Let's Talk Hook Supports

DivineMantra·9/26/2019, 5:48:44 AM·11 votes·10,136 views

Throughout season 9, hook supports have been quite strong, but after these Blitzcrank changes, I think it's time we talk about hook/engage supports: they're simply too good. Nautilius, Thresh, Blitz, Pyke, and Leona are all very dangerous at the current moment, and its not that they are strong, theyre so oppressive that it makes it almost impossible to play against.

Due to the amount of damage in this current meta being so high, once you are ccd, you're probably going to die. Additionally, when you give all of these hook supports tools to escape, do lots of damage, gap close, and be tanky, its impossible for an enchanter or mage to peel/poke out hook/engage, even if you're positioning like a god. For example, on 9.19, Blitz has a 63 to 37 winning matchup into Karma, which is honestly crazy. Essentially, hook and engage supports are way too good with few windows to actually punish them. Many of these champions abilities (for example Thresh's hook) have had the cooldown reduced so much that he can really just keep throwing it out whenever he wants. It's really sad how these champions were once regarded as more skill expressive because you had to manage your abilities with these champions in previous seasons, but riot has continued to buff hook/engage for many patches, and I can honestly say that now it's gotten out of hand.

Now, I am bias, I will admit. I am a Diamond enchanter support main, but all of my points can be backed by hard numbers. I am aware that ardent was too strong in season 7/8 and I am not asking for us to go back to that time. However, what I am asking for is for Riot to just look at the support matchups and data for their champs (because honestly I don't think they do). Who do you always see at the top? Yes, it's the five champs I listed. Why are they buffing champions that didn't even struggle in the first place? (I.e. Blitz, leona, Fiora/Riven ~ I know these are top lane, but they also got buffs for no reason too). Also, whenever you go into ranked, all these hook and engage support players just ban Morgana so they don't have to deal with her black shield. And you know what's even funnier? Morgana doesn't even win matchups into engage anymore, because she has seen her fair share of nerfs. This really leaves only Janna that can effectively peel, and even then, Janna doesn't have the tools that she used to to make she her AD doesnt die from a Nautilus combo or thresh hook.

So what should Riot do about these changes? Well, I propose two things. For one, and I think the entire league community will agree with me on this, for the love of god, nerf aftershock. Its the only rune since the new rune release that hasn't seen any sort of appropriate nerf, while pretty much every other rune was tuned down somewhere along the season. It provides way too much tank stats (which is then followed up by damage), for it to be considered balanced. Additionally, all of these hook supports synergize so well with the keystone that it just adds an unnecessary level to their power. Second, just straight up revert some of the changes made to these hook supports. Here are somethings that I think they can do.

Blitzcrank Blitz: Whoever came up with the range buff on his Q should really be called into question for how they do their job. This change is blatant gross negligence for support players. No one wanted, asked, or needed this change. Just revert it.

Thresh Thresh: Can we talk about how Thresh has never been considered weak since I've started playing League three years ago? I'm not saying he should be considered "weak," but it's just crazy to me how he's never really been out of the meta for the 3 seasons I've played through. Revert the cd buffs that you guys gave to his hook a while back. This will make sure Thresh players have to think about when they are throwing out the hook, as opposed to just spamming it like they do now.

Nautilus Nautilus: I know they "nerfed" his Q damage a few patched ago, but that was a joke. He still does way too much damage for how easy it is to land a hook (or even just point click for an ult). A damage nerf on his ultimate or Q (probably both) would probably be the best way to fix nautilus.

Pyke Pyke: Nerf the amount of gold that he gives to his allies. It's honestly insane how sometimes Ill spectate games with pyke in it, and he winds up having more gold than the enemy AD, simply because of his ability to generate SO much gold. Also, tone down the healing that he gets from the grey health. It's literally impossible to poke him down.

