Riot You Need a New Balance Team

Keevalroy·1/28/2015, 7:14:22 PM·838 votes·141,450 views

What your balance team has been doing has gone beyond tolerable levels of bullshit. They're not even trying to hide the fact that they play favorites, then spit in our faces when we call them on it by nerfing other champions that didn't have a problem in the fist place. Do you think the Lee Sin nerf threads are funny or something? Do you honestly think an attack speed touch to Zed is a reasonable nerf? Did you not see how many people were opposed to the Sona and Ahri nerfs?

Or is it that you just don't give a damn? Seems like that's the most reasonable conclusion since you can't seem to understand what you're doing to the game. I watched that patch rundown and it made me sick hearing that you apparently want diversity in the game. Alright, so removing DFG and not compensating the champions affected by it is a brilliant idea right? Removing the item and slowly filling the holes left by it afterwards is great for retaining those off-builds.

The jungle is garbage, and you're making it worse. I don't understand why you insist that increasing the cost of the upgraded smite is a good thing. A lot of junglers are already struggling to get through the first clear, so why make it even harder? You just want Lee Sin to be stronger don't you? No, there's no tinfoil hat this time, we know you want to see Lee every game. Want to disagree? Then explain how he hasn't been nerfed yet - or do you need to nerf Sona again to compensate for his incoming 7.45 / 7.40 health regen nerf.

None of that matters in the LCS, your balance team's favorite thing to watch, does it? From watching so many LCS matches, they've grown to love certain champions from watching their flashy, fun, and exciting plays, such as Lee Sin's. That would explain why he's never going to be nerfed - you guys like him way too much and want to see him succeed. But wait, there's ANOTHER champion in contention for the Favorite Child title. You have acknowledged that Zed is a champion who might be an issue for mid laners, and have stated that you do in fact like watching his plays...so you nerf his attack speed and call it a day...what the fuck?

Was the reasoning behind killing Ahri's role as an assassin actually that she could fight Zed? Huh, if Zed get's charmed, he could die from that burst, so let's make it so that getting hit with charm is only a minor inconvenience at the hefty cost of mana - yes, she has to use resources to do damage, Zed doesn't. I just wanted to explain that last part since I'm convinced some of you don't actually play the game, otherwise the balance changes would make some amount of sense wouldn't they?

Changes that you keep shoving out have been discussed in great detail over many threads about similar topics, yet all of them seem to be ignored. What is the point of PBE if our feedback on balance is worthless? Why should we even try to talk to you if you're just going to brick-wall us and say (behind your computer screens because typing it would be bad for business) : "It's our game, deal with it. If you don't like it, you don't have to play." Again, want to disagree? Prove me wrong. Talk to us, let's come up with some compromises to some of these 'experimental' changes that make it to the live servers regardless of feedback. And what I mean by talk to us doesn't mean hiding on reddit since most of the posters can't actually prove they've played a single game of League in their life. On here, you can actually see their account.

If you can't do that, if you can't perform the simplest of solutions to break down the wall between Riot and community by talking to us, then you've failed as designers. Balance feedback is meant to be expressed and debated. It was for a little while, then you guys kinda disappeared after stating "Sorry, we'll do better at communicating." You hate being called liars, but I've seen that excuse, and that action enough times that it's lost meaning to me. YOU need to be the ones to talk as well. Don't make Kateykhaos walk through a minefield explaining that she isn't in charge of balance but she believes X is for Y reason. Don't make Rioters who's job isn't about the topic be the one to communicate. The thought is appreciated, but it's not solving anything.

Edit: Why are people still commenting on this? This was posted over 4 months ago. Everything but my criticisms are out of date.

Edit 2: Okay, it's over 6 months later, stop commenting. Yes the balance team is still untrustworthy and will probably always be a constant source of disappointment and anger to the community. We don't need to keep bringing it up here. Make another thread. And yes I still stand by my original point - you need to clear out your balance team and sub in people who_ aren't_ a bunch of lying hypocrites or condescending egomaniacs that actually give a shit about the players instead of how League looks for spectators.

