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If you're changing Veigar...

A Tall Joke·1/19/2015, 9:41:30 PM·35 votes·3,840 views

Hi, Veigar main here. I've mained him since I started playing end of season II and got to Gold II maining him season 3. Not much has changed for him (other than the increase in assassins and mobility and some minor buildpath changes which weren't really Veigar-targeted) since I started playing the game so I'm not really sure about the direction Riot intends to take him in but I thought I'd give my input.

Identity

  1. Infinite scaling. It's the primary thing that drew me to Veigar and kept me playing him; there's a certain draw to the infinite potential power that Veigar has. So, when Veigar has very little that other mages can't do, this is the one thing that keeps Veigar awesome.
  2. Immobile, traditional mage. Veigar is as traditional a mage as you get. He dons the traditional FF I Black Mage inspired robe and hat, wields a staff, is immobile, has cast times (W and E), and deals a lot of damage, both to single targets and in an area.
  3. Burst damage. This is a tough one because Veigar can be really frustrating to play against. You get hit by a stun and by the time it's over, you're dead, no doubt. But this is definitely a core component of Veigar's identity and it is a large part of his gameplay pattern.

Kit Passive: This needs to change. All other champions with mana based passives are at least getting rewarded for interaction. Veigar's passive is 100% passive and his ridiculously high mana costs are balanced around having a passive that recovers mana. His mana costs need to be rescaled and he needs a new passive that actually affects his gameplay patterns (because emptying your mana so you get more mana isn't a gameplay pattern)

To be honest, both thematcally and gameplay-wise, a passive like Cassiopeia's new passive would've fit well, giving him distinct points in the game at which he improves (and consuming your soul to get strong is pretty Veigar-esque) and building up to be a hyper-carry.

Q: is completely fine. This makes Veigar Veigar.

W: With the high delay before it lands, it almost certainly has to be used in conjunction with E to hit someone. The only utility it provides is a moment of vision, controlling enemy pathing (which E does very well anyway) and discouraging chases (only time it'll land without E support). Otherwise, it's raw damage that's not very exciting.

E: is probably Veigar's best skill and the only thing that keeps him viable. Landing it perfectly can be challenging with a lot of moving pieces in team fights (or Fizz jumping around the map) and it's equally rewarding. No complaints here, other than the egregious weakness to QSS (but veigar gets it better than Malz so he's fine).

R: Single target burst which maintains his identity as a traditional, burst caster. Neither good nor bad.

I'm of mixed feelings about the enemy AP scaling. On one hand, it provides a mechanism for Veigar to pull back when he's behind which is bound to happen. On the other hand... It punishes enemies for doing exactly what they should be doing. It also creates a weird power dichotomy where Veigar may be slaughtering AP champions 20 mins into the game but AD champions can get out unscathed, making him weirdly extra-weak to AD assassins. It's a weird purely champion and build based strength/weakness. This also expends a lot of his power budget unnecessarily. Later in the game, anyone who builds enough AP for this to be significant will melt regardless. But this takes away opportunities for power elsewhere in Veigar's kit.

Primary points to target are his Passive and his W; removing target AP scaling from his ultimate can provide an extra lever to better his balance around (though his ult becomes incredibly boring at that point).

EDIT: One more vital thing I forgot to point out: CDR!!! My typical build was Athene's > DFG which meant early game turtling to mid-game kill potential. with 35% after masteries, I could minimize my downtime between bursts and maximize my Q farm. There is now a gaping CDR hole in Veigar's life that does sort of desperately need to be filled.

58 Comments

Chaotic Reks1/20/2015, 12:35:49 AM23 votes

How to buff veigar: Step one: GIVE HIM BACK HIS FUCKING LAUGH

1st HanarSpectre1/19/2015, 10:29:51 PM11 votes

Primordial burst is a bad spell. It's one of the only spells in the game that punishes your enemy for doing well. Add the fact that it's on a champion that can farm AP independently of items AND has good scaling of his own, you get a really, really dumb combo.

I would be fine if veigar were an anti caster, even if riot claims to hate "anti X" counterpick champions, if it weren't for the fact that Veigar can also easily 100-0 an AD champion with 0 AP, why even add that feature at this point.

Veigar IS a problematic champion, the only reason he has avoided further nerfs is because he's not that commonly picked.

A Superb Villain1/20/2015, 1:17:41 AM5 votes

http://i.imgur.com/GY8bpWR.jpg

Decrit1/19/2015, 10:24:06 PM4 votes

Hey man! Veigar favourite champ here, playing him since end of S2, shared my toughts on other posts.

I feel like you are right on most stuff, however if i must drop my toughts...

  1. the passive is a bit less passive than you think: this is not a mere mana regen instrument but one that changes dinamically during the game: it can allow you to keep casting and regenerating loads of mana while at low % and keep farming Q, plus giving a different mana swing to him. Sure, is not a real "buff" for him since he pays it with high mana costs, but a player can play around it with itemization.