Leona Leona: Honestly, Leona is probably the most balanced one on here. Don't get me wrong, she is very strong, but I think only a slight nerf is probably needed for Leo. I would say probably lower the damage on her W a little, or increase the cd on her Q. The fact that her Q is on a 5 second cd at the start of the game is a little too strong in my opinion.

Here are just some of my thoughts on hook supports. What do you guys think?

49 Comments

Sune9/26/2019, 6:07:23 AM8 votes

As another diamond enchanter main, I completely agree how hook champs just feel so bad to play against right now. The game usually doesn't go late enough to "outscale". This forces us to play agressive early, and put 3 points into are damage ability first. We always have to put ourselves in the range of hooks, while the only defense is the minion wave. One hook = death or all sums used. It's playable but really annoying how they can just keep missing and just back off. On top of them all being tanky compared to us, while doing the same or more damage. The only real peeling during the early levels is CCing the enemy adc, Nami Q or Janna Q. It's why those 2 feel so much better than the other enchanters. (Lulu's W range is not safe enough against an enemy ADC, works gr8 for assassins still)

Then they just buy mobi boots, and walk up to your face, or bother other lanes/junglers. At this point they'll have CDR, and points put into the ability. So if they miss in lane, the window just gets even smaller.

I've played some games where hooks were ultimates lol, for such a high pressure ability I'd think the CD or Mana cost would be higher. Sure it's relatively high at level 1, but janna shield is around the same at level 1. I just ban Naut everygame right now, Thresh added utility is more annoying (since he can do stuff even if he misses), Blitz was the most fair to play against but now they added range, Pyke still has insane regen for w/e reason ontop of gold share.

King Braum9/26/2019, 7:20:49 AM7 votes

Maybe I'm not effected by this as a Burst Support player but it's this the point?

Hook champions are disruptors, they're ment to grab your backline and pull them in for a quick kill enchanters are the backline and priority targets. Besides most enchanters ie; Janna, Lulu, Nami. Have movement speed steroids to avoid hooks and Hard CC to directly respond to a hit hook. And this goes without mentioning how high the base cooldown is of Blitz' Q sitting at a 20 second cooldown from level 1 and 9-10 seconds with max CDR giving you plenty of opportunities to punish Blitz for playing aggressive if he misses.

only luciano9/26/2019, 9:23:58 AM5 votes

It would be better if after shock did no damage.

Nightshade Rose9/26/2019, 2:10:30 PM4 votes

You forgot to mention that pyke gets double gold for himself if he executes someone.

CurS1VE9/26/2019, 9:20:53 PM3 votes

man shut the fuck up lol would you rather be in Ardent Meta Again? like you guys are prisoners of the moments for sure and hey maybe you enjoyed the ardent meta and thats what you want to see more of but it's fairly obv that Riot saw that ppl didn't like that meta at all and so they heard players and instead went in the exact opposite direction!

So if you are against Hook supports are you for a more Ardent + Enchanter focused game?

You should understand what it is you are asking for

if Hook supports are poor then enchanter supports become the thing to play right? or possibly mage supports; hook supports are still only engaging on 1 person, if you get something with a ardent meta again you are instead forgoing any sort of engage for some bullshit slow scaling (i picked a champ that scales better even tho i'm worse) sorta stuff and most ADC that do scale hard become less and less skill based and also become stronger team fighters as the game progresses

Honestly i don't really care if you are higher elo than me, you just sound like a prisoner of the moment and the fact that you sound like that just lets me know you are on some form on tilt because of something that happened to you and because of that I think your topic is even more ridiculous then the "Lets add a I'm Drunk Button".

The fact that you cannot actually see +/- anymore is already a pretty telling sign and even if you try to phrase things rationally I think it's clear you aren't being rational because if you were you would've already seen what I brought up who btw I am only Silver and I see it pretty clearly.

So yea basically shut up

Anime Fizz9/26/2019, 4:16:45 PM3 votes

Blitz was the only hook supp that wasant overpowered, until the last patch hit now hes one of the strongest.

