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Sion buff proposal

DrBaryon··12 votes·2,361 views

So...Sion. His rework is pretty much the "gold-standard" for reworked champions, being fun for the player while leaving counterplay options for opponents. I picked him up shortly after rework when people still building ravenous hydra, maxing q and complaining about how lackluster and weak he was. Loved him to death for his badassery, the simple-to-learn, hard-to-master kit, and his self-destructive and fearless play style and he's been my favorite pick in ranked since.

Then he hit the pro-scene and people started to notice how bs his e was, and it got nerfed a couple times. Totally legit. It was the only part of his kit that had no counterplay and the base damage and mana cost were out of line. People still had great success on him.

But then the shield nerf happened, and Sion instantly dropped from overpowered to balanced or slightly below balanced. The delay in popping it is clunky but sensible, since people weren't using it as a shield and there wasn't enough time for opponents to pop it. But the scaling was a serious problem. Now Sion's shield is one of the worst in the game until you can start leveling it after lvl 9. And if you don't level it 2nd because you want to your e to actually have a decent cd/slow/dmg, it will be weak almost the whole game.

Since that nerf Sion dropped out of pro-play pretty completely, and almost everything that happened since has diminished his effectiveness further. His core item Frozen Heart took a serious nerf, as did Righteous Glory. The juggernauts took his role as a high threat tank and do it much more effectively than him (he has a cc/initiation advantage but if that was all you wanted maokai and malphite could do it much more reliably, sion's advantage was his dmg threat). New Fiora and GP add to the long list of champs that crush him in lane (riven, vlad, cho, anyone else with some combo of mobility sustain and cc). Sterak's is a solid choice on him, but Titanic Hydra is a trap given how poor his ad ratios are outside q (his ultimate scales worse with ad than Renekton's does with ap) and how little he autos, and deadman's plate lets the juggs initiate, further eroding his niche. Consequently, according to champion.gg, he sits at a pick rate of below 1.5% and a win rate below 49%. These numbers aren't in and of themselves horrible in the way post-nerf kass was, but given that his kit's so well designed and counterplayable, I can't help but feel that now would be an ok time to give him a buff so he can get some play outside of his hardcore fanbase and compete with some of the "OP" new top-laners.

If anyone at Riot agrees, here's some changes I think could help him out a little. It would be great if you could implement 1 or 2, I certainly don't expect all of them given I agree he's about balanced:

  1. Buff Base Ad. Sion's base AD growth of 4 per level was nearly the highest when he came out. Reworked Darius however outpaces him significantly with 5 per level. This doesn't make much sense thematically, given Sion is basically Darius's prototype, with 300 lbs extra muscle and a oven of blood magic in his stomach. More base ad would buff his q and ensure getting hacked at by a giant zombie berserker doesn't tickle.
  2. Change his passive's health drain so it scales on base hp. It's a pet peeve of mine that Sion is pretty much the only champ actively punished for gaining xp by one of his mechanics, since his passive drains health based on level. It makes the power curve on his passive very strange, making lvl 1 undead sion a buff stealing, multikilling monster while lvl 18 sion struggles to live more than a few seconds even with no enemy focus and a full tank build. Scaling on base hp keep his strength consistent and rewards him for the bonus health from tanky builds and successful w farm.
  3. Revert the w shield strength nerf. This option will allow sion to get some beef back into his lvl 1 shield and gives him the flexibility to max e early without gimping his mid game teamfight. Maintaining the 3s delay will keep it from being as oppressive as in his glory days. Probably not a good idea given how oppressive e max can be, but would strengthen his ability to handle mobile and ranged opponents q max can't handle.
  4. Reduce mana cost on shield. Another option. Sion's builds are inflexible and rely on frozen heart too much because of the above average mana cost on w, which is essential to winning a trade, but still much weaker than it was on release. Setting it to a flat 65 would also discourage the e first build Riot struggled to balance.
  5. Make e a 1 point wonder. Sion's strength in lane is his cc combo of e slow into q slam. As it stands though, that combo is difficult to pull off unless you max e first, which gimps the aoe teamfight tools of his q and w. Lvl 1 e has double the cd of maxed q and a somewhat weak 40% slow, which is part of why people max e. If you want to favor the q>w>e skill order, reducing the lvl 1 cd or setting the slow to a flat 50% would be good ways to make it useful in lane even if you max q first.

