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Kha and Eve players playstyle (some of them)

RuFiot·12/25/2017, 2:40:34 PM·1 votes·500 views

They suppose to be early game pressure type jnglers,

  • but instead more and more of them just prefer to afk farm most of the early game till they have their items power spike,
  • then they just wait the adc sup tank or whatever is committed wait till the fight is nearly over and they finally can one-shot the enemy (don't matter if it ks or the enemy killed you)

In early game they can initiate ganks first and go out alive and maybe the laner will take the kill but they prefer not to, they prefer to gank only single lanes (especially kha (passive)) cause it more of a guaranteed kill for THEM (no peel from the sup and less sums, it is easier to assassinate).

they like top the most, long lane so a guaranteed kill, helping some lane by only pressuring the enemy laner for few seconds is a waste of time for them, no matter if they around your lane and it will take only a sec.. no kill no gank.

I had so many games with a fed kha and a starving adc (and top or mid) reach to late game obviously we lost, they fed but

  • they can't split push properly and if they do they will just starve some laner more, in team fights
  • they can't initiate so they just wait for their starving team to get some one low enough so they can "get" a kill or two (they need to pad their score so it's usually a ks and a kill) then they die, giving another shutdown, the assists gold that the team are getting are low cause they keep dying after the all-ins (and resetting it).

They just don't care, they have a nice kda so they don't even try to improve from game to game (unhealthy)

we need something that better predicts the player performance then a kda, and then maybe they will try to fix their playstyle.

I had a game with maokai support getting banged by kog (not late game kog yet) and nami while I just wait for the fed eve to go in first (I wanted to check if he is an egoistic kda player), but if she goes in before me her combo just leave him with 50~100 hp and god forbid the adc will take the kill, we just waited while maokai getting raped then she decided nami low enough went in killed her, kog killed maokai and then died, yea.. if she went early she could 1v2 the m if she wanted.. but kda is more important, kills kills kills.

You can maybe say it's common to all of the assassin type junglers but i commonly see it in those players nowadays .

tl;dr Kha and Eve players are bunch of sadistic egocentric pieces of garbage.

22 Comments

Azadethe12/25/2017, 4:02:56 PM2 votes

I'm going to counterpoint a little.

Eve: I firmly believe there is an asymmetry in the understanding of how Eve works from the standpoint of laners versus the actual Eve player.

Eve is horribly vulnerable early game in high elo play. She's going to be invaded, zombie warded, and usually has very little opportunity to do anything about it. Level 2-3, No laners are warding rivers for potential junglers going into friendly jungle: They are warding the bush nearest to them, or not at all. This is 90% of high elo Eve jungle: 1 ward for 3-4 avenues of gank, loss of buffs, etc, no actual peel.

At the same time, laners don't expect to compensate for that, and counter roam, and stay to their lanes. Not only that; they PUSH their lanes. Evelynn can compensate the invades - if her laners are setting up gank opportunities. Yet, again, the majority of Eve jungled teams tend to push, depriving her of her gank, or at least ganks that would ensure a kill without dying.

So those teams screw Eve over in two ways: She's alone in her jungle vs 1-2 invaders (fun when Talon mid gets to camp her blue, while Lee Sin and Shyvana top camp her red, leaving her no chance at all to even exist), and she isn't given an opportunity to get her ganks (but the laners still want them, complain when they die to being full pushed, etc).

Then, we need to look at mid game, once lanes are moving toward the better laners and you generally know who is going to feed/has fed and who isn't. If Eve's bot loses their lane first, It's almost guaranteed Evelynn's farm is over for the rest of the game. Both her own team and the other team are going to farm her jungle, leaving her with nothing to farm. She sucks at lane farming, so while the laners have equal opportunity farming lanes/jungle, Evelynn is stuck farming 1/2 of a wave reliably, because once her Q is done, she's pretty much down to auto attacks for 6 seconds. If this happens, Eve isn't going to be worth crap until a very late game (around 30 minutes+). She won't have enough items to dive and carry (usually when this happens she might be done with her jungle item and only 1 component of a lich bane, while the other team might have 3 items on their adc), so when her team gets caught out, she more or less has to decide: stand by and watch, or go in and die too. At this point, her team has turned the game into a 4v5. in 10 minutes, when her base is almost dead, Evelynn might be able to zone and kill a couple of the other team in her own base, but the game might be over by then too.