Edit 3: Almost 10 months later, I'm still waiting for these lying egomaniacs to be replaced. They're continuing to feign interest in the community with these little PR driven Q&A posts before they go back into hiding, ignoring questions about their favoritism and lying where they don't want to admit their intentions, and dismissing concerns over their blatant hypocrisy. But what do I know, I'm just a "conspiracy theorist." Right?

599 Comments

Retillin1/28/2015, 9:11:50 PM191 votes

Every single line you wrote is combative and comes across as very rough to say the least. However you are 100% correct.

Riot Phreak tried (I guess you would call it try) to back up the idea that Riot is working on champion diversity (especially in the LCS). His main point was that the picks that are not being nerfed by Riot was that they were not top picks. Because the champions that pro players pick "just the most fun". So he said the only reason we see Lee Sin, Thresh, Zed is because the pro players enjoy playing them more than anyone else. Granted this is just a page or two after his reasoning for their nerfs on mid Janna last year.

"They played mid Janna because she was bullshit. They played mid Soraka because she was bullshit. Pros really like to pick champions that are un-counterable. Their opponents are, just like them, extremely skilled League of Legends players. If you can find a champion that CANNOT be outplayed, that's a really strong champion to play in top tier play."

This was words, and they he followed it up talking about those that are thought of as "favourite children" of Riot's are just more fun and that is why pros pick them.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/esports/aYUEYaY2-almost-everyone-wants-to-see-champion-diversity-in-lcs

But the main issue is, Riot DOESN'T want diversity if it means their favourite are not at the top of the pile for the most played. At this point I don't know how much posts like this matter. Riot has, for whatever reason, walked away from the forums. Unless they feel like being condescending and flip flopping to try and back up their ideas and plans.

If they just came out and said, "we are not going to nerf Lee Sin because we believe he leads to a higher viewership and a growth of the game" I would not be happy but at least, they would be honest.

edit: I would like to say I am glad there are Rioters that come and TRY to help players to understand such as KateyKhaos and others.

RiotGhostcrawler1/29/2015, 7:52:11 PM144 votes

Hey guys,

I'll throw out a few responses here.

On balance philosophy - we realize that our strategy for who we balance for isn't well articulated. Do we balance for LCS or for Silver players? Or both? We're trying to make sure we agree on what our actual goal is, because I think "We balance for everyone!" is a little too precious and unrealistic. We'll communicate our strategy when we've made sure we're on the same page. Balance philosophy is a topic that greatly interests me. I don't make the individual tuning changes personally (and you wouldn't want me to) so I can't provide as much context on specific patch notes, though I do help set the philosophy and direction for what kinds of changes we try to make.

Related, "win rate" gets used a lot as synonymous with balance, but that doesn't tell the whole story. We need to communicate better about what game balance means to us, because there's more to it than that. A lot of what you're discussing in this thread is sort of "pre-balancing." We're making a change (that we have wanted to make for some time!) by removing DFG, and we know that change would have big ramifications if we didn't adjust some champs to compensate. Those adjustments, while grounded in math, playtesting and player feedback, still often come down to educated guesses, because we don't have the data from thousands of live games yet. A more accurate but painfully slow way to balance is to make one change, see how the live game reacts, then make another change in response to that. We think this would feel worse overall.

On design accountability -- it totally exists. It's part of my job to make sure it exists. Now, it's not the kind of thing you're likely to see a lot. We're not going to publicly flog designers for making mistakes, though I can understand why that might be cathartic. On the other hand, designers (and anyone at Riot really) should be upfront and honest with you guys about when they think they've made a mistake.

On designers buffing champions that they like to play -- this would be a big accountability issue. As someone pointed out, while we are all gamers here, this is also a place of business with a product (LoL) and customers (you guys). It's royally unprofessional to try and tweak the game to benefit your own personal games. That's a serious breach of trust (Rioter and players) that would come with serious consequences. We may make changes you don't understand or don't agree with, but it's not because we're trying to boost our own ELO.

