Lee Sin can have his kit OR his damage. Not both.

rvn2svn·2/2/2015, 3:28:47 PM·108 votes·9,311 views

Why can a tanky Lee Sin with.....

Skirmishers Sabre - Warrior Randuins Omen SIght Stone

Do a 900+ damage combo rotation with 170 ad at lvl 11?

  • clear is fine. check (one of the few junglers that can survive right now)
  • early pressure and ganks are insane. check
  • build path with sight stone is SO frustrating to play against. check
  • 1v1 kill potential while counter jungling is very high. check

He has too much. And IMO has had it for far too long. There's no way to modify the jungle to hurt him specifically. Lowering the jungle difficulty to allow other junglers a "chance to be viable again" doesn't change the fact that hes still ON TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN in terms of jungle power.

I'm a high silver / low gold level player. Definitely nothing to get excited over. Maybe there's logic to his overall kit that is beyond my skill level to play against. Or there is something that I'm doing wrong while playing against a team with a Lee Sin.

Am I retarded in thinking that his kit OR his damage needs to get looked and and lowered? ( read that as NOT NERF BAT it hard, just toned down a little )

81 Comments

Tik1152/2/2015, 5:25:19 PM28 votes

The problem is the %missing health on his Q and his retarded base + scaling on his ult (200 - 600 + 200% Bonus AD) I'm all for him having a strong early game but the "He falls off late game" excuse seems pretty stale when he can deal over 1k damage with his ult with just one or two damage items late game

Jasiwel2/2/2015, 8:47:25 PM25 votes

They could nerf Lee's values and he'd still be worth picking. He has a solid kit that offers a lot for his team and makes plays happen. That's what a lot of us are frustrated about; why should a champion with a strong kit be paired with strong values that barely fall off, which in case his kit makes up for it.

He's an overloaded champion like Thresh, Janna, etc. There is at least no reason for him to have spell-vamp, let alone an execute.

mvargus2/2/2015, 3:56:28 PM19 votes

There is a rather vocal minority that complains about Lee Sin regularly. So far it seems that the Riot balance team is afraid to do too much to Lee Sin. I was not around for the last ruckus over it, but my understanding is that changes to him are very unpopular at the Challenger level and Riot does pay attention to them.

My experience with him as been very mixed. At my level 90% of the people playing him appear to have no clue how to use him and he dies quite a bit. The ones who do know are extremely hard to beat and can carry teams if all goes well.

My only issue would be that if he's a speedy jungler he should not be able to dominate the slower junglers easily. It's unfair to have him quickly clear a jungle and then go and beat on the other teams jungler. It makes the choice of jungler become a game of "who gets first pick if Lee Sin isn't banned." Not exactly enthralling to the players involved. (unless they win the roll of the dice.)

Cale0172/2/2015, 10:59:52 PM12 votes

This is pretty much what I've been trying to say about Lee Sin for a long time now. It's not that he's specifically overpowered, it's that his kit is just too heavily loaded. He can build a Hydra and then two tank items and his scalings are so incredibly high that he can keep up with a fighter who's having to forgo tank and build damage just to keep up with him. His kit just has too damned much for what it gives:

  • high scaling single target ranged poke
  • high scaling AoE magic damage
  • hard CC on his ult
  • soft CC on his AoE magic damage
  • a shield
  • spellvamp/lifesteal
  • attack speed steroid
  • an execute
  • two potential gap closers

Pretty much all of which are on such a short cooldown that missing the odd Q doesn't really hold you back very much.

I get that he can make those flashy LCS plays, but in all honesty he'd be able to do that in the hands of the pros if his damage was reigned in a bit all the same. He is a very high skillcap champion, because the better the player the more use they're getting out of his kit. But that doesn't change that at a basic level he isn't very difficult to do well with, even if you're far from Insec level plays. Riot recently nerfed Sona for being oppressive early, meanwhile Lee Sins are picking up doubles at the bottom lane at level 3 and owning the enemy's jungle like poor Rammus hasn't paid his rent.

If you pull back the utility and wild variety in his kit, his damage becomes much easier to handle. But with out that he isn't Lee Sin, so instead pull back on his damage. Let him keep the potential to make those plays, let him keep his mobility, because that's all he needs to dominate early and mid game which is where he shines.

Last year Riot did the right thing. They kept the majority of his kit intact while reducing his damage, in fact realizing that they had gone maybe a bit too far when they removed his wardhopping and gave it back to him. At that point it was actually fun to play against him, I felt like if that Q came over a wall at me I had a chance. If he was ahead I knew it was because he was a good player, not because he could outdamage anyone he went in on. The only people who were complaining about him at that point were the Lee Sin mains who were only butthurt because they weren't getting fed kill after kill for having to land an easy skillshot. Then Riot gave in and put a bunch of damage back into his kit, and since then for every "nerf" he's gotten he's gotten a compensation buff somewhere else.