Eve is not an effective lane pusher unless she has minions. She's not an effective baron taker, especially if she doesn't have Ravenous Hunter (She actually dies in like 3 hits without it). She's not a solo Drake taker until after about 1 1/2 items, so when she doesn't have a reliable bot..... ditto. Without a team, she's basically an occasion assassin who can lose a 28/9/19 game because she's all alone.

You'll find Assassins who rely on teams, rather than the other way around, universally fail to get 50+% win rates. The ones who teams rely on, have 60%+ win rates on players with over 200 games on that champ.

Kha: Kha is far easier to carry on. He shouldn't be in the same conversation as Evelynn, and he SHOULD be getting the kills. If he doesn't Kha will fall off, and he will become part of the lower statistic of Kha players. Kha's basic role is to nonstop gank from level 2. If he waits until 6 to gank, he's mediocre, and will scale poorly and you'll have an average team to fight against. If he's ganked the other jungler (super easy with his passive) and owns his jungle, he'll have a very early duskblade, and 5 times the lane pressure of the jungler he shut down.

But..... once late game hits..... that's where Kha's win rate plummets. After the game becomes "protect mid" and the gank opportunities dry up, so does Kha. This is especially true in late base fallen stages of the game, where, the only kills Kha can try to get, are detected and visual and grouped.

The only time Kha should be giving up kills is once he's full build. It's also very likely the adc you support him feeding kills to wouldn't use them correctly. Unless the game is a game where both the enemy and friend adc are doing well, it's very likely 10 kills won't help them. They will still run when they should be orbing or attacking, and still feed a lot more gold to the other team, since they aren't just 1/10 and worth 33g, but rather worth 450-300g. If an adc can't carry, it's better to leave them worth nothing, so that the other team starves.

And, Eve and Kha players are not ego-centric. They just know how squishy they are, how fast they die, how little they can sustain, and how much gold they are worth if they die. Asking a 4/0 Evelynn to jump into a 1v3 where the adc is 10/1 and jungler is 3/4 and support is 0/1/12 probably isn't a good idea for Eve, no matter if there's someone whose executeable or not. If Eve tries, she's likely to die before she can get that execute, and even if she does get it, the other two are going to kill her for 300g. Kha and Eve more or less also know this: they are far less effective in brawls than in solos. Kha is worthless in a team fight unless he's super fed, because his passive is off. Evelynn is a single target sniper for the most part, who also is worthless in team fights.

So.... my suggestion? Don't blame the Kha/Eve for playing smart. Play Smart yourself. Don't get caught or start fights you can't finish with/without her/him. If they see the opportunity to help, they will. But you need to create them, not expect those champs to create them for you.

WolfChases12/25/2017, 5:17:30 PM2 votes

{quoted}

They suppose to be early game pressure type jnglers,

  • but instead more and more of them just prefer to afk farm most of the early game till they have their items power spike,
  • then they just wait the adc sup tank or whatever is committed wait till the fight is nearly over and they finally can one-shot the enemy (don't matter if it ks or the enemy killed you)

In early game they can initiate ganks first and go out alive and maybe the laner will take the kill but they prefer not to, they prefer to gank only single lanes (especially kha (passive)) cause it more of a guaranteed kill for THEM (no peel from the sup and less sums, it is easier to assassinate).

they like top the most, long lane so a guaranteed kill, helping some lane by only pressuring the enemy laner for few seconds is a waste of time for them, no matter if they around your lane and it will take only a sec.. no kill no gank.

I had so many games with a fed kha and a starving adc (and top or mid) reach to late game obviously we lost, they fed but

  • they can't split push properly and if they do they will just starve some laner more, in team fights
  • they can't initiate so they just wait for their starving team to get some one low enough so they can "get" a kill or two (they need to pad their score so it's usually a ks and a kill) then they die, giving another shutdown, the assists gold that the team are getting are low cause they keep dying after the all-ins (and resetting it).

They just don't care, they have a nice kda so they don't even try to improve from game to game (unhealthy)

we need something that better predicts the player performance then a kda, and then maybe they will try to fix their playstyle.

I had a game with maokai support getting banged by kog (not late game kog yet) and nami while I just wait for the fed eve to go in first (I wanted to check if he is an egoistic kda player), but if she goes in before me her combo just leave him with 50~100 hp and god forbid the adc will take the kill, we just waited while maokai getting raped then she decided nami low enough went in killed her, kog killed maokai and then died, yea.. if she went early she could 1v2 the m if she wanted.. but kda is more important, kills kills kills.