I do agree all hook sups need some hard nerfs, they are broken.

EternalDominate9/26/2019, 9:24:16 PM3 votes

Huh, so the actual somewhat fun supports that roam and impact the game should be nerfed and instead we should all just play enchanters, Okay.

LordGeovanni9/26/2019, 11:52:14 PM2 votes

Hook skill shots are harder to land than most other skill shots in the game. (leona's E isnt a hook its a root and dash)

WashyMoney9/26/2019, 11:40:30 PM2 votes
  1. Already reverted the Thresh cd buffs, read the patch notes.

  2. Thresh has been weak. Ardent meta. Read about it. Or before they changed AfterShock to give a bunch of base ARM/MR

  3. Enchanter mains don't have an opinion. Learn how to play the game instead of expecting other people to carry ur ass every game.

Thresh Outta Fux9/26/2019, 4:11:33 PM2 votes

{quoted} So what should Riot do about these changes? Well, I propose two things. For one, and I think the entire league community will agree with me on this, for the love of god, nerf aftershock. Its the only rune since the new rune release that hasn't seen any sort of appropriate nerf, while pretty much every other rune was tuned down somewhere along the season. It provides way too much tank stats (which is then followed up by damage), for it to be considered balanced. Additionally, all of these hook supports synergize so well with the keystone that it just adds an unnecessary level to their power. Second, just straight up revert some of the changes made to these hook supports. Here are somethings that I think they can do.

I disagree. Aftershock is one of the few defensive runes that actually can save a tank in League of Oneshot. The nerfs need to happen in damage across the board before Aftershock gets hit. Conquerer definitely needs to be deleted first as well.

Blitzcrank Blitz: Whoever came up with the range buff on his Q should really be called into question for how they do their job. This change is blatant gross negligence for support players. No one wanted, asked, or needed this change. Just revert it.

Yes, this is a stupid change. Blitz was fine, it's part of Riot's "Change for the sake of Change" mentality.

Thresh Thresh: Can we talk about how Thresh has never been considered weak since I've started playing League three years ago? I'm not saying he should be considered "weak," but it's just crazy to me how he's never really been out of the meta for the 3 seasons I've played through. Revert the cd buffs that you guys gave to his hook a while back. This will make sure Thresh players have to think about when they are throwing out the hook, as opposed to just spamming it like they do now.

As an ADC Thresh main, when I support/adc against an enemy Thresh it's really laughable how easy it is to punish the Q-spammer playstyle. I wouldn't mind his Q cooldown being reverted like you said, but if you really want to balance Thresh, make it so that enemies can take his lantern. Oh, trying to save your Caitlyn who has 5hp left? Well shit, looks like the enemy Alistar just took your lantern, and you's bout to get trampled son.

Nautilus Nautilus: I know they "nerfed" his Q damage a few patched ago, but that was a joke. He still does way too much damage for how easy it is to land a hook (or even just point click for an ult). A damage nerf on his ultimate or Q (probably both) would probably be the best way to fix nautilus.

Nautilus never belonged in the bot lane as anything more than a niche support pick. His E cooldown buffs from a few seasons ago need to be reverted, and more of his power needs to be focused into his W.

Pyke Pyke: Nerf the amount of gold that he gives to his allies. It's honestly insane how sometimes Ill spectate games with pyke in it, and he winds up having more gold than the enemy AD, simply because of his ability to generate SO much gold. Also, tone down the healing that he gets from the grey health. It's literally impossible to poke him down.

Ban this boi every game until an R change goes through. Execute+Aoe+range+reset+lethality+ADscaling far too strong on his R alone, and his kit otherwise is still disgustingly good. I even ban Pykes on my team, because they're not fun to play with or against.

Leona Leona: Honestly, Leona is probably the most balanced one on here. Don't get me wrong, she is very strong, but I think only a slight nerf is probably needed for Leo. I would say probably lower the damage on her W a little, or increase the cd on her Q. The fact that her Q is on a 5 second cd at the start of the game is a little too strong in my opinion.