Trading where he has power in his kit doesn't change that he has too much overall.

rvn2svn2/3/2015, 3:56:24 AM8 votes

Thresh has very low damage BUT has an amazing kit.

Thresh does relatively low damage or NONE (Lantern) at all while he makes plays.

Lee Sin has very good damage AND he has an amazing kit.

Lee Sin does Assassin damage WHILE he makes plays.

This is my logic ( hopefully not too flawed ).

Ulquiorra9952/3/2015, 12:19:25 PM8 votes

Counting raw numerical values of their damaging abilities, Lee has more base damage and scaling than AD assassins, like Talon and Zed.

Talon's full ability combo, counting 15% damage amplification: 1035 + 460% AD.

Zed's full ability combo, considering 50% amplification, W placed behind his target and 2 full damage shrunken hits: 798 + 445% AD + 15% HP.

Lee's QER combo: 1140 + 480% AD + 8% missing HP. Consider while Zed and Talon are using 4 of their abilities (+passive for Zed) to do damage, Lee uses only 3 with his W left for reposition or escaping.

So, with all utility he has he also has a damage potential higher that some of assassins. Note that I said 'potential'. Meaning he will out damage them early-mid with 1-2 damage items and can out damage them late if he builds accordingly.

But still, let that sink in. Someone with 2 mobility tools, loads of utility and CC has damage potential rivaling assassins, class whose point is dealing high, quick damage to a single target, and Riot still thinks its healthy for the game. #LC$BIGPLAYS

Orders2/2/2015, 6:34:00 PM6 votes

Change the scaling on his ult and secondary Q. That way, if he wants to execute someone he has to build a bit of damage.

Mãge2/2/2015, 7:18:43 PM4 votes

I don't think Lee Sin is that powerful, frankly, and I'm a Platinum player. The only ability in his kit that can't be avoided is his ultimate, and it comes with a decent cooldown. If you're having trouble with Lee Sin, try spells like Flash and Barrier. Flash will help you dodge his E, and then you can just juke his Q with unpredictable movement. Barrier helps against some of the burst damage that he can dish out. If you're a Jungler, you can try Skirmisher's Sabre, which will decrease the amount of damage that he deals to you in a duel while you call for help from your laners or make a clean escape.

Subject 52/3/2015, 3:27:19 AM4 votes

Evelynn

A recent patch COUGH stated that a certain champion should not have damage if damage is not built. Yes, i do believe this was true i can't think of the name . . .

Tsunday2/2/2015, 3:52:34 PM3 votes

It's because he has an ability that does %HP missing. If when he comes up to combo you you're not full HP or if you have no armor/low total HP when he starts his combo he'll do more damage. The skrimishers extra damage helps dwindle you down for his Resonating Strike as well.

Am I retarded in thinking that his kit OR his damage needs to get looked and and lowered? ( read that as NOT NERF BAT it hard, just toned down a little )

No a lot of people think that, although I personally don't agree. I have not and probably never will play Lee Sin (I don't really jungle) but I've never really minded playing against him. Maybe part of that is because I'm a support main and when Lee Sin jumps to me it's normally a death wish (aka he's often greeted by a Leo stun, Thresh hook, or a Janna tornado) but even when I'm not playing support I see so much Lee Sin that he doesn't even faze me anymore.

Sooko2/2/2015, 8:05:54 PM3 votes

Look, I understand the Lee Sin hate, how everyone gets nerfed every now and then but he (and maybe Zed) usually dodge the nerf bat with a little slap on the wrist at best. But... I don't feel that he is actually that broken. Yes he does a lot of things well, but I don't find him so frustrating to always want to rage quit whenever I see him. It might have been because he is in almost all games and I got used to him, but I just hardly care anymore about Lee's kit. I am by no means defending him or saying he is balanced compared to other champions, but I am saying people overrate him a little.

There is still to come the day I would pick gutting Lee Sin instead of... I don't know, maybe Trynda or Fiora. He lacks weaknesses while many other champions have too many, but the fashion nowadays is to make champions with less weaknesses than older ones. I don't defend this, but I just don't have a problem against him anymore. Yeah, I hate almost all kinds of mobility, and his is no different, but when I see him I just... meh, shrug my shoulders. He might be overwhelming in some situations, but I don't feel like he is that far from the regular viable champion, being what truly irks me the fact that many other champions are allowed to just die while he never does so and remains among the top of the list for a long time.

I don't know. I think boards still make him sound like he is a Poppy back when she was picked in LCS, but he actually, despite being very viable compared to nearly all the junglers that are hurt from the season 5 changes, isn't that OP.

