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Does Riot actually listen to our feedback?

Unnamed Feeder··186 votes·88,562 views

This may be a bit controversial but...I really don't think Riot/the balance team takes any comments from the playerbase seriously. I used to be one of the supporters of Riot and gave them the benefit of the doubt. However, as I watched season 7 go by, I'm really starting to question whether Riot actually listens to the playerbase at all, and if Riot actually cares about the health of the game or what the players want.

To name a few examples:

  1. When Riot introduced counterplay, a great concept by itself, it mostly focused around delaying assassin burst. However, adcs got to keep ALL of their instant burst critical strikes, counterplay-free. This is not mentioning how lifesteal remained instant, and support items overbuffed. Despite THOUSANDS of threads regarding this issue, Riot only significantly nerfed ardent censor after the whole season was about to end.
  2. Twitch has been a huge issue, boasting a win rate higher than 53% throughout the majority of the season. Yet Riot adamantly refused to nerf him, and is still refusing to do so today.
  3. When adcs got incredibly strong in the mid game from midseason onwards, Riot turned a blind eye, laying excuses such as 'balance for pro play'. When a single bruiser gets his time to shine, Riot proceeds to nerf him very, VERY quickly (singed, recently urgot)
  4. Many people were very unsatisfied with reworks, notably Leblanc and Rengar. When Rengar mains requested a revert - they were told 'nice meme' from a Rioter, and no work was given to him since other than a pitiful +3 armor buff.
  5. Instead of giving the long requested turret buffs, Riot just made it easier and easier for them to be destroyed.

In all honesty, all of these issues have been going on for a HUGE portion of the season, but they weren't addressed. Instead Riot focused on the new runes - while it is a good idea, it would have been SO much better to focus on what the players want so badly. It's frankly disappointing. The playerbase has been really verbal about what they want and how to make the game healthier, and while some of the comments were a bit verbally strong, most of them had a lot of constructive feedback. But Riot listened to almost none of it. I really enjoy the game and I play a lot, but it honestly feels like all the players are throwing comments at a brick wall, and that Riot is giving us a huge "nope" sign when all we want is for the game to be more balanced and healthier.

tldr: Based on the performance of the balance team and Riot overall, I'm really disappointed, and they give the impression that they don't listen to our feedback at all, despite claiming to do so.

Edit: Damn, I wasn't expecting this thread to get nearly as much attention as it did. I apologize for not being able to reply to every single response. I just want to say thanks to everyone who contributed in a constructive and respectful way. I appreciate every bit of it and it really shows our love for this game. Extra thanks to Riot Calad for his first post (I actually replied to him but it got buried so I just want to show I appreciate his reply) and Maple Nectar for his consistent responses and his detailed explanation. While the responses didn't leave everyone or myself absolutely, 100% satisfied, the fact that you guys took precious time out of your day (at work, I may add) to respond to this shows us that you do care about the playerbase. Thanks again guys!

308 Comments

RiotRiot Calad120 votes

Yes, constantly. Rioters check the boards several times a day, have reddit up on a second monitor, watch streams while they eat, survey players both in-client and in-person, and track popular topics from many different countries.

In some cases, a Rioter might agree with your sentiment and be actively working to improve something, but not be ready to talk about it yet - in others, they might agree but feel there is another important project that they have to prioritize. In still others, they might listen, and decide they actually disagree with your perspective. Disagreement happens a lot - even people who agree that a problem exists might have very different ideas of how it should be solved, and taking all that into account, not just from a small group on boards or reddit, but on the huge scale of players all over the world, takes time.

We hire designers not to look at what players say and then immediately do it, but to take different perspectives into account, dive into the data, and then use their best judgment to determine a course of action.

In regards to your examples, I think a good first step would be to figure out what the gameplay team currently thinks about the questions you have.

For example:

Does the gameplay team think turrets are strong enough at the moment?

I’m not a designer - so I don’t know the answer to this question. It could be a good thing to ask on one of Meddler’s “Quick Gameplay Thoughts.” He usually hangs around for awhile after he posts, and I’d be interested to see how he feels about it.

