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Xeraths Ultimate. -- Gameplay Balance - Xerath // Jhin.

Endusal··32 votes·2,652 views

Alright, so I've played a lot of Xerath, since he first came out to the present point.

I understand that he has a "half-of-the-cooldown-is-refunded-if-no-barrages-are-cast" but consider this, (also, what would be the point in having that kind of passive on an ultimate which is DESIGNED to be an execute? having that kind of passive, in retrospect, makes the ultimate completely useless if you only need to fire a single shot)

Jhins ultimate does FAR more damage, AND has a slow, on top of that, it decimates minion waves. (Xeraths does probably about the same ONLY when he gets maximum rank, after he receives a 5th barrage, disregarding the slow, and it's certainly not as powerful as Jhins when it comes to wave-clear)

Jhins ultimate, again, like Xeraths, has several shots.

What I don't like, (and it's not even the rambling I've put above, that's not even the main concern here), and it's been IRKING me since forever now, is the fact that Jhins ultimate refunds some (sometimes, a lot) of its cool-down if not all of the shots are used, whereby if you use even a SINGLE Rite Of The Arcane Barrage, it instantly gets put on full cool-down.

(this also applies to Xerath being displaced, or stunned, it gets put on full cool-down, EVEN if no shot is fired. However if Jhin receives the same treatment, stun-locked, killed, e.t.c, Jhin STILL has his ultimate refunded some of its cool-down depending on the amount of shots fired.

No, I am not asking for a damage buff, Nor am I asking for a direct cool-down reduction, but since you are technically (that's why you have ultimates, to finish them off, right?) having to kill them with your ultimate, I think a refund on cool-down depending on how many shots have been fired should be implemented.

It is EXACTLY the same type of ability (an execute from range, if you will, and not only that, Xeraths ultimate actually has a higher cool-down than Jhins anyway)

Otherwise, it is simply imbalanced and not structured properly, given that the same type of ability has distinct advantages over the other.

41 Comments

Alüe8 votes

Amazingly, I've made this point many times before... Downvoted into oblivion for the simple fact that everyone states xerath's ult has a much larger range and can throw it anywhere in his vicinity. While Jhin is linear and only what is infront of him... Even with this I would think a 5% cd refund would be appropriate if they wished to have bridged the gap..

Astôlfo8 votes

Sure, a refund system of some sort would be okay. However, Jhin and Xerath are two completely different champions, there is not a need for every part of their kit to be the same. That being said, there is nothing wrong with adding a refund system to Xerath's ult.

On a separate note, people crying about Jhin being overloaded/OP/whatever is hilarious.

Aeszarck1 votes

{quoted}

Sure, a refund system of some sort would be okay. However, Jhin and Xerath are two completely different champions, there is not a need for every part of their kit to be the same. That being said, there is nothing wrong with adding a refund system to Xerath's ult.

On a separate note, people crying about Jhin being overloaded/OP/whatever is hilarious.

Xerath would need power taken from elsewhere then, because this is a straight out buff to a pretty balanced but underplayed champion.

Kivolan7 votes

I'd rather they just change it to charges.

You gain 1 charge every x seconds.

When I made this thread before I got downvoted to oblivion for pointing out that Jhin's ult is a Xerath ult on Steroids. Far easier to land, way more damage and a HUGE built in slow so that it doesn't even have to be used as an execute, it can just be used to allow his teammates to catch up and get the kill.

Jhin's ult can 1 shot most any squishy just by landing 2 or 3 hits because of the ridiculous damage on the last hit. It should really only reward that extra damage if he lands every other shot.

Synnx75 votes

miss when W was his R before his shitty rework.

Gosh Darn5 votes

Xerath is performing horribly and has gone downhill since they poured tons of MS into the game and got rid of mana regen. His ult is not even that impressive. Compare it to point and click nukes like Syndra's ult, or even Velkoz's long range nuke. Landing all 3-5 orbs is next to impossible and even then it's just damage in a small radius which forces you to root yourself for 3+ seconds.

DrCyanide4 votes

With Xerath, you often are mashing R as fast as possible to try and land that first hit, which can lead to the target dying before you really have a chance to know if you can hold that first shot anyway.