Just some ideas, sorry for the novel. I understand if you're of the mind sion is balanced, but would appreciate you considering the first two at least, since to me they're small buffs that fix counter-intuitive elements of his kit.

29 Comments

OxBaker6 votes

I'd love it if they just reverted his shield nerfs. As it stands there's no reason to play him top lane when you could choose a juggernaut instead.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

I'd love it if they just reverted his shield nerfs. As it stands there's no reason to play him top lane when you could choose a juggernaut instead.

Sion becomes an hypertank at late game.

DrBaryon1 votes

His tankiness is a little over-hyped because people see "infinite stacking" on w and don't realize his base health per level is bottom tier to compensate. He needs +500 health to break even with Darius and in a typical game you'll struggle to get much more than that, especially since his inability to duel many top champs effectively will force him to vacate lane and teamfight much earlier than Nasus. His shield has a sufficiently long cd that you'll struggle to use it more than once per fight. He relies on building pure tank and knocking up enemy dps with q to live in fight and without that is less tanky than a Maokai/Ali/Gragas with their dmg reduction, or Mundo/Darius/Voli with their obnoxious in-fight sustain.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Getting Trinity Force on Sion actually really helps his dueling. His E's armor shred will let the Sheen procs hit harder, and he can weave his abilities in such a way that it procs often.

I would normally get (in no particular order) TF, Frozen Heart, Maw of Malmortius, Randuins Omen, Banshee's Veil, Mercs.

Lovelle3 votes

Not only that, but Sion's Q is a lot harder to land, so it should do more damage when fully charged imo.

Cho'gath's Q is an AoE knockup and it does a ton more damage, plus it's easier to land.

DrBaryon1 votes

Agreed, a base ad buff would help make q more impactful, especially late game. Another alternative would be to give q a monster AD ratio to match its base damage, so people could get benefit from the bruiser items juggs are using to such effect. With a base damage of around 550 for fully (unrealistically) charged q at lvl 18 and a ratio of 1.95, it would take nearly 275 AD to double your power on that ability. Most champions (including Garen) have "doubling numbers" closer to 200 on their AD spells.

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, a base ad buff would help make q more impactful, especially late game. Another alternative would be to give q a monster AD ratio to match its base damage, so people could get benefit from the bruiser items juggs are using to such effect. With a base damage of around 550 for fully (unrealistically) charged q at lvl 18 and a ratio of 1.95, it would take nearly 275 AD to double your power on that ability. Most champions (including Garen) have "doubling numbers" closer to 200 on their AD spells.

Decimating Smash doesn't even need a monster AD ratio to do damage late game. All it needs is a bonus AD ratio (like his ult) to deal good burst damage the whole game. The issue right now is that his Q doesn't really have decent AD scaling. The base damage is high though, which is why you see its damage start out decent early but taper off quickly around mid game.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Sion's Q costs half the mana that Cho's does; early on you do more than 2 Q's as Cho and there goes your mana pool.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

Does Sion really need more than a tiny buff though? I think he's really balanced. He can do so much for his team and he's one of the only tanks I love, he's what a tank should be.

Extremely beefy with awesome teamfighting ability but he falls off hard when it comes to real damage. He can instantly win teamfights with his hard AoE CC and his ability to peel for carries, but there's also counterplay to it.

DrBaryon1 votes

I agree he's still decent and I don't think his teamfight needs a buff, although ulting into a team with mobile carries or a tank that knows how to body block is in my experience a fool's errand. Buffs 1-2 are more QoL and consistency than anything else, and 3-5 would be laning/early-game buffs that will allow him to survive top lane, where as it stands he has extremely low kill potential in even his best matchups, and several matchups that are utterly unwinnable. There's little reason to pick such a weak laner over a juggernaut with equal scaling late game and bullying potential early. I suppose we could just nerf the juggs into garbage but I like upward balancing better.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

Well to be fair, as a core tank he shouldn't have much kill potential. Though I agree that he has an extremely weak laning phase against Juggernauts now. Darius will demolish him with his combo and zone him so hard, Garen will just Silence him and prevent him from doing anything, and have you seen a Fiora parry a Sion ult?