RageOnNoobs6 votes

no one of you rioters just said you care about money

ModAcademy Kayn19 votes

Oh god FORBID a company cares about making money.

Big Black Croc12 votes

Nah, but its wrong when its the ONLY thing they care about.

HonestJohnTheCon15 votes

Except money isn't the ONLY thing Riot cares about.

ModAcademy Kayn10 votes

They care about the memes

BALDG1VEN BOOMER57 votes

I mean turrets have been complete garbage since season 6 but despite constant player feedback nothing has been done. I'm honestly curious to hear their perspective on why/how the current state of turrets reflects healthy game play.

The thing that really concerns me (especially as of late) is the lack of urgency they have when addressing things that have gone on for too long, Twitch being a prime example.

Malicious Metal19 votes

You obviously haven't been around when Turrets were actually durable and games devolved into 40 minute farming simulations with wave clear mages like Ziggs or Anivia being the only playable mids.

Towers might be a tad too weak but tinkering with their power will result in huge shifts in terms of game flow and make rift herald/baron almost mandatory to siege.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER18 votes

Never did I say we should buff them to that extent...

Should they last a reasonable time? Yes, but they shouldn't last for 8 minutes.

Also Anivia and Ziggs are better champions when it comes to stalling the game so..

RiotRiot MapleNectar19 votes

I talked about this on a threada little over a month ago, but didn't mention it again since then. We're actually shipping some changes to turrets on 7.23 that didn't quite make preseason.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER3 votes

That’s great to see, thanks Nectar.

Hopefully other topics will also be looked at during this time.

Malicious Metal33 votes

Damn Calad, it takes actual cojones to show a riot flair in these kinds of threads. Especially now that the entirety of the front page is littered with complaints.

Bronze II Yasuo 30 votes

I mean it's better to get a response, them going silent is probably the worse thing they could do.

I'd rather hear their side than them refusing to talk.

ModAcademy Kayn10 votes

Yeah, but it is stepping into the flames. It's why a lot of Rengar threads went unanswered, a lot of them were fiery pits of angry people.

Pika31025 votes

You literally made me lol for real. Not with your comment, but you made me remember Fearless' famous words back in season 4.

"I chose to take lead on this project because I have THICK SKIN. I can take the negative feedback and not let it get to me."

...skip ahead 1 month later:

"I've been specifically avoiding discussing the project on the forums, because they are filled with negative feedback. The anger from the players I affected, makes me emotionally upset."

Sraeg201324 votes

"I chose to take lead on this project because I have THICK SKIN. I can take the negative feedback and not let it get to me."

...skip ahead 1 month later:

"I've been specifically avoiding discussing the project on the forums, because they are filled with negative feedback. The anger from the players I affected, makes me emotionally upset."

https://i.imgur.com/CMfpZ5x.gif?b

SpecterVonBaren21 votes

I mean... Thick Skin does have a 6 second CD. Can't have it up for every post.

HonestJohnTheCon4 votes

Fearless ain't so fearless.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

Not really. Sometimes it's good to speak and other times it's good to be silent.

Pika31014 votes

No, it's **NEVER **good to be silent, but it is important to choose what you say very carefully. No, I don't necessarily mean telling them exactly what they want to hear, especially if it's a LIE as so many of Rito's statements usually are.

If there isn't a good statement to claim, they **COULD **always pose an inquiry instead. It doesn't always have to be them talking **AT **us, Rito can pose questions as well. The point is, there **NEEDS **to be an open dialogue. Rito can't continue dotting the boards with sprinkles here and there.

Every day that Rito avoids discussion is another day of disconnect between us forming, which in my case has gone on for over 3 years. At this point, I don't trust a single word Rito spews.

ShinkoMinori17 votes

You guys didn't hear us for months when you launched dynamic queue

Sp33d Zer010 votes

Or they did and still felt like Dynamic queue was a better choice than team 5v5, ala

In still others, they might listen, and decide they actually disagree with your perspective. Disagreement happens a lot - even people who agree that a problem exists might have very different ideas of how it should be solved, and taking all that into account, not just from a small group on boards or reddit, but on the huge scale of players all over the world, takes time.

