@RiotRepertoir: A modernization of Zyra as a Mage and Champion in 2018 with her current abilities

Shaian·5/7/2018, 6:32:31 PM·62 votes·18,847 views

Hello, I know you don't have the time to read entire essays, so I will try to make this as short as possible.

What I want to achieve:

  • Make her a better Midlaner
  • Shift a lot of power from her passive into her kit
  • Make Q Max on Midlane a viable choice and preferred choice, without breaking it on Support
  • Reduce early game oppressiveness and increase power later in the game (fix her “win-rate depending on game-length graph”)
  • Increase skill floor by rewarding the player for playing her well
  • Open up more roles/builds/playstyles

My suggestion: https://i.imgur.com/FafJFkI.png

What I want to accomplish with these changes:

  • Bring her HP/level on par with other mages
  • Decrease the squishiness of plants against spells (effects mid more than bot)
  • Reduce passive strength greatly early game with no scaling to reward aggressive gameplay and dealing damage
  • Making better use of seeds and cooldowns is rewarded, so that it’s less "I'm getting ganked and spawn 4 Thornspitters around me" or I snare someone and spawn 2 Vinelashers for max burst, because my kit is delayed").
  • Give Q the little push and QoL change it needs, so you can actually max it. As long maxing Q is inferior, sololane Zyra will not work. Currently, E must be maxed for the CC duration to have kill potential. The small amount of bonus damage on Q is fine for support too, since she loses 60-75% of the amount of seeds she currently has during laning phase as support.
  • Be able to deal damage on tanks. Zyra can't rush Liandries like she used to without losing a lot of damage on carries. Her base damage on tanks is really terrible, especially since it’s likely that the enemy frontline builds Adaptive Helm against her. Zyra can't get through the enemy frontline right now.
  • W Cooldown mostly affects Support Zyra. Reducing it by 2 seconds early game gives her the opportunities she might lack with the passive change
  • Give her a bit of scaling post level 13 and give the player more choices about how they want to play the champ. This could create new item choices like Nashors or Wits End, maybe even Rageblade. It could also make her skill order more versatile.
  • This version makes gold and experience more valuable on her, potentially opening up more roles. She may be able to become a good jungler. Maybe she can be played as an AP carry in the bot lane. I think its an exciting idea, that a champ can be played at all 5 roles. Zyra has the potential!
  • Manacost on W to help her with stacking tear.
  • A decreased damage to plant debuff after landing E because of how snaring works in this game. Melee champions should not get rewarded for getting snared and oneshotting Zyra's plants instantly on spawn without any player input.
  • Manacost changes on Q and W to bring Zyra up-to-date with 100 Manacosts on her ultimate for the rest of the game.
  • Trade quantity of plants in favor of quality. Melee basic attacks still too strong against plants post laning phase. QWREW against mobile melee champions in higher MMR is not possible. They know how important Zyra’s plants are to her and they die instantly. She needs the plant HP before casting her ult more often than the HP on the enraged plants.
  • Last but not least, she is too reliant on her enraged plants to apply bonus damage. Her ultimate is balanced around this bonus since release. Giving it the base amount of reliablity of this damage through ensuring at least 2 enraged attacks is just modernizing this effect.

The changes done to her since July 2016 brought one major issue to her. She gets access to too much power early, leaving no room for her to become stronger when the game goes on. Her passive gives her the exact same issue Syndra had on her Q until this patch. She should not fulfill most of her gameplay fantasy early game, but rather as the game goes on. Like the mage that she is and wants to become.

39 Comments

HalcyonDweller5/7/2018, 8:03:43 PM13 votes

Good analysis, short and to the point, things are listed out very nicely, and overall just a really good post. Have my upvote. +1 I hope that Riot sees your post.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

NorthernRedStar5/7/2018, 10:55:22 PM8 votes

Riot has, over the course of the game and her existence, proven that they hate Zyra.