On Lee and Thresh -- they are champions we like, but more importantly, they also resonate with a lot of players. It's not a popularity contest, but on the other hand, we believe a lot of why people play them is because they are fun to play, not just because they win a lot. Both champs have a lot of cool abilities, and arguably they both have so many that a) neither has a lot of weaknesses, and b) they compliment almost any comp you try to build. We're trying to figure out ways to make them less awesome in every situation without stripping away what is fun about them. For example, last year or so we tried to tone down Lee's mobility and ward hopping, but it felt terrible, and largely due to player feedback (intelligent, meaningful feedback, not whining and pitchforks) we reverted it.

As always, we appreciate the feedback. The more targeted and actionable it is, the more useful it is for us. I can go tell the balance team "Boards say you suck" and they would kind of look at me and say "Okay, what changes in how we adjust champions should we make?" and I would say "You just suck." There's not really a lot of direction for improvement there.

Hugs, GC

Alpharite1/29/2015, 1:00:03 AM45 votes

While I agree that Riot's balance team has gone beyond the levels of "tolerable bullshit"; some of your arguments aren't sound.

Lee Sin isn't the only problem in S5 jungle, it's the fact that that only him and a select group of champs are viable in jungle (Lee, Jarvan, Vi, Rek'Sai, Fiddle). Every one of these builds stalker's blade due to every other smite having been nerfed or useless (poacher's).

Zed wouldn't be so oppressive in the first place if mages hadn't been gutted. Zed needed to be buffed in August due to the power of poke mages then. But no, they destroy grail then punish people for switching to Morello's. Of course assassins will dominate, every other class has been nerfed.

And, at the height of stagnant AP itemization, they remove DFG. Great fucking job guys. Let's help Zed some more.

WooBeeWoo1/28/2015, 11:38:27 PM39 votes

The problem is that Riot is enforcing the meta. They are creating champs INTO the player created meta and it makes it crazy unbalanced. Look at ADCs (marksmen) they arose out of AP champs with aa steroids. think ashe kog ez trist etc. Now most adcs get aa steroids AND AD scaling on the ablilties think how hard lucian was to balance (assuming hes there yet) thats because hes an ad cast and aa champ.... Players created the role from AP champs that worked in it. Riot is enforcing the role with champs designed for it making ashe ect basically useless. Making champs specific for a role in the meta makes balance even more difficult.

Rinky Dinky1/29/2015, 9:24:40 AM38 votes

I like how the upcoming Sona "Buffs" are actually mathematically another huge fucking nerf.

Great, I wont get all inned as easily at level one. Its not like you nerfed my mana regen and my hp per level to the point where they can just all in me at level 3 EASIER than before.

Its not like my skills are so shit that I HAVE to build AP SONA.

Its not like my heal is so bad that I get 200 hp at the most for 260 mana after 3 casts, IF my lane partner is at 1% hp ALL 3 CASTS.

Its not like my aura's are so small that If I actually want to use them for my Team I get one shotted.

Its not like I am the squishiest SUPP in the game or anything.

Its not like I HAVE to play Sona like a selfish prick If I want to do anything useful. Help my team with my Aura's? I WISH i could actually do that.

But nope, I gotta build glass cannon apc to do anything for my team. Because If I dont, then I am a shittier Nami in all ways.

Difference between Sona and Nami? "Kills Secured Per Match"

Dont even get me started on the Cassiopeia bullshit. Or Lee Sin.

Like Riot does alot of good things despite what people think, but they need to stop with the stupid shit too.

Miku Lv1011/29/2015, 4:13:20 AM31 votes

The game is, tbh, the least balanced I have ever seen it now. Only a few good junglers and only a few good mids remain. And there are more completely gutted champions than ever before with the removal of DFG and lack of compensation for some mages, when a lot of mages were already gutted. And Sona is nerfed too much and way too many other champions that have been bad for a long time are still bad.

The game is now just a battle of the balance team's favorite champions and the rest are mostly irrelevant.

Junkο1/29/2015, 3:07:13 PM26 votes

As a Zed main, i facepalmed so hard when i read the Zed part of the patch.

How will AS nerfs prevent him form having really good waveclear? Or safe laning phase? Or turret diving without much risk?

chumbler1/29/2015, 5:16:36 AM25 votes

It's not malice from Riot. They're not smart enough for that. It's just plain old incompetence and not giving a fuck.