ChiTenshi3 votes

I don’t think the issue is Riot not acknowledging the posts (like some players believe) but rather the lack of communication to players.

Some issues may take time to resolve but there have been incidences where little-no information is given on the topic. Turret Health have been a constant thorn in players sides but we have barely heard any information regarding what Riot are thinking/doing/considering about the subject.

Another issue I noticed is that Riot Staff have to hold back on their thoughts out of fear that they will be held against their word. They also use grandiloquent posts to show the players they have a strong understanding of the situation but lose those who can’t understand the terminology used (can come off as condescending).

I suggest allowing Riot Staff to have alternate accounts that can act as a ‘casual account’. Would allow Riot Staff to interact with the public more freely, and the public would feel that Riot understand us better.

Sraeg201321 votes

Yes, constantly. Rioters check the boards several times a day, have reddit up on a second monitor, watch streams while they eat, survey players both in-client and in-person, and track popular topics from many different countries.

Cute, you almost had me sold there.

Fairyfleur8 votes

Why do you think they don't?

Sraeg201318 votes

I've seen champion-breaking bugs unattended for months despite multiple and/or detailed threads.

And I'm not talking about Mordekaiser here.

LightIsMyPath9 votes

But it would be really nice if a rioter disagreeing could say so and state why. "imho you are saying a bunch of bullshit cause x y and z" would feel so much better than no answer at all (joking I know you have to keep a certain tone even when speaking to negative IQ people but it would really be appreciated if you could interact more. Also you are getting downvoted cause people don't believe you read since you never answer..)

Yordle Xayah11 votes

It could be a good thing to ask on one of Meddler’s “Quick Gameplay Thoughts.”

In my experience, he only responds to the easy stuff if at all. Pose a challenging question and he won't tackle it. I have not good experiences on those threads.

DeathBurst2 votes

There is a nuance between "challenging" questions and loaded questions that are barely hidden insults.

Yordle Xayah9 votes

I'll give you a simple answer: Last year Trist was on a bad spot, and she wasn't being talked about at all. I asked on those topics several times for anything on the champion and the direction they wanted to take with her. Not once were my concerns ever addressed.

Now, how do I know the questions were hard and challenging? Because Scarizard (before he left Riot) did address Trist twice during Live Q & A sessions on Twitch. What he basically told me is that Trist needed work. They they knew she was in trouble but had no idea of what to do with her. He commented that they added the "Bomb on tower" mechanics cause they thought it'd be fun, but that now they were unable to help her without busting her. I know this not because of Meddler, but because of Scarizard. This is so true (That Riot don't understand the champ) that they just over-buffed Crit Strike items and we got those two months of Super-Popular Trist just a couple weeks ago prior to Pre-Season.

Riot decided to nerf her, so in more than one ocasion I asked Meddler not to revert the buff but simply to give context to the nerf, like it's often done with buffs/nerfs on the PBE. I asked if they were taking into account the state of Crit Items and that on the same Kit, prior to the Item Buffs, Trist was considered an awful pick. Of course, I was very well informed of how the community was annoyed with Trist, but I wanted some context from Riot themselves.

All I need to say is that not a single one of my concerns were ever addressed. It's not like I even wanted a personal response. They could have spoken about her anywhere, but I have no idea what they think about her anymore. Do they understand her? Do they have a plan for her? Do they care? I then start to understand Aatrox fans, cause the champion is then like forgotten or something. If I hadn't asked Scarizard live, and had he not been kind enough to respond, there would have been zero info on Trist from Riot in all of 2016.

Me disliking stuff the balance team does is one thing. Lack of communication to difficult questions is a completely different thing.

xJLx MCHammer16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Calad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M85EEWLB,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-11-12T22:40:22.743+0000)

Yes, constantly. Rioters check the boards several times a day, have reddit up on a second monitor, watch streams while they eat, survey players both in-client and in-person, and track popular topics from many different countries.