They hate her because she actually punishes you for failing to dodge and mispositioning / facechecking a bush, etc. Riot hates her because, unlikely their love children Lulu and Janna, she actually has to actively work in order to gain advantage in lane and gold.

Zyra used to be an excellently designed champion that balanced good orb walking and angle adaptation mid-fight, with creative plant placement. Contrary to the popular excuse, her passive was actually a really nice thematic touch, reminiscent of a withering snake inserting its fangs onto your flesh for the final time.

I love some of your suggestions; such as the extended plant longevity of your E hits. And her R changes - that moment should be her highlight. Instead of dealing a little bit of damage and watching your plants die to Swain Q as soon as they spawn.

It's unacceptable how Riot keeps treating her. She was my favorite champion before rework.

P0IS0N IVY5/7/2018, 10:51:09 PM6 votes

Zyra's problem is that her rng passive gives her too much damage potential, and that prevents Riot from being able to buff her properly so that she actually feels rewarding to play. Right now it's just "wow that seedling showed up in the right spot so more damage for me if I vomit all my skills". Her passive just needs another complete rework. The rng is a terrible feature.

Her plant health change also should be reverted, because it's incredibly annoying that people can now just turn around and auto them to death instead of running away if they get ambushed by Zyra. The plants also constantly get killed by accident due to aoe.

Give Zyra fewer plants and allow players to have more control over where they are placed. I'd honestly just prefer if a new passive allowed her to interact with plants that have already been summoned rather than pooping out seedlings.

Lesba Zyra5/7/2018, 6:42:46 PM5 votes

Riot doesn't care. They see Zyra only as a support champ with is shame.

I totally hate that. I've never stopped playing midlane Zyra. Even this season is the worst one that I've ever played. Nerfing her core item item 3151 was the last of nerfs to drop me from chall to low dia.

Feel Apathy5/7/2018, 8:34:49 PM5 votes

Played her exclusively midlane this season.

Common Issues:

Rooting a champion with E and they autohit the closest nearby target [which is usually a plant] and kill it.

E cast time allows for too much "counterplay" , when you're aiming a skillshot, and have to stay in 1 place before you throw it - it's a big no-no, especially for someone that relies solely on flash for mobility. [Brand's cast times are a lot shorter, if there are any at all]

Manaflow band nerf put her in a poor state, you can no longer proc it with a plant hit, and getting close and personal with Zyra gets you killed immediately while aiming the spells is immensely difficult, when the cast time is this long.

BestPudgeNA5/7/2018, 8:57:42 PM5 votes

Oh look it's the weekly Buff Zyra thread. Hi Zyra subreddit See you come to upvote your champ into being broken like Shaco mains did. Good luck with that

https://imgur.com/yibnavk

Nausicäa 5/7/2018, 7:36:21 PM4 votes

Since Riot is doing all these reverts i feel like Zyra can just straight up be reverted to her release state and id be happy.

Muzét5/7/2018, 11:02:23 PM3 votes

It's a really good idea. But I would prefer her plants to receive Illaoi's tentacle treatment: Under ult, plants won't take damage.

Or, some changes should be made on them so they don't take damage from Bramble's Vest/Thornmail and Rammus' W. Any Zyra who played against this know well what i'm talking about <.<

Kaipop5/7/2018, 6:45:21 PM3 votes

I agree with many of these points. Her plants definitely need to be tankier. I also would like it if Riot could make her combos feel smoother to play. It might be helpful for them to look at her cast times/animations because she has to stand still a great amount at mid range while also being extremely immobile and having no defensive capabilities.

OJPhoenix5/9/2018, 8:49:19 AM2 votes

These suggestions are beautiful, great work.

Zyrannosaurus5/7/2018, 11:34:10 PM2 votes

{quoted}

Hello, I know you don't have the time to read entire essays, so I will try to make this as short as possible.

