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Riot, no, please don’t do this to Ornn..

Iota Theta·9/30/2017, 3:11:26 AM·37 votes·3,263 views

9/29 PBE Update

> Ornn > Bellows Breath (W) > initial fire damage changed from 10/11.5/13/14.5/16% to 12/14/16/18/20% > VS Live: [15/17.5/20/22.5/25% of enemy's current health] to [12/14/16/18/20% of enemy's max health] > VS PBE: [10/11.5/13/14.5/16% of enemy's max health] to [12/14/16/18/20% of enemy's max health]

This is not what Ornn needs. I know he’s at approximately a 45% Winrate with a low playrate, but this is too much.

20% max HP damage on his W? Please don’t do this. Especially not on top of the 16% Max HP damage on Brittle proc.

We want less damage like this on Tanks, not more.

I know it’s for the full 5 ticks, but that’s still a lot of damage on a tank, and a lot of damage on a skill that provides a strong shield, unstoppable, and Brittle with a 8-5 second CD. It’s been 3 days since the patch. Can we at least let him sit a patch without buffs? Or wait until after all the Rune changes at this point? What happened to playing it safe with him so you don’t overbuff him?

At this rate he’ll end up strong like Ivern then nerfed to the ground. I don’t want that. I love Ornn, but damage to that scale is not what he needs. Cut the percentage back, or leave it at %current HP damage, because this will be an insane buff to his damage that he just does not need.

I will admit I don’t know what he actually needs, maybe more time though? Enchanter supports also aren’t the most friendly to him, which so many of could play a factor in his winrate.

Please Riot, please don’t do this to Ornn. It’s not going to end well for him. I’d rather him have <50% than get that much damage on an already strong ability.

60 Comments

KoKoboto9/30/2017, 3:17:21 AM19 votes

I agree. This is the wrong way to balance Ornn who I think is already doing alright. Ornn already spams his W quite a bit, we don't want another Mao'Kai that deals a shit ton of damage.

If they want to buff his damage they should buff his damage on E because god damn... That ability has so many damn requirements to get the most out of it. Set up pillar, have enemy between pillar and yourself, skill shot towards pillar, all with a ton of delay.

Possible buffs that aren't just more damage:

Headbutt on R deals damage (This would be FUN)
R is no longer a projectile, getting it blocked is fucking lame, especially against Yasuo.
Q pillar a bit bigger.
Slow on R so it's like 40%/50%/60% at like 6/11/16
Increase the range of his dash so he can engage easier as a Vanguard
Increase the range on Q for same reason
Buff all off his upgrades to be gold efficient
Give him more upgrades

He doesn't need more damage, changing W to max health is already HUGE.

Teridax689/30/2017, 11:07:56 AM8 votes

It's sad to see that a champion with 4+ instances of crowd control, plus decent tankiness, still suffers relative to other tanks simply because he lacks damage. I completely agree, tanks need less damage, not more of it, and this kind of buff implicitly admits to Ornn failing to compete with other tanks purely on the grounds of his damage. I don't want this change to happen, and in fact I'd like comprehensive changes done to tanks so that they deal less damage, and instead get compensated in a manner that fits their class better, such as better survivability.

With Ornn specifically, if he needs buffs I'd say the two places to target him are his ult and his items: his ultimate is notoriously difficult to land, and I feel much of that difficulty is artificial, as it comes more from its inherent clunkiness than from enemy interaction. The issue is usually that Ornn players zoom to their target to be able to land their ult at long distances, but as a result of this mistime their dash or simply whiff it entirely. Making Ornn's ult recast auto-dash to the ram would help eliminate those failure cases without affecting the ability's inherent counterplay (i.e. locking Ornn down while he's ulting).

The problem with Ornn's items is a bit more complicated: the issue now is that his upgrades are just stat boosts to items already at max tier, and since those stat boosts are generally only barely gold efficient, they're usually only worth purchasing when already at full build, which rarely happens at the current pace of matches. As it stands, currently a portion of Ornn's power is frequently either not being used, or being used improperly, which might explain his low win rate. In more drawn-out games he'd be stronger, but beyond that the mechanic as it's been implemented is just boring. I'd personally be much more in favor of special items that would either not take up an inventory slot, or that could get combined with certain existing items to generate the latter's upgrades, which would add a legitimate new gameplay effect unique to Ornn (for example, an item that would let the wielder proc Brittle's on-hit damage, or another that could let Ornn dash to the wielder with E to activate his knockup): not only would this still preserve the idea of having an increased late-game gold cap, it would do so in a manner that would be significantly more interesting, allowing for fun interactions with Ornn, as well as more valid choices all around.

kasfas9/30/2017, 6:19:56 PM6 votes

Something that might contribute to Ornn's power is the fact that he only really had one upgradeable item for tanks. No one builds sunfire anymore and thus cannot take advantage of the bonus armour and health.

I think one of the bigger problems with ornn is that he is too easy to avoid. He has enough damage as it is, but everything he does can be dodged easily. When they buffed his ult speed he instantly became better because his skills became more reliable. I think the same should be done for things like his E and maybe his Q.