The change for her was unnecessary, BUT she works well to counter the other hook champions on this list. Additionally, picking up Alistar when you normally play enchanters is a great idea for countering -ANY- of the members of hook city.

Naon9/26/2019, 9:23:17 AM1 votes

The biggest offender is they are hooking people while abusing aftershock and tanking everything after pulling someone in. It's such a stupid mastery that offers them dmg on top of their already tanky base stats with a pull. Add that to someone like pyke who just hooks and leaps on you to proc his aftershock + stun, and then whoop whoops away to heal up any dmg he might have possibly taken ( and ignite? forget it, his gray health simply just heals a little slower )

Naut does crazy dmg early just by walking around you after hooking you. He can easily 1v1 any adc he pulls into himself.

Blitz? Sure you might be able to hide or dodge, but his stupid hitbox is so misleading along with thresh it's still mindblowing how many videos have been uploaded to show how busted these champs hitboxes are and nothing has still been done about it. They also benefit greatly from abusing aftershock.

Leona? She has a lot of early game dmg and her being able to clear wards almost instantly if they are set in botlane near her is pretty crazy. She can easily deny vision by resetting her auto when a ward is placed close. She has 3 hard ccs in her kit ( her ult if she smacks you right in the middle ) and she is also very tanky early with aftershock. She can also CC through waves of minions.

All these champs should be poked out by enchanters but not many supports are able to get close enough without worry about getting all ined. If an enchanter or squish missteps at all, they are not walking away they are dying. If these tank supports misstep, they have time to respond or their ADC does. Plus the tanks and any other melee range support is given sustain in lane anyways thanks to relic shield still giving a good amount of healing. Enchanters have been nerfed constantly and any utility items they are given have been nerfed numerous times as well. Enchanters are blamed for abusing things like ardent, but that wasn't the fault of the enchanters. It was strictly how stupid champs are now that can compensate on top of the healing an enchanter does. ( most champs now have some sort of blink or reset in their kits that allow them time to reposition if caught out )

Yet there are cheap items an adc or tank can rush to reduce healing in lane from an enchater / adc and not have it hinder them. Early pen items? Dirk. but hardly any adc will build that as a first go to or at all. Mpen? Forget it, at best we get sorc boots early. There isn't much we can do to counter the tanks besides hope that the tanks themselves misplay. That's not really a counter than is it.

When you look over the Resolve tree you will find the tree even awards you if youre poked a little. You have things like Second wind which lets you heal after taking a little dmg or even the abiltiy to reduce followup dmg for the next 3 attacks. I have purposely eaten hits on champs that have passive shields just to lose the shield but to proc the healing of second wind so I get more hp back in return. Then walk away to reset the shield. That's just stupid lol.

NaughtyWord9/27/2019, 8:04:14 AM1 votes

I don't even think Pyke is all that great. He's very scripted which means its easy to deal with his wambam thank you ma'am combo.

Daddy Ants10/6/2019, 12:04:30 PM1 votes

Biggest issue I have with Hook Supports is as follows.

No matter how well you play in lane, no matter how well you control the wave and make it hard for them to do anything, no matter how many hooks they miss in lane.

They land 1 in the late game and the game's decided.

Xintium9/27/2019, 10:01:30 AM1 votes

First of all, very nice thread, DivineMantra. I feel a bit bad for you, since some uneducated kids still don't know how to engage in a civil discussion, expressing their opinion (pro or contra), without recurring to laugh, ad-hominem attacks and vulgarity.

I am a support main who played almost every single champion in the game as support (not in ranked, unless it was a niche pick). I played Brand and Lux support well-before they were even remotely considered supports. I started the game with Sona/Janna/Lulu, but I played many games with Braum, Annie (when Annie support was a pro-pick), Karma and Zyra, alongside Leona and Nautilus. But my favorite support will always be Morgana. Finally, while not being even remotely good at this game, I avidly watched pro-play (until now, S9 was really bad to watch, but still watched a good part of it). These are my thoughts:

Leona: She is balanced and I don't think she fits into this discussion.