What I want to achieve:

  • Make her a better Midlaner
  • Shift a lot of power from her passive into her kit
  • Make Q Max on Midlane a viable choice and preferred choice, without breaking it on Support
  • Reduce early game oppressiveness and increase power later in the game (fix her “win-rate depending on game-length graph”)
  • Increase skill floor by rewarding the player for playing her well
  • Open up more roles/builds/playstyles

My suggestion: https://i.imgur.com/FafJFkI.png

What I want to accomplish with these changes:

  • Bring her HP/level on par with other mages
  • Decrease the squishiness of plants against spells (effects mid more than bot)
  • Reduce passive strength greatly early game with no scaling to reward aggressive gameplay and dealing damage
  • Making better use of seeds and cooldowns is rewarded, so that it’s less "I'm getting ganked and spawn 4 Thornspitters around me" or I snare someone and spawn 2 Vinelashers for max burst, because my kit is delayed").
  • Give Q the little push and QoL change it needs, so you can actually max it. As long maxing Q is inferior, sololane Zyra will not work. Currently, E must be maxed for the CC duration to have kill potential. The small amount of bonus damage on Q is fine for support too, since she loses 60-75% of the amount of seeds she currently has during laning phase as support.
  • Be able to deal damage on tanks. Zyra can't rush Liandries like she used to without losing a lot of damage on carries. Her base damage on tanks is really terrible, especially since it’s likely that the enemy frontline builds Adaptive Helm against her. Zyra can't get through the enemy frontline right now.
  • W Cooldown mostly affects Support Zyra. Reducing it by 2 seconds early game gives her the opportunities she might lack with the passive change
  • Give her a bit of scaling post level 13 and give the player more choices about how they want to play the champ. This could create new item choices like Nashors or Wits End, maybe even Rageblade. It could also make her skill order more versatile.
  • This version makes gold and experience more valuable on her, potentially opening up more roles. She may be able to become a good jungler. Maybe she can be played as an AP carry in the bot lane. I think its an exciting idea, that a champ can be played at all 5 roles. Zyra has the potential!
  • Manacost on W to help her with stacking tear.
  • A decreased damage to plant debuff after landing E because of how snaring works in this game. Melee champions should not get rewarded for getting snared and oneshotting Zyra's plants instantly on spawn without any player input.
  • Manacost changes on Q and W to bring Zyra up-to-date with 100 Manacosts on her ultimate for the rest of the game.
  • Trade quantity of plants in favor of quality. Melee basic attacks still too strong against plants post laning phase. QWREW against mobile melee champions in higher MMR is not possible. They know how important Zyra’s plants are to her and they die instantly. She needs the plant HP before casting her ult more often than the HP on the enraged plants.
  • Last but not least, she is too reliant on her enraged plants to apply bonus damage. Her ultimate is balanced around this bonus since release. Giving it the base amount of reliablity of this damage through ensuring at least 2 enraged attacks is just modernizing this effect.

The changes done to her since July 2016 brought one major issue to her. She gets access to too much power early, leaving no room for her to become stronger when the game goes on. Her passive gives her the exact same issue Syndra had on her Q until this patch. She should not fulfill most of her gameplay fantasy early game, but rather as the game goes on. Like the mage that she is and wants to become.

THIS THIS THIS

Athenes Lulu5/10/2018, 4:19:14 AM2 votes

As a support main, I am in full support of making Zyra officially a midlaner again, or even into the jungle where she truly belongs :^)

For those that think Riot "doesn't care about Zyra", I'm pretty sure they do, but just can't get the balance lever right and it always ends up putting her back to botlane. But yes, I also hope Riot reads this.

Perma CC5/10/2018, 8:05:57 AM2 votes

I actually prefered pre mid year mage update Zyra. Old Q had more range and felt smoother and yea her passive sucked but at least it was a skill check and impactful in teamfights when she inevitably died. Also her plants... while there were less of them were at least impactful when they werent bugging out and not targeting champions correctly. They did more damage and lasted longer. Just REVERT Zyra PLS.