  2. i think the scaling must remain traditional without weird architectures like the cassiopeia one that only delays uselessly his powers and add unnecessary mechanics

3)I like W as it is now. Remember when the delay was even bigger? that' s when landing an E was necessary, but actually i manage to land a lot of W on an enemy by predicting him. Sure, sometimes is the enemy that is a doofus but the good thing about W is that it is a psycological attack: you can trap him in a way, force him to take more steps, force him to choose to pick a creep or leave it be and so on. Plus it has a nice team synergy with allied cc's. JOLLY COOPERATION!!

4)I don' t like actual E and R actually. I mean, it' s not like i really dislike them, it' s just they are the more plain thing on his kit. Landing a good E can be sometimes a great act of skill when you have to trap enemies that walks in or more than one but i find being able to stun on the edge really lame; i would prefer a little delay like Thresh ulti, else it has a too much oppressive power ( we are talking about a 1,5-2,5 sec stun istant!). About R, i would really really like it to be a different kind of burst. Still a burst, Veigar is a nuker and ' s all good, but maybe with less spam potential ( like "i see ahri- one shot one kill late game"). And mostly without AP: Veigar is not an anti-mage, it' s not in his personality and the enemy ap scaling it just bad as it is now because only adds raw power. Maybe making it still dependand on enemy stats, so they ahve some kind of pressure on what they build ( it should not be good, but if it is clear to the enemy why not?) but equal for everyone.

junglerboy161/20/2015, 3:04:00 AM4 votes

Now, I don't main Veigar, so don't expect me to be quite so insightful as you, but to me as an average player, Veigar is not just "the traditional mage" he is THE anti-mage. It makes sense thematically the way his ult works, and I think that part of the counter play to him is not stacking AP, or picking an AD assassin. With DFG being removed, he will now actually need the enemy AP scaling on his ult to have the same anti-mage burst, which I think is overall better for him as a counter pick type of champion. I think Event Horizon and Baleful Strike should stay the same (both are incredibly distinctive parts of his kit), but Dark Matter should be changed. It is also distinctive for its high delayed damage nuke, but it is just that, a nuke. It should in my opinion deal a little less damage, but also have another effect of some sort, maybe along the lines of shredding MR when it hits.

As for his passive, it is a little blah and a little boring, but it allows for him to have a very strong kit. If they gave him a stronger passive, they would have to nerf his abilities in some way, like weakening their damage or reducing his stun, or anything really. I like having his passive, because with a Tear into Seraph's (my usual mana item of choice on him) build, it allows him to regen large amounts of mana with ease (his base regen, plus Seraph's, plus his passive means he never goes oom), which is exactly what almost any burst mage craves. I understand that you prefer the lower cool down oriented build style on him, and I prefer the higher raw damage long cool down build instead, and that is all personal preference. With the nerfs to so many mana regen items and the upcoming removal of DFG, I think it may ultimately push Veigar back into relying most on the Seraph's build instead.

Stacona1/20/2015, 3:38:01 AM4 votes

a passive being passive, heh - besides veigar is not a poke champion, he is short range so he makes interaction with his opponents innately - lissandra's passive is the same way as veigar's -- xerath's is different because he has the range to be safe so Riot forces him to auto for the mana to get in close for their is some type of risk for getting mana

Sooko1/20/2015, 6:27:32 PM4 votes

I still don't know about the complaints about AP scaling on Veigar's ult. I mean, sure it scales off an enemy's stat, but so many abilities scale off HP (a stat literally everyone has) and so little people complain about it. There can still be investments in CDR and MPen instead of raw AP, but that's just my thoughts.

I think his stun is an amazing skill, but if it were to be toned down, I think his W needs to land faster, because right now, tenacity lets you avoid it even if you get hit by the event horizon.

But his passive is terrible. It makes him weak instead of strong, with huge mana costs all game without much payoff due to the regen nerfs.

And hey, I used to rush an Athene's on Veiggie too, before the nerfs...

Stacona1/20/2015, 12:31:49 AM3 votes

i main support veigar- so valid thing he needs to have is be able to remain viable as a support

TheKingDodo1/20/2015, 3:49:08 AM3 votes

Don't feel bad about primordial blast... AP mages have other things to worry about: item 3128, item 3174 vs. item 3165, Yasuo/ Zed, etc.

Curling Veigar1/20/2015, 6:51:24 AM3 votes

I'm a diamond Veigar main. He's perfectly fine. If they're going to buff him, then do something with his mana costs. Or his W impact delay.

Fizz is not Fish1/20/2015, 3:33:54 PM3 votes

Maybe Q's cd and mana cost can be refund if the target die before Q hit it.

Curling Veigar1/20/2015, 9:16:46 PM2 votes

Buying any form of mana regeneration on Veigar is a really stupid thing to do.

Silents4291/20/2015, 3:20:51 AM2 votes

His aoe stun is toxic, and really should be tuned down a bit, at least the friggin duration.

OblongOtter1/20/2015, 7:16:14 PM2 votes

a passive like Cassiopeia's new passive would've fit well

Veigar. With a free 30% increase to ability power. Yes.

WzqdQsZwQA1/21/2015, 4:59:41 AM1 votes

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