You can maybe say it's common to all of the assassin type junglers but i commonly see it in those players nowadays .

tl;dr Kha and Eve players are bunch of sadistic egocentric pieces of garbage.

Wtf? Am I the only one here who thinks that such thing as "starving laners" doesnt exist? I play Evelyn a lot, and most of the time my KDA on her is perfect like 22-4-10, 17-5-6 etc, yes, i took a lot of kills and have almost 70% kill partitipation mid game but thats not starwing. If I killed your enemy laner 3 times in a row and sent him back in base, you have a free farm, free lane controll, free push or a free roam. I remember one game when I ganked enemy Xerath 3 times in first 7 minutes and killed him, he than proceeds to 1v1 my Lux who had free farm because Xerath was annihilated. Its not my fault, its yours. If endgame score is 30-35 and your jungler has 15 kills and 10 assists its almost 100% kill partitipation, how can you lose that game if he provided you free laning phase? If I kill your enemy 3 times in a row, its only your fault for not taking his turret.

Weathered12/25/2017, 3:22:58 PM1 votes

Hey, Platinum Kha'Zix main here. While I don't fully agree with some of what you are saying, I agree on the point about fed jungle and starving laners. A lot of the issues I've been having in games is that I end up doing very well in the early game with gank pressure and objectives, however I start to fall off after the mid game item spike that follows that early pressure. At this point, if I haven't been giving most of the kills to laners, the team overall feels week because I'm not able to have constant pressure in team fights (only in backline burst or skirmishes).

Personally, what I'd like to see is either a change to better allow those early assassin junglers to push objectives and have a larger opportunity to end early or a change to have more sustained utility in a fight at the cost of late game burst. One of my favorite times was when Maw/Steraks did not have conflicting passives, allowing for a more tanky build that did not have as much burst as a full AD one. This way, I could evolve Kha'Zix's W last for some more poke and teamfighting.

lolipopevelynn12/25/2017, 7:41:50 PM1 votes

as a eve main i will say that ANY eve who "afk farms" jg is simply bad or new at the champion. even pre 6 you have to do something. even just walking in a lane and pressing W is better than just afk farming. starving ADC is the fault of the ADC player. ADCs dont need kills, only minion farm.

PopcornBunni12/25/2017, 8:28:57 PM1 votes

Post rework Evelynn is really horrid at engaging. Her stealth radius combined with lower damage output from her Q, no AS steroid or multiple on-hit applications from her E, having a slower base movement speed, being item reliant (Predator, item 3742, item 3800) in lieu of her movement speed steroid W, ult changing to an execute (which is fine in the context of her being an assassin, but obviously worse as an engage tool), and her new W literally telling the opponent you're ganking, the low pressure she exerts, lack of followup damage, an fragility against counter jungling and counter ganking make her very poor before she has a significant amount of items bolstering her bust damage.

Every time I talk about Eve, I bring up that her W takes power budget from the rest of her kit, and I still hold true to that. As much as I complained about it announcing that you're ganking, it would be much healthier if the arrow indicator for it showed up 1 and a half seconds earlier into the priming process. As-is now, by the time the arrow shows up, the charm is already fully primed, meaning the opponent can not reliably react to the ability, or more pertinently, her damage combo, with sufficient information. Thus, she needs to have slower move speed and a higher stealth detection radius to allow her charm target to move away in time.

Put the charm arrow 1.5 seconds earlier and they have a consistent way to react to her hard engage, which opens up a massive amount of power budget for the rest of her core mechanics. It lets her have faster move speed or even a move speed steroid toward her charm victim since the arrow will alert them to her direction in time to deal with it, it lets her other abilities have more damage or mechanics, like double on-hit effects on E (or at least its empowered version), and especially allows her to have a smaller stealth radius, since the burst without a charm isn't guarantied.

Nut on my Butt12/25/2017, 8:57:54 PM1 votes

You have no idea what you're talking about and you're making an ass out of yourself.

Eve is garbage early game and should focus on hitting level 6 asap most the time. The only time she should be ganking before that point is if the enemy's are really low or far extended.

And if laners are "starved" because they aren't getting kills, then they probably need to work on their cs'ing, because that should be more than enough to stay ahead if someone is killing your enemies.