Thresh: The ever-green, permanently in-meta, support. The only reason this champion doesn't have stellar winrate is that Thresh is very hard to master and mechanics-intense (and Elo matters much less than one may think). I have seen a Diamond dedicated Thresh main who single-handlely "smurfed" in Diamond and won botlane super-hard. The same guy wasn't so stellar in the following game. Thresh is insanely difficult to play at a very high level. Sometimes even pro-players screw-up with him! Being "average" with Thresh is just common and an average Thresh is actually a "bad" Thresh, compared to what the champion can do when piloted correctly. Consistently S+ Thresh are basically Challengers and pro-players.

Having said that, WR is immaterial when judging Thresh, because Thresh has very high popularity: only a fraction of that are dedicated Thresh mains. I highly doubt Thresh will ever be significantly nerfed by Riot and he will stay in the meta for as long as the game survives. In short, Thresh is the perfect example of a champion who will be permanently skill-capped by the human piloting it.

Blitzcrank: Buffing Blitz Q range is a mistake. The hitbox is already a mess. Fix that first, then we can talk. Period.

Nautilus: Nautilus, as support, should only exist as a counter-pick to Blitz (and perhaps few other supports). At least, so the matchup was back in the day. There was a time when one Naut combo, Q+auto+E (+W to avoid retaliation damage) halved the ADC hp bar. I am not familiar with what happens now as a % (can someone tell me? including aftershock dmg). The hitbox is huge, the hook is relatively easy to land, the point-and-click R is just too good for a 2v2 skirmish in botlane, the E damage+slow was insane and I don't remember if they nerfed it (they probably did long ago). Aftershock is disgustingly OP on him. Still, it seems time to have a deep look at him. Definitely on the nerf side.

Pyke: I don't hate Pyke. He was the outcome of a long chain of things (mostly bad things) that Riot did. But, holy moly, isn't Pyke the most over-loaded support ever! (excluding the short-period where Camille support was a thing). Play this champion robotically perfect and you can win any game at any elo, including pro-play, having fun trashing literally everyone with your "skillz". No, this isn't true for all champions. Not even for 50% of the roster, thank you for asking.

Pyke WR is simply limited by its insanely high banrate and also Pyke has a high skill ceiling. Again, WR is a corrupted metric here. If someone will ever make an Artificial Intelligence (AI) for LoL, like they did Open AI for Dota2, please, make an AI for Pyke, just to show everyone how utterly, insanely broken and meta-warping this champion is, despite the nerfs he already took in the face and laughed off. Monster utility, monster multi-target CC, stealth, movement speed buff, unique gold-sharing mechanic, borderline-perfect execute, good (if somewhat telegraphed) hook, nice Q damage, insane mobility, grey-health, ... I mean, what more do you want? And I didn't list everything.

And this comes from a guy who enjoyed playing Pyke when he was released. With all the non-numeric power his kit has (basically the combined power-budget of 2-3 old champions, like Annie), either his numbers get gutted or Pyke is gonna rise up to where Thresh currently is: the ever-green, meta-indifferent, support holy mountain. He was certainly at the apex of the support food chain before the nerfs, now he probably shares his undisputed first place with others.

Despite all of that, I still don't hate Pyke. But he just has too much in his kit. Something must be removed to make room for balance. Here, "something" does not mean numbers, that approach is just Riot delusion that tweaking numbers can balance everything, mechanics must be touched, most likely removed or significantly changed. For now, just keep banning him.

{quoted}

I don't even think Pyke is all that great. He's very scripted which means its easy to deal with his wambam thank you ma'am combo.

Watch pro-play (before Pyke nerfs), check banrates in high elo, and you will see your argument crumble.