I think Sion could get a stronger laning phase, or just something that makes him less weak to Juggernauts, and also something that makes his ultimate more controllable. I think It's hilarious when a Sion misses an ult and dives into the enemy fountain, but I feel like Sion's ult is too difficult to hit in a lot of circumstances for the benefits it gives. On one hand it can be use an escape, but on the other It's really risky/difficult to use to teamfight with.

Weiner the Pooh1 votes

whats a sion? jk doe, him and Sejuani could use some of those nerfs reverted.

53436278DEL11 votes

i agree with number 2

Ironclad Dragon1 votes

Sion Buff my man, man.

killd0zer1 votes

i didnt read ur post but i dv

M4nhunt661 votes

Upvoted for some love for Sion.

TheDevice1 votes

Sion sion brothers... unite.

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

The problem, maybe mentioned before, with Sion, Sejuani, Nasus, Amumu and any other type of "Tank Raid Boss" (A beast who's late game makes hyper carries cry and only countered by another tank raid boss in the end) was olafed and nerfed to the ground. These beasts entire point was to reach a certain point of the game and then proceed to STOMP the front line and then break Vayne's neck (using her as the perfect example since she fits both anti tank and hyper carry perfectly, koggles is another example.) when the timer was up. This timer was past the hyper carry timer so you still had the chance but when time was up, TIME WAS UP, PERIOD!

The point of this is anyone who is a Tank Raid Boss is considered toxic by Riot, and probably the community, and will never be viable. They will be olafed to mid-late game champions with a weak early game, and constantly nerfed to be kept in check. I would love to have my favourite raid bosses back to their former glory, but until Riot changes their veiw that will not happen. Perhaps more petitions will help but the bad blinded sheeple has made Riot ignore their fans sadly.

It also doesn't help that the hyper carries have such safe solo-q early game now, thus a powerful mid game, and a bigger late game due to the before mentioned olafing and nerfing. Double whammy that the hyper carries that are beastly right now are anti-tanks (looking at you Fiora, Vayne, etc.) Sorry that this is smewhat all Ranty and not helping just explaining the reasoning and all ... I miss my Tanky Raid Bosses. :'(

DrBaryon2 votes

I hate hearing people cough adc mains cough complain "why do tanks do damage?" Tankiness and damage are only the two most obvious things you can spend your power budget on. That's why Janna's amazing despite usually hitting as hard as a light breeze and dying easily. In Sion's case his budget went into his massive "ideal scenario" tankiness, cc and base damage, which is balanced by his low reliability, non-ult mobility and range. It takes a lot of skill by the Sion player and some serious mistakes by their opponents to get even close to that ideal, and unless Riot wants to put reliability into his kit those rare "power moments" need to have more impact.

Yaskamasandwich2 votes

{quoted}

I hate hearing people cough adc mains cough complain "why do tanks do damage?" Tankiness and damage are only the two most obvious things you can spend your power budget on. That's why Janna's amazing despite usually hitting as hard as a light breeze and dying easily. In Sion's case his budget went into his massive "ideal scenario" tankiness, cc and base damage, which is balanced by his low reliability, non-ult mobility and range. It takes a lot of skill by the Sion player and some serious mistakes by their opponents to get even close to that ideal, and unless Riot wants to put reliability into his kit those rare "power moments" need to have more impact.

Well that was the problem people thought Sion he was too easy to use. The real justified nerf was his e mana cost and his %shield. Being oom meant nothing to Sion because it only cost 35 mana to kill someone and the shield was justified because I could personally stay in the jungle and farm till 6. The nerf damage on e was questionably done (nerfed at all ranks instead of early ranks) and the w timer combined with the item nerfs was the nail in the coffin.

In the end of the day I agree with you 100% that tanks should not deal damage uneless they have a price and Sion's clunkyness was the perfect example. It's sad that someone can just dance while a fully charged q hits and they just laugh it off, or worse, parry and win. Punishment should happen when hit with clunkyness. Now it is easy to avoid, out trade, and prevent just all of Sion's moves.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

i've always wished sion was built more like garen ( huge damage soaking monster with some mobility and kill potential), but I understand he had too much CC for it now

JSTIN81 votes

Big player of sion here, love taking him into the jungle myself instead of top but I see the appeal to him in a solo lane. What I would love seeing is the W delay reduced and the ad ratio on his ult changed up to work more off base ad if he hits one of those long range ults. As it stands his W is a major peice of his damage throughout the game but outside of lane it is really, REALLY hard to get off before the enemy bursts through it. Just my 2 cents.