In some cases, a Rioter might agree with your sentiment and be actively working to improve something, but not be ready to talk about it yet - in others, they might agree but feel there is another important project that they have to prioritize. In still others, they might listen, and decide they actually disagree with your perspective. Disagreement happens a lot - even people who agree that a problem exists might have very different ideas of how it should be solved, and taking all that into account, not just from a small group on boards or reddit, but on the huge scale of players all over the world, takes time.

We hire designers not to look at what players say and then immediately do it, but to take different perspectives into account, dive into the data, and then use their best judgment to determine a course of action.

In regards to your examples, I think a good first step would be to figure out what the gameplay team currently thinks about the questions you have.

For example:

Does the gameplay team think turrets are strong enough at the moment?

I’m not a designer - so I don’t know the answer to this question. It could be a good thing to ask on one of Meddler’s “Quick Gameplay Thoughts.” He usually hangs around for awhile after he posts, and I’d be interested to see how he feels about it.

Good way to dodge some concern by posting non sense

MonkeyMadness5 votes

Yes, constantly. Rioters check the boards several times a day, have reddit up on a second monitor, watch streams while they eat, survey players both in-client and in-person, and track popular topics from many different countries.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/023/021/e02e5ffb5f980cd8262cf7f0ae00a4a9_press-x-to-doubt-memes-memesuper-la-noire-doubt-meme_419-238.jpg

RiotRiot MapleNectar82 votes

*I wrote most of this last night and just finished it off over lunch...hoping it all makes sense/flows.

I'm typing this as a reply to this thread in general, not necessarily to the OP.

I'll echo what Calad said in that we pay attention to the boards/reddit/twitter/youtube etc etc more than players realize. Walking around the office, it's super common to see people pouring over threads, reading player feedback and reactions to the latest patch, feature, CG, skin etc. We ourselves are players, but by keeping in touch with the community we can understand and keep a better pulse for how something will be received, or what's paining the players at the moment. This requires walking a very fine however. Pivoting to every demand/request from Reddit/boards can mean we hyper focus on a portion of players that doesn't represent even close to the majority of our players base - players in western countries can have completely different opinions than players in eastern countries on specific topics. It also means that we're devoting time solving temporary problems when we should be working on longer term solutions or bigger bets that can help push League forward. This is super contentious as the OP points out - working on things for the future means we're not solving player pain now - and we may need to find a better balance here looking back on the latter half of this season. Let me illustrate some of that risk with an example.

I personally was pretty involved in the "Enemy Vision Here" ping, I'd seen a thread crop up to the top of Reddit again, and it was one that I'd wanted for YEARS and just made sense, so I pulled in people from a few teams around me to get it put together and shipped. That comes at a cost though. The engineer and vfx artist were in the last few weeks of development on Urgot, the audio designer was finishing up some work on skins, our QA was testing stuff that fell out of the usual day to day, and I wasn't doing the work I'd usually be doing. Was it worth it? I think so, but could Urgot have been that much better if the engineer and vfx artist were only focusing on him? Potentially. Or maybe that was time the engineer could have spent prototyping an ability for Eve (the other champ he was working on). I'm not illustrating this to illicit some form of pity, because at the end of the day working on League is a job, it's a job we love, but it's a job and we're expected to do things while we're at our desks. What I'm trying to illustrate is that jumping on every request or bit of feedback from players can cause us to deviate or lose sight of the bigger thing we're working towards, all the little things can add up to a lot of timelines slipping. We also don't always agree, hell, even the community doesn't always agree with eachother. Look at jungle plants from last pre-season, or elemental dragons, or even Rift Herald from this midseason. When they first were teased, some players were up in arms about them, while others loved the idea. We listen to feedback, and we frequently iterate based on it, but it would worry me if we suddenly stopped taking risks and pushing big new changes simply because a vocal minority voiced opinions against them. I'm not saying that they're wrong, but that we have to be careful with how often we adjust course, and how often we stick to our called shots and push forward lest we only end up shipping changes that are always vanilla (this goes for new champs, VGUs, reworks, systems changes, balance tuning, skins, etc etc).