Narasimha4 votes

It is EXACTLY the same type of ability (an execute from range, if you will, and not only that, Xeraths ultimate actually has a higher cool-down than Jhins anyway)

This might be where the problem is coming from. They are NOT the same type of ability. Jhin's ultimate is meant to execute because of the missing health scaling. Xerath's ultimate is just super artillery mode. It can be used as a finisher, aye, but it's also equally viable to use just for the damage.

Caítlyn3 votes

Riot in the design room for Jhin

"Guys what should we do for his ultimate?" "Lets give him Caitlyns ult, but let him shoot it 4 times! Because hes all about the number 4 LOL" "Lets make it slow too, because why the hell not!" "And make the 4th bullet do like 1000 damage! cuz it looks kool!"

Troll for Trump1 votes

"Graves had a reload system! And look how much everyone loves him, and how balanced he is!"

"Let's slap that onto Jhin!"

"Stupidly high numbers and overloaded kits? Hoorah!"

Astôlfo1 votes

looooooooooool ok

Astôlfo1 votes

loooool ok

arrowhead21k3 votes

The reason is because Xerath's ult is just plain better. you can use Xerath's ult in any direction and it can be used for more than just finishing your enemies. Unlike Jhin who's ult relies heavily on the target's health which makes every shot he fires more powerful and important and it also makes it less versatile. not to mention Xerath becomes immune to displacement while ulting and it can't get body blocked by other champions.

Evewynn3 votes

Jhin's ult can 100-0 a squishy if he lands all 4 shots, which is easy if they're caught out and don't have mobility. And it provides a powerful slow on each shot, which does make it versatile, probably moreso than xerath since it literally only does damage. So...I dunno if there's any grounds to saying that Xerath ult is strictly better.

Astôlfo3 votes

Well gee, I guess he totally shouldn't get any sort of actual reward for landing all four shots. Also, it's totally not like they can't be bodyblocked. Or you know, escaped by just leaving the sides, unlike Xerath's ult which is just a massive circle range AoE. And Jhin's ult depends on missing health. Sure, it slows a target, but in the middle of a teamfight, that's not really relevant since everyone is fighting anyways. Which means it won't do as much damage unless he uses it as a finisher. While Xerath can just ult willy-nilly from the start to deal AoE damage to people clumped together.

Kivolan1 votes

{quoted}

The reason is because Xerath's ult is just plain better. you can use Xerath's ult in any direction and it can be used for more than just finishing your enemies. Unlike Jhin who's ult relies heavily on the target's health which makes every shot he fires more powerful and important and it also makes it less versatile. not to mention Xerath becomes immune to displacement while ulting and it can't get body blocked by other champions.

Ooh, exciting, one form of CC won't stop the channel but everything else will. You're also a sitting duck regardless.

Direction doesn't matter. It's not that hard to turn around / face where you want to aim. Jhin's ult can 100-0 in two or three hits. Health doesn't matter one bit, only jacks a shit ton of unnecessary damage on the last shot.

arrowhead21k1 votes

One form of CC is better than nothing also Jhin can face where he wants to aim his ult but once he ults he can't turn around so all you need to do is walk behind him. Even if Jhin does hit all his shots, I've seen him fail to kill an ADC at full health with his ult.

Penns3 votes

I wonder how many dashes are worse than Fizz E... So I guess we should buff all of them, because dashes shouldnt have "distinct advantages" over other dashes, even if one is on a long range AP mid laner and the other one on an adc? That would be simply imbalanced, so I suggest giving every dash in the game untargetability Kappa

Grimztaa3 votes

As a Xerath Main, I agree to this. Riot... if you're out there... please give Xerath a recall animation too. Only guardians of sands has recall animation. item 3070 Xerath item 3070

JustMonika133 votes

The thing is Xerath has WAY more consistent poke, and long ranged poke at that. Sure Jhin has his high damage medium ranged Q and his long-ish cooldown W for poke, but he can't exploit them from the range Xerath can. Xerath also suffers less from mana problems, especially in the early game, due to his passive. Xerath doesn't have to rely on his team for his CC, and it's a stun at that. Sure, Jhin can auto into W a target, but it's often better to have a teammate auto instead, and it's just a snare at that; anyone that has some sort of ranged ability, as well as ranged champions can retaliate still.