Derpy Mike1/29/2015, 2:08:43 AM23 votes

What? What are you talking about? I love having to pick Thresh every game or risk putting myself at a disadvantage because the enemy team picked him and I didn't.

http://i.imgur.com/gJY0Fff.jpg

Akali is SO HOT1/29/2015, 4:45:15 AM22 votes

I'm not even salty about the Akali changes. What I am salty about is that once they made those changes on PBE avid Akali players like myself and many others gave them a shit ton of feedback and why the changes were stupid and didn't even address her problem but no Riot comments whatsoever. I and many others have made it clear that her passive is her problem and not any of her other abilities. They talked about how her damage was too reliable when in reality the changes did nothing to solve that problem which isn't even her problem in the first god damn place.

What they have effectively done to Akali through the changes: -Made her pre 6 weak as fuck with the Q changes -Nerfed W to hell -Deleted her E -Random nerf to ult that makes playing her a million times more annoying -Ignore her spellvamp problem.

They have done this for over 2 seasons. I have tried to explain it to them but it just won't work unfortunately. She'll get nerfed again in a few patches and this time they'll probably delete her Q because that is totally what her problem is.

I would be totally fine if they even said "Lol fuck you your ideas are stupid" just so I know they actually read what I have to fucking say. Fuck this balance team.

cFlame1/29/2015, 1:32:18 AM22 votes

Riot is gonna reverse the most recent Zed nerf too, just so you know. WHOOPS, TOO SLOW! "Our most recent change to Zed has left him too open to burst in the mid lane, so were going to give him back that attack speed plus 0.20%."

RiotGhostcrawler2/7/2015, 12:13:07 AM18 votes

This brings us back to the very core of our complaints. It's what YOU want, not US, not the community playing with and against the game pieces you're modifying. We've been very vocal, and the negativity you associate with us stems from the way that no matter how much noise we make about changes not being optimal for the game's health, said changes go through anyway.

We rarely see that level of consensus in the community... for anything. Usually there is a strong contingent that feels one way and can't understand why we don't agree with them, and another contingent that feels exactly the opposite and can't understand why we don't get their point of view. This job would be easy if you could just ask players what to do and be confident with that direction.

Please don't misinterpret that as "players never agree so they are useless as a resource." Far from it. But the conversation is a nuanced one, not just "Do what we say and your game will be awesome."

RiotGhostcrawler2/7/2015, 12:10:04 AM18 votes

Ghostcrawler may I ask you a question?

Do you (guys at Riot) understand the reason there is a lot of dislike for Lee Sin? (as an example)

The thing that annoys me about him is how he is in sooo many games, how it feels like he complements any team comp you might make, and how hard it is to capitalize on his weaknesses. What are your concerns?

Tough Guy1/29/2015, 6:17:04 AM16 votes

Just waiting for Riot to remove Hour Glass, because as far as the team is concerned, "Zed needs to land his ult!"

XVI Jake IVX1/29/2015, 3:57:21 AM16 votes

Poor poor veigar. Still nothing out for him yet.

MajorPain91/29/2015, 6:37:32 AM15 votes

I just want to know why they are so adamant about discussing this. The only thing I can think of is that they don't have the answers and people like OP are just hitting the nail on the head. Where the fuck are they with these types of threads now becoming a daily occurence. Not a single fucking answer day in and out so more threads like these keep popping up. At least use the reddit style if your going to force it on us.

@Ghostcrawler. Where the hell are you?

Akai Kaze1/29/2015, 5:30:56 AM4 votes

Lee Sin has been nerfed plenty of times since his release. Do some research. Just because you don't ward properly and most likely have tunnel vision in lane does not mean you can say a jungler is OP. Every champ with energy has poor regen.. very poor unless they are able to optimize there energy regen mechanics (Lee's passive, Zed hitting with his shadow, Shen w and passive).

So please for everyone's sake just stop bitching and try to carry yourself from whatever tier your in to the next one strickly with these "OP" champs.

Oh and by the way how come when a clearly strong and low counter play AP item gets removed you carry compensation? How about AD champs and bruisers get compensation for Atma's and Executioners calling removal?