In regards to why you may not see as much Rioter participation you (or we) would like, it's likely because engaging can be very sharp double edged sword. Speaking as a Rioter means any sentence you write is likely to be taken as an official statement from the company in regards to our stance on the game and our plans with it. It's also likely to be dissected and held under the microscope by everyone - but especially when your statement jives with another players opinion. To use a very current example. I'd been talking with some players about ancient coin gold generation on this thread, when one player asked what my opinion of sightstone was, I gave a reply, and the next thing I know there was this post on the front page of reddit where my comment and credibility was being shredded. In the thread I was in it seemed like a pretty innocent question, and I didn't think twice about posting my reply, but had I known it was going to get the level of scrutiny it did (which I should have seen coming), I probably would have either just avoided replying to save myself the struggle, or taken much much longer to write a perfect reply that had the lowest chance of being misconstrued as a direction I personally was championing for League. Combine that with the fact that the number of Rioters who can actually engage in the topics you guys are super passionate about (we are too), and you're down to ~20-30 people that have the context, the experience, and the knowledge to actually give a detailed reply. It can be easier to just read a thread on the boards, and then talk about it with co-workers if we think there's something there than to engage in what will likely turn into a multi threaded conversation with a bunch of people who all have varying opinions on a subject. I feel bad when I drop a one liner on a post and then never go back to the comments on it, but I'm also trying to juggle my day to day responsibilities at work, and then my role as a father and husband and I have to prioritize my time. It feels crappy, but I prefer to touch base when I can even if it's the bare minimum than just stay silent just because I'm not always able to have an in depth conversation.

None of this is to say that we ourselves make the right decisions each and every time, and it would be blatantly false to do so. We fuck up, but when we do we try to correct as quickly as possible. We constantly seek to improve the quality of our work with each and every patch, and we're also trying to find ways to be more transparent with our decisions to more of our player base than just those on Reddit and the boards. Even if we managed to convince people here on a direction we're taking, we still have a long ways to go to inform players in every other region of those same decisions - and that's a problem we're actively trying to solve. I hope this doesn't come across as hand wavey and dismissive of the sentiment. If you feel like we don't listen to feedback there's certainly something that's leading to that feeling and we need to figure that out, but the solution can't be "change things to match what the community thinks is correct", since that can be the right move just as often as it can be incorrect.

AirKingNeo5 votes

On the topic of 'double edged sword' statements, I think it's a good thing. It allows the community to tell Riot, "Hey, you're wrong. Here's the correct thing."

Now whether Rioters actually realize that they were wrong is up to them, but clearly they should realize that somethings they say might be really stupid (like Sterak's being equal with Cleaver).

On the topic of Sightstone you made, I agree. I would rather have Sightstone have less power as an item, and probably buff trinkets to compensate.

Of course, there's an obvious lack of communication between certain Rioters and the community which there shouldn't be because it's causing issues.

RiotRiot MapleNectar15 votes

"On the topic of 'double edged sword' statements, I think it's a good thing. It allows the community to tell Riot, "Hey, you're wrong. Here's the correct thing."

That's fair, and honestly I actually agree that it's a good thing too as it gives players the opportunity to say we're wrong as you pointed out. What I was trying to allude to is that it serves as one of the barriers to a lot of Rioters who aren't necessarily in the thick of things to come and comment on the boards. When a lot of the topics revolve around subject matter only a handful of Rioters can chime in on, it can look like we're apathetic and ignorant of what players think or feel since a lot of conversations go unanswered or visibly unacknowledged. An example of how it can be a double edged sword was the recent comment I made on that one thread about Cho'gath that you quoted in your thread the other day. The one where I asked "out of curiosity, why do you think he's overpowered". I'd made the comment with the intent of having a discussion, but then got burried and didn't get the chance to go back to it. That comment then makes it out to look like I'm blissfully unaware that a portion of players think cho'gath is bonkers, when the thing I was actually going for was a dialogue. I fucked that one up, I should have returned to it, but by the time I had enough time again the time was long past that it would actually be valuable.