Also, Xerath can say fuck you to the front line in a team fight and go straight for a squishy with his ult (will it kill them I dunno), while Jhin's ultimate shots stop at the first champion hit.

SlampieceHawke2 votes

I sincerely agree. I think Jhins ult is like a Caitlyn ult on steroids... and they're both unhealthy right now.

Astôlfo1 votes

looool ok

zlumpy2 votes

I think Jhin is just very over loaded atm and will most likely see some reductions somewhere down the line shortly. I mean why does he even spawn traps on targets killed? They can do way too much dmg in a hectic teamfight due to insane ratios.

Arakadia2 votes

Their easy to dodge to be frank

zlumpy1 votes

right up until he gets a setup. The good jhins are nasty snipers who watch for those cc's and make plays off them instead of just tunnel visioning a single target who is actively looking for his shots to dodge.

EfficientDynamo2 votes

Agreed. Landing a Xerath ult feels way more difficult and less rewarding compared to a Jhin ult, especially when you look at other factors like the slow and vision granted by Jhin's ult hits.

Zonkman2 votes

Yeah but Xerath isn't as artsy

Guy Fox Teemo2 votes

Because, Xeraths is a Circle, which makes what it lacks in damage A LOT more powerful. (It also does a lot of damage even without the enemy being low, and is AOE)

Troll for Trump2 votes

Jhin's R is aoe too, albeit smaller, but still can hit multiple targets. Xerath's requires a lot more AP, while Jhin, by the nature of the kit just ends up with really high AD.

Astôlfo2 votes

Except you can't bodyblock Xerath's ult.

Guy Fox Teemo1 votes

You can't hit multiple it stops on the first target , I've never once seen it hit mutually ever

Troll for Trump1 votes

It doesn't go through, it's just a small circle, sort of like Reksai's projectile.

Rozair2 votes

xereth has the most range in the game he doesnt need anymore help

iDarkWind2 votes

Xerath doesn't need any kind of changes. Don't tell me that's in a bad situation, far as I know, Xerath still being the same mage with insane Poke. Now you just want to buff his ultimate because there's a better version on other champion? By that logic there are many other things we need to change then.

And I don't think he's in a bad spot, it's BS. Those Sweet mages are always in bad spots, meanwhile the last Xerath I saw was not feed and was able to take almost half of my ADC's HP with one Q. How much fun it's to lose half of your HP from a long range ability? You can tell me it's a skillshot and you can miss it, but it's not big deal, since the AP Items rework you get easly 40% cooldown and just have it everysingle time.

"Oh my god he has no mobility!!!" He has long range abilitys and CC and on top of that his ultimate to finish. He's good. Also don't tell me he has so many manas issues. He has his passive, wich makes him a pain to deal with in lane.

LordOfTheLeague2 votes

Xerath Ultimate is such a deception for me..

Saianna2 votes

I wanted to make similar post comparing both ultimates.

But Do I even have to? It's obvious that Jhins ultimate, as a new champion, following Riots power creep policy is simply stronger than Xeraths...

Mogarl1 votes

I was just recently in a game as Xerath where I killed a fleeing enemy with the first couple shots and had 2 left. It just left a feeling of "what do I do with these?". I think a small reduction in the cooldown based on remaining shots would be nice to have to reward a Xerath that didn't have to spray his ult all over the place, but I don't think it's a necessary buff if it ends up costing him power elsewhere. Maybe if he needs a small buff in the future this would be a good place to look.

ChaosThief1 votes

Xerath's ult isn't worthless if you walk to the side though; jhin's ult aims at a cone and can completely miss afterwards due to range, while xerath's is a circle, meaning they either have to risk running farther away or hope to avoid the shots.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Can't agree more. I was already happy with the minor zoom out (which was severely needed) and this other QoL would really make Xerath more worth of his place.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Simply put, I miss the old xerath; when he actually played like an artillery mage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v5MmuMJ2qU Here's a before & after his rework for those of you too new to remember. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZUeckDq2p0

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