alfavhunter1 votes

Sion doesn't need more damage

What he does need is the shield nerf reverted, his passive to scale on base hp instead of lvl and a new form of late game damage threat

Idea-let his passive "abilities" cd reset if an enemy champion dies with soon gaining the kill or assist, with the changes to his passive doing damage to sion based on base hp it gives sion a threats mode when ignored by huge cc, and when killed by more mobility and damage if he scores a kill/assist

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

{quoted}

Sion doesn't need more damage

What he does need is the shield nerf reverted, his passive to scale on base hp instead of lvl and a new form of late game damage threat

Idea-let his passive "abilities" cd reset if an enemy champion dies with soon gaining the kill or assist, with the changes to his passive doing damage to sion based on base hp it gives sion a threats mode when ignored by huge cc, and when killed by more mobility and damage if he scores a kill/assist

The shield revert nerfs would be nice, at least a change to the timer. If I recall Riot did not like him trading with it in lane even though that was kind of the point. It was a shield meant to be used offensively if timed right. Now you would be lucky to get it off because the 3 second timer meshes with all his other moves. Have to start with w first instead of e which screams "I AM GOING TO ATTACK YOU! ARE YOU READY? HERE IT COMES NOW!" the % was nerfed because Sion could stay in the jungle without mana or health problems forever until 6 and go back to buy cinderhulk and boots. The clear time with it was also too good for again "The Late Game Tank Raid Boss."

The problem is Riot constantly nerfed Sion both directly and very indirectly with the cinderhulk nerfs and armor nerfs. Everytime that damn % on cinderhulk kept dropping it tore Sion a new one. Your idea of fixing the passive and having late game damage in sacrafice of early game damage would be very nice because that is what Sion is suppose to be since day 1: LATE game, NOT MID game. Right now Sion seems a balanced but olafed champion, the olafed part just needs and then hopefully all that is left is balance.

Though at this point it is really hard for a late game hyper tank to be around with all the amounts of anti tank hyper carries running around. Maybe he and any other hyper end game tank needs an immunity for defenses being denied instead of gaining more damage, even in Sion's case. Reason they become ignored is they can be easily dealt with now late game which they are suppose to be at their best.

DrBaryon2 votes

League of Vayne is definitely a big reason Sion is weak right now. I suspect the only reason his winrate is 49% instead of much lower is because people know better than to pick him into a high mobility tank shredder. I had much greater success in the League of Jinx meta earlier this season. Her chompers don't stop the pain train.

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

{quoted}

League of Vayne is definitely a big reason Sion is weak right now. I suspect the only reason his winrate is 49% instead of much lower is because people know better than to pick him into a high mobility tank shredder. I had much greater success in the League of Jinx meta earlier this season. Her chompers don't stop the pain train.

The rework Fiora didn't help either, never have I seen a chamion get countered essentially 15/-5, everything in her kit from passive to r just shuts down Sion completely.

Sasogwa1 votes

I think, on top of slight QoL buffs, sion's W passive (health stacking) should be immune to %health damage. Every %health based damage such as botrk, Vayne's bolts should not take in account the bonus HP he gets from it. Because as a defensive infinite scaling , it's pretty annoying that it gets auto countered by %health without more thinking than that. And I really don't think it will make him unkillable anyway. Lategame damage dealers are so insane that Sion is still very much killable even with that.

DrBaryon1 votes

I think it would be kind of strange favoritism to make that special exception for Sion, though I do hate playing against Vayne/Fiora with him with a burning passion. One possibility I wish they'd done with the initial rework is give him normal base health (instead of super-low as it is now), halve the w farm and have it go straight to the shield instead of his health, which would prevent % health from auto-countering it. That way if you beat the odds and pull ahead in your lane you can have a really bulky shield like Nautilus late game.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

I think it would be kind of strange favoritism to make that special exception for Sion, though I do hate playing against Vayne/Fiora with him with a burning passion. One possibility I wish they'd done with the initial rework is give him normal base health (instead of super-low as it is now), halve the w farm and have it go straight to the shield instead of his health, which would prevent % health from auto-countering it. That way if you beat the odds and pull ahead in your lane you can have a really bulky shield like Nautilus late game.

They could make it a stat that's not like health And therefore also wouldn't work with Titanic hydra for theoretical infinite scaling damage

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