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How do Last Whisper and Black Cleaver stack?

Mandang0·6/21/2016, 1:10:52 AM·13 votes·8,616 views

I've searched other threads for this and haven't found a clear explanation, so I'm asking here: how does Cleaver's % total armor reduction stack with LW's % bonus armor penetration (and how does flat penetration factor in as well)? As an example, consider a target with 100 base armor and 200 bonus armor, being attacked with 30% total reduction (Cleaver), 45% bonus penetration (Dominik's/Mortal Reminder), and 20 flat penetration (Ghostblade)? To avoid confusion of the topic, here are some specific questions:

  1. Is the order of application listed on the wiki still accurate? (flat reduction then percent reduction then percent (bonus) pen then flat pen)

  2. Is percent reduction taken proportionally from base and bonus armor (-30 base, -60 bonus in the example), or is it taken from one before the other (-90 bonus or -90 base)?

  3. Is percent bonus penetration multiplicative with the percent reduction? (-0.45x140= -63 bonus for first case above, -0.45x110 or -0.45x200 in the second case, depending on which armor type is reduced first) Or, is it something different altogether?

  4. Just for the sake of bonus armor scaling spells (Taric has a few), is flat penetration subtracted from base armor, bonus armor, or is it proportional? (Assuming the first case above left us with 70 base and 77 bonus armor, does ghostblade put us at 50, ~60, or 70 bonus armor?)

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

PS: Why the hell is an honest question getting downvoted? If you don't have an answer (and, no, the wiki isn't answering this question), then just don't click on the post. Jesus...

UPDATE: Was able to test this, and the stacking works as follows: A) Cleaver 30% reduction applied proportionately to base/bonus armor (100/200 -> 70/140) B) Dominik's 45% bonus pen acts on bonus armor (70/140 -> 70/77) C) Flat pen taken off at the end, doesn't reduce either base or bonus armor because it's pen, not reduction. D) All told, 300 total armor is reduced to 147 total armor.

28 Comments

YumaS2Astral6/21/2016, 5:07:21 AM3 votes

Then, this means that The Black Cleaver makes purchasing Last Whisper less eficient since the enemy will have less bonus armor to be penetrated, right?

z63XnLCMwX6/21/2016, 2:17:49 PM3 votes

Like this item 3035 item 3071 item 3035 item 3071

Vistha Kai6/21/2016, 2:23:56 PM2 votes
  1. The stacking order was given by Riot themselves, so the information on the wiki is as real as it gets.
  2. From what I've noticed reductions are split evenly between base and bonus armor.
  3. Reductions are a debuff and for the purpose of penetration effects enemy armor after the reduction is the one used in calculations. Armor reduction isn't the same as bonus armor penetration, but self-buffs such as Darius' Apprehend' overall armor penetration are multiplicative for the person with the buff. I.E. An enemy with fully stacked BC attacked by Darius has effectively 36% of their armor ignored.
  4. It doesn't really matter, since the penetration only affects the attacker's damage output. Logically - based on reductions - it would be evenly spread between base and bonus armor, however, should it be necessary in calculations. Reductions, however are applied to defender's stats and will affect their scalings.

Using your example, first comes the Black Cleaver reducing base armor from 100 to 70 and bonus from 200 to 140, then LW_(mental shortcut)_ reduces bonus armor from 140 to 77, and finally Ghostblade reduces overall armor to 127 for damage calculations for the person wielding LW and Ghostblade.

DeathBurst6/21/2016, 3:06:33 PM2 votes
  1. Not sure about the order on the wikia. I would say that percent reduction comes before flat reduction, but not sure at all. One thing is sure, though: Reduction applies first, before Penetration.
  2. Reduction is taken from Bonus first, and if the amount is above the Bonus Armor, it then goes to Base. As a consequence, it's a bad idea to stack a Last Whisper and Reduction items.
  3. I think Penetration applies to the modified total after Reduction, so it would be roughly multiplicative (not exactly multiplicative if you have flat Reduction in the middle).
  4. Pretty sure that Reduction affect spells scaling, but not Penetration. So Ghostblade wouldn't affect Taric's scalings at all. But Cleaver or Nasus flames would. And as for 2. above, it's taken from Bonus first.

Re: P.S.: I don't fuckin' know, and that annoys me as hell too, this is a good thread.

AthenasVendetta6/21/2016, 1:12:39 AM2 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration

BloodyTompon6/21/2016, 2:12:51 PM1 votes

  1. Yes, but it's missing one. The order is first: Flat reduction, % reduction, % bonus pen, %total pen then flat pen.

  2. Neither. It's a net reduction in total. Let's say you have 200 reduced to 150. Your base armour is unchanged. It should only take from both if it reduces you below all your bonus armour.

  3. See one. Flat reduction, then % reduction, then % bonus pen, %total pen then flat pen.

4)Armour multipliers do not count as base armour.

Quepha6/21/2016, 2:15:15 PM1 votes

The wiki is still accurate but the order in this case doesn't really matter anyways, all that matters is that they're separate steps.

Because they are applied separately, they stack multiplicatively. Black Cleaver stacks reduce armor to 95%, 90%... down to 70%. Last Whisper ignores 30% armor so you only deal with 70%, its upgrades increase to 45% so you only deal with 55%.

70% x 55% = 55% x 70% = 38.5% armor remaining, contrariwise you ignore 62.5% of the enemy's armor.

UltraGigaNiga6/21/2016, 1:12:23 AM1 votes

Percentage penetration is multiplied. In all honesty though, these details are trivial when you actually play the game.

roitferret6/22/2016, 9:40:47 AM1 votes

what about vi

67chrome6/21/2016, 3:59:36 AM1 votes

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

Most likely scenario for what you're asking is this:

Penetrations effect total armor as one solid chunk rather than treating it as base armor and bonus armor. So if a target has 100 base and 100 bonus, 50% armor reduction will take them down to 100 armor.

Then if you apply 50% bonus armor penetration vs. the now 100 armor target with 100 base armor, you'll treat that 100 armor target as a 100 armor target.

% bonus penetration should also interact with %reduction and %penetration multiplicity.

There's no reason Riot should have changed how penetrations function, so the order in the Wiki should still be accurate.

A Basic Island6/21/2016, 4:01:53 AM1 votes

isn't BC a debuff, so it gets applied first?

Sire Hippington6/21/2016, 12:32:34 PM1 votes
  1. Not sure wether flat reduction is applied befor % reduction, but reduction is applied befor pen, and %pen is applied befor flat pen.
  2. Sadly no idea either
  3. since %reduction is applied befor pen, it will be multiplicative.
  4. **Pen ** (yomuu's, LW...)does not reduce armor and thus doesn't impact scaleings. Shreds like Cleaver do actually reduce the value and thus impact scaleings. And Yet again, i don't know wether flat pen/shred is applied to base or bonus armor or propotional. my best guess would be it applies to bonus armor first, but thats only a guess.
Embertine6/21/2016, 2:02:42 PM1 votes

Ignore applies before penetration which applies after reduction.