make armor reduce crit

Guineasaurus Rex·Dec 25, 2014·8 votes·1,444 views

Crit has always been around and while at times it can get out of hand, but personally I enjoy the random dynamic because it's usually something that you need to consider when deciding your build. The problem I have with crit in league is that crit can be easily stacked to 35%+ without much consideration to your overall build because so many AD items include crit and it is a STRONG stat without anything to counter or reduce it.

What if armor also gave a AD resilience percent too, like in WoW. It would be it's own stat so it's unaffected by armor pen. The more armor you have the less likely you are to be hit with crit and the less dmg the crit would do. Say for every 100 armor someone has, crit dmg is reduced by 30% while crit chance is reduced by 10%. This gives more value to tanky items and other AD items without crit while decreasing the value of crit items.

Also if AD items have crit, I don't see why AP items can't give spells a chance to crit even if only for 25-50% additional dmg, with magic resist items adding magic resilience that would decrease spell dmg and spell crit chance.

This change wouldn't just be a buff to armor/mr items but to tanks too who are dependent on those items. I also think it would make AD's think twice about adding armor or mr into their builds depending who they're against and what their opponent is building

20 Comments

WizzleboomDec 25, 20145 votes

Tenacity should lower critical damage done to you. Winning

FantasySniperDec 25, 20145 votes

RNG has been a problem since forever, but I don't think making any more anti-crit items is the solution.

item 3047 item 3082 item 3075 , then you got Reinforced Armor.

I would much rather fix the real problem rather than make an even bigger problem by focusing on the wrong thing.

Guineasaurus RexDec 25, 20141 votes

what would the right thing to focus on be then, if not reducing crit chance and dmg through armor?

FantasySniperDec 26, 20141 votes

Fixing crit so it's not RNG and super-oppressive in terms of damage without a substantial investment.

Lord DusteonDec 25, 20144 votes

Hey uh...armor already reduces critical damage.

100 AD + crit vs 0 armor = 200 damage (250 with IE) 100 AD + crit vs 100 armor = 100 damage (125 with IE) 100 AD + crit vs 200 armor = 50 damage (62.5 with IE)

Otherwise, this really messed with everyone who ever used crits. A marksman can expect to crit 55% of the time if they have 55% crit chance; suddenly having 35% crit chance when hitting one target is a rather large and unexpected loss in dps (besides the normal dps loss because you're hitting a tank). Otherwise, reducing crit chance and damage (in addition to the regular loss of damage from armor) is an incredibly large dps spike.

(this is over 5 seconds) 150 AD + 55% crit chance + 1 AS = 1575 damage (1781.25 damage with IE) 150 AD + 55% crit + 1 AS vs 100 armor, 30% crit reduction, 10% crit chance reduction = 661.875 damage (746.25 damage with IE) 150 AD + 55% crit + 1 AS vs 100 armor = 787.5 damage (890.625 with IE).

While that doesn't seem like a lot (only ~120 damage reduction with your change), remember, this is with ONE armor item, and it greatly reduces any autoattacks power (adcs/melee adcs work via the multiplicative scaling of AD, AS, crit chance, and crit damage; you cripple 2 of these, while using the armor to protect to begin with, while (assuming frozen heart, or randuins; both common items) hitting their AS to. This change would literally remove any relevance AD autoattacks have in the game and make critical strikes entirely useless).

Guineasaurus RexDec 27, 20141 votes

You're right that is a big drop but i used those numbers just to make a point and the real values could easily be abate the drop in dps.

Yes armor does reduce dmg but