in the world they were thinking when they designed it.

The Yetii Rider11/15/2016, 1:35:13 PM1 votes

If Chalice had AP mages would build it.

FakeGravity11/15/2016, 7:47:23 PM1 votes

what if instead just like items now increase shields and heals we let items scale utility directly

let janna give more ad and nidalee give more attack speed to some degree? make slows stronger and speed buff too, but remove the ap scaling?

StrangerL11/15/2016, 11:51:11 PM1 votes

Another thing about item

Can we have 3 eyes of xx sightstone be the 3 paths of sightstone upgrade? Instead of gold generating, give each of them a unique passive for different types of support. So, support can choose how they are going to upgrade their sightstone and still have that gold generating +active item at the same time. I just hate that Ruby sightstone is the only way that I can upgrade that sightstone especially if I decided to get frost queen or tailsman.

Lord Desert11/15/2016, 3:02:16 AM1 votes

Can I convince you to include a trinket for Control Wards? So we sups can finaly have 6 itemsslots again! That would be my greatest wish for improving the support playstyle!