IxtaliKing5/7/2018, 9:19:02 PM2 votes

I'd take these changes if they brought back the old circular Q. The old Q with the new plant hitbox would make solo laning feel a lot more natural. The rectangle Q seems to be more beneficial for bot lane, tbh.

Vekkna5/8/2018, 10:20:48 PM2 votes

Obviously I agree with your thesis, but my changelog would be completely different.

  • P: The RNG needs to be deleted, not toned down or accommodated in any way whatsoever. In its place, you could give Zyra faster cooldown speed in brush (for support), W refund on CS (for mid), and bonus seeds above the cap (eg, 3+ max stored) when she kills a jungle plant. Then revert plant damage to pre-MYMU

Heck, if you wanted to be really ambitious, you could tweak the passive to do something like this:

Passive: Adaptation - Zyra's first skill point empowers the chosen ability for the remainder of the game.

  • Q: Reverts shape and damage to pre-MYMU; killing minions refunds W time
  • W: Adds one max charge, increases vision radius, seeds slow when stepped on
  • E: Increases root duration and missile speed

Everyone gets a choice, and you play your level 1-2 around it.

  • Q: 2% max hp is nothing. Standard mage Q is 250-300 at rank 5, and this puts Zyra's Q at 260 against an enemy with 3000 hp. Seems too conservative.

  • W: If I understand this correctly, at max rank and with a Nashor's, plants receive a total bonus of 17.5% attack speed. At a base attack speed of .8, that works out to .94 attacks per second. If I'm understanding this correctly, that seems almost negligible.

  • E: Wouldn't it be more fitting to make vinelashers immune to targets under the effect of grasping roots? TS don't really need that immunity. But if you're buffing plant health, is this actually needed in any form?

Subject 55/7/2018, 8:08:54 PM2 votes

I played Zyra adc with my duo,

It's actually pretty good.

https://puu.sh/AhUVx/316cb82b55.png

I think that if they did buff Zyra, it'd be way too insane to deal with. The ONLY reason I am able to ADC Zyra as an AP is because:

  1. I can bully my lane
  2. I rush tear and other mana items, skipping lane phase for 10 minutes
  3. If we get behind, I can stall the game out with my W regeneration and prevent the enemy team from sieging and pushing.

Making her BOTH a laner and a support choice will be a nightmare. Because if I'm viable as a support, then I can 1V1 marksman and other junglers. But if I'm not a viable support and suddenly become a mid laner, then I'll just be able to make sure nobody ever is able to push ever. (I max my Q btw, ten I max my W.)

peepee PNEUMA5/14/2018, 5:57:53 PM1 votes

The ult passive could be called "Undying Sage" for a plant pun.

FilDaFunk5/8/2018, 9:42:48 AM1 votes

{quoted}

Hello, I know you don't have the time to read entire essays, so I will try to make this as short as possible.

  • Give her a bit of scaling post level 13 and give the player more choices about how they want to play the champ. This could create new item choices like Nashors or Wits End, maybe even Rageblade. It could also make her skill order more versatile.

I'm not sure how on hit items would work. Unless plants suddenly applied onhits? Which I don't think is the right direction for her. (I don't think that's what ou meant).

Saianna5/8/2018, 1:06:27 PM1 votes

zyra isn't a mage anymore since like 2 years'ish?

She's a support in mage disguise.

Mezo5/8/2018, 11:39:43 PM1 votes

reverting the plant changes in 7.24 will help a lot. the cooldown refund on W was a needed buff for mid lane Zyra but the plant changes destroyed the champion and reduced her damage ratio by 15-20K in 30+ min games. i dislike her R and Q range because when i always land a good snare with E .. i had to walk towards enemies to complete my full combo and the snare duration is too short and item 3111 make it worse. Also her itemization is weird and makes no sense.

meteorbreaker5/9/2018, 2:07:35 PM1 votes

We can only remind each time of Zyra. In general, a good post, although I do not agree with all ideas. I ask all the Zyra mains to speak and write about Zyra. Let them hear us.

And most importantly Zyra - she's a mage.