Anti-unoriginal response security system: "I agree, buff Lee Sin." Done, now you can't say it just because I said Lee isn't that OP.

Chromatic Eagle2/3/2015, 1:22:19 PM3 votes

Even Riot agrees that mobility is Lee's identity, though it could be more niche. He doesn't need high MS if he has ward hopping. What needs to be changed is his damage and tanking.

Guy Fox Teemo2/3/2015, 11:27:56 PM3 votes

You do realize doing 900+ damage is his full combo plus the fact that you know people have at least 30 armor which I THINK is about -30%. But thats at LVL 1. And as Phreak stated (He was Diamond 1 i believe last season) Said that Lee Sin jsut FEELS strong if for one almost NEVER have a problem with lee sin. He's just one of those annoying champs that gets on your nerves but doesn't really ACTUALLY carry the game or kick everyones ass. He's just kinda there being frustrating but not actually winning when the ENTIRE point of the game is to WIN. If he's not winning games (45% win rate) then obviously he's not a problem. Don't give me that crap that win rates dont matter because they are the DEFINITION of what matters. Why would you complain about a champion that is CONSISTENTLY not winning games? There are many other factors that go into winning games but he's played about 1.2 MILLION times, each month, across ALL regions. Thats a absurd amount of games that are being played and obviously enough to gather Data that he's NOT the reason your losing games nor is he OP. Because the Definition of a OP champion is someone you can't handle and will just snowball and make your team lose. THat isn't the case with lee sin and hasn't been for awhile as he's had a low win rate for quite awhile. Stop with the complaining on Lee Sin. He's just a slightly frustrating champ to play against but again the point of the game is to WIN. He's not winning very often so he's not a problem.

Goat Of War10/5/2016, 1:30:49 AM3 votes

The most frustrating thing with Lee is that hes pretty much the STRONGEST 1v1 champion in lvl2-3 with only very few champs having a chance to fight back (Kha-zix, Rengar with full fury,Olaf) and those are big ''if's'' cause he always invades with red buff and you dont always have red when you fight. So when Lee picks red and invades you right away, even if you see him you either give up the camp if you manage to run away or you are DEAD. If you get help by a laner maybe you can stop him but usually by the time the laner reacts its too late. And the fun fact is that he only has to hit a ''Q'' CAUSE AFTER THAT YOU ARE DONE. It gives him something like 200 dmg with a bit AD (for both casts) plus 8% OF YOU MISSING HP. Who the f*ck does that much DMG in one spell (thats easy to hit to be honest) and is allowed to have all this mobility at the same time? Not to mention the energy factor which makes him not care about blue buffs. On top of that he can build little AD and still have huge dmg +utility +tankyness. Having been more successfull in ganks and invading the enemy jungler later in the game is something acceptable and justified...but lv2 invasion which is guaranteed and you cant do anything about it as a jungler in person is just unfair. When in a losing lane you can still stay under turret and farm, and if you are not doing very poorly you can be usefull. In jungle you need to be able to have more impact than the opponent (and be ahead of the enemy jungler so you can make plays without him being able to directly countergank you) and if someone can get such an ''unfair'' lead so early then where is the so called ''balance''? Riot should nerf his dmg so that instead of him being a head hunter (like he is used right now by Challengers and Bronzies alike) he will be be a PLAY-MAKER. Everyone can hit a Q-E-R-Q combo, but how many can perform an INSEC???

Silents4292/2/2015, 7:08:40 PM2 votes

No really?

Brotha2/3/2015, 11:39:46 PM2 votes

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=jungle-matchup&range=daily&map=sr&queue=normal Only champion Lee has a chance of winning against statistically is Volibear. He is outclassed by almost every jungler in a meta that relies on mid/late game. 45% win rate for months. He is essentially Nidalee, you don't chase him and you don't try to 1v1 duel him unless its mid/late game (he IS a duelist). No Rioter in their right mind would nerf a popularly played champion that has had an Urgot tier win ratio for months.

KidKaiser2/3/2015, 1:14:35 AM2 votes

make E deal physical damage. and take off his %hp execute on his Q.

still viable across the game. easier to deal with. he can't pewpewpew then QRQ for a billion damage.

dafuw am i saying. he still can. but he's gonna have to commit to a longer fight. and without his %hp execute, he's gonna have to time it right. or just back off.

PatMcGroyn2/2/2015, 10:49:22 PM2 votes

Lee's damage falls off sharply in the late game if you don't build damage on him. His Q W R are all Bonus AD ratios, so they won't scale if you don't build more than just a Warrior enchant on him.

Retillin2/2/2015, 10:32:51 PM2 votes

I think you are wrong, as Riot has shown he CAN have both.