Now whether Rioters actually realize that they were wrong is up to them, but clearly they should realize that somethings they say might be really stupid (like Sterak's being equal with Cleaver).

I personally think Steraks and Cleaver are quite different items and not really comparable tbh. You buy them for very different reasons and often not even in the same game. I never even saw the thread where steraks was mentioned though so can't really offer much regarding the comment made.

"On the topic of Sightstone you made, I agree. I would rather have Sightstone have less power as an item, and probably buff trinkets to compensate.

I think there's a lot to be discussed about the vision system currently. Taking power out of sightstone and putting it into trinkets would likely just result in an item that I believe (personally) feels pretty butt to build right now. IIRC your suggestion on the post was to increase trinket ward duration right along with some form of sightstone nerf...can't remember if it was ward stacks, duration, hp, gold cost etc.

Of course, there's an obvious lack of communication between certain Rioters and the community which there shouldn't be because it's causing issues.

This is something we're trying to get better at, Repertoir, Trading Stance, myself, and a few others have been trying to be more active here, but it still comes with a cost benefit. If there was a way for us to be super responsive to every thread while still getting work done I'd be super fucking down, but I'm also super interested and invested in how we can do that globally. As I alluded to in my original reply, we could have everyone on the boards here satisfied with our level of engagement, but it does nothing for our the majority of our players in other regions. Tough to solve, but something that I view as very important.

iLBGAMing34 votes

They never did my friend.

SpecterVonBaren14 votes

Listening to feedback and agreeing with it are not the same thing. And no, they have actually agreed with us in the past on things before.

Magearna9 votes

Exactly. I agree that Riot could take a different stance on certain topics and maybe they should be transparent on others, but just because a player says jump, Riot doesn't need to say how high.

We're probably gonna get downvoted for this but it's a bit sad seeing everyone feel like Riot is the enemy when over the past 7 seasons, they HAVE done things that many players have wanted, and even things we didn't know we want.

Sp33d Zer02 votes

Then why do you play their game if you honestly believe they never look at any of the feedback (despite red posts all over reddit and the boards)

AirKingNeo1 votes

Because things like Bramble Vest exists?

Because they've done nothing to disprove their bias against bruisers?

Sp33d Zer02 votes

This does nothing to answer the question I asked.

Why would you waste your time playing. A game. If you HONESTLY believe that feedback is entirely ignored,

Grats, you found examples of it being ignored/not worth responding to. Did not in any way give an answer.

AirKingNeo3 votes

"Why would you live in a country if you don't like their government?"

Sp33d Zer03 votes

Oh right, I forgot that your choice to play a certain f2p game is equivalent to immigration processes, financial situations, and job opportunity. Thank you for reminding me.

Ignoring the fact that people do move to different countries for opportunity at a better life, you still have yet to answer the question.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Do you know how difficult it is for someone to leave their home country?

Sp33d Zer05 votes

As a first generation, who's aunt moved to south Africa, brother moved to Sweden, sister moved to Mexico, and parents came from Trinidad and Brazil, and who's in laws moved from Mexico I have a fairly good idea.

Now my question is do you think that leaving league is as hard as leaving a country? Because you're the one who brought it up

Saggitairre26 votes

This reminds me of the Galio Q buff they recently released, even against the words of so many stating how OP it was...What happened? It was OP beyond belief. They waited a few days before nerfing it. Everything they release is WAY over the top OP in terms of damage, or so grossly underpowered. They do not know how to find decent balance at all.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

I think the problem is that you can point to the times they made a change and it ended up broken but you can't point at the changes they made that prevented big problems because they prevented them from happening.

How many horribly OP things might have occurred live had they not made a change? That's something more people should think about.

Milamber698 votes

If something was going live that was going to be very op or broken, it would be their fault in the first place. Magical creatures don't appear in the night and add stuff to the game. Anything going live is their doing.

Trap or a Trick3 votes

you forgot that Aatrox mains are disappointed in their rework :c

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