Another thing potentially keeping ornn down is how bad tank items are. With what we've seen recently tanks aren't doing well unless they have a really good tank steroid in their kit. The likes of cho ult, sion w, maokai passive, sej passive, etc. When tanks lack that steroid they also tend to be weak. Other weak tank champs now are poppy, gragas, nautilus, and malphite, all of which have a tank steroid that is now weaker due to the tank item changes. Ornn's only tank steroid is his w which doesn't last long and doesn't generally do much due to its size and the general amount of health he builds. It's essentially sion w without the health gain.

Imo, if riot wanted to really solve Ornn's problems they would make his shield bigger or last longer. Perhaps grant him bonus armour and mr when he lands a successful e, or give him more health per level.

Basically there are a lot of factors that keep ornn weak right now even after all his buffs, but his damage is not one of those things.

Grizzlpaw9/30/2017, 4:53:55 AM5 votes

To be fair Ornn's damage is super slow and telegraphed.

If you got hit by either of his super telegraphed knockups or positioned poorly and let him slowly walk up and land his W + auto on you... You should probably be punished for it.

LankPants9/30/2017, 4:12:55 AM3 votes

I actually don't see a huge problem with Ornn getting more damage. His CC is so absurdly situational and so rarely actually works that he needs something to offset this.

We want less damage like this on Tanks, not more.

I disagree completely. This was the philosophy of the tank rework and it fucking failed. By trying to remove damage from tanks (along with a few other shitty design directions) Riot created a clone army of tanks who all do the exact same thing and have absolutely no unique traits. Tanks need to be allowed to do damage where it makes sense.

muted team chat9/30/2017, 3:43:03 AM3 votes

Technically Mundos Q does almost the same damage and no ticks and at super safe range. Is mundo's damage OP?

The Bad Touch9/30/2017, 11:25:19 AM3 votes

Well at the end of the day it's about killing the other team. Not playing patty cake.

There are other champs that bring CC to the table + 4x his damage output. So why bother with Ornn?

I'm not talking numbers here. The only ability an Orrn can ever expect to land (even against silver players) is a long range R.

Seriously I've shat on this guy with every champ I've played against him. Including solo lane Janna, Master Yi, and even Nunu.

Paroe9/30/2017, 4:32:35 AM2 votes

@thread

%HP damage with little or no base damage is good; it means that tanks wont be resorting to slap fights. We need MORE low-base high % damage on tanks, not less. Riot has also stated that "%HP is no longer being used as a tank buster stat and more as a 'i do similar damage to everyone' stat.
Orrns W locks him in the direction hes facing and you outplay him by moving to the side. Its a self CC - he cant even attack durring his W animation.
Stop bitching about a low win rate champion with already very clear skill expression whose only niche is "i punish other tank tops who arent poppy".

azrolator9/30/2017, 7:22:09 PM2 votes

You get tanks like Ali that can just straight up go AP and 100-0 any squishy but their engage/cc denies any real counterplay. I would much rather see this kind of percent health damage that lets them do some minimal damage to tanks and squishies alike, but counters their ability to basically go into assassin mode. I see that as the real problem with tanks right now. They nerfed a bunch of the defensive gears, upped the offense gears, and tank buster gears and kits, that you have a lot of matchups where a tank building tank can't survive worth a damn, but a tank building damage can survive, because the enemy is dead before the cc is up.

I think you might have a point if this was yet another true damage max health percentage damage creep buff. But Ornn isn't building pen, his w at 20 percent is going to be more like 10 if he is lucky and gets someone in it for the full duration. You're going to need a ton of combos to get someone dead with a 10 percent damage dot that roots you. And as you pointed out, Ornn has a problem with the combos, because they are easily avoided.

Muzét9/30/2017, 2:26:26 PM2 votes

This isn't really what Ornn needs yet this won't make him get huge playrate/winrate.

Ornn don't have scaling on this ability apart from leveling. It's hard to get the full damage output since his abilites are telegraphed. Every single ability. He's relying a lot on his teammates and it's kinda hard to succeed as Ornn. W is his main ability since it's the damaging ability here. Yet it lacks power on low health target (since it's current health for the breath) and his other ability completely lack base damage to make up for it. So, Riot decided that rather than giving him higher base damage elsewhere, to change the damage type to his W.

Imo it's a good move since it's his main ability and late game you can find ornn player using it just so it can apply the mark at the end or worse: to get the shield.

Furthermore do not forget that Ornn build full tank. He doesn't build pen at all. He's still getting highly "counter" by some resistances even if you don't succeed to dodge his abilities.

Skias10/1/2017, 8:59:40 PM1 votes

His kit is so clunky and at odds with itself, it's no surprise he will have to be over tuned like crazy to become good. Scalings all over the place, weird kit, no theme. He's just half cooked.

taleofsonata9/30/2017, 3:48:06 AM1 votes

Have you seen Mundo Q?

Escheton10/1/2017, 8:53:26 PM1 votes

New Ornn build: item 3135 item 3151 item 3020

BubbaV9/30/2017, 3:44:15 AM1 votes

i feel like they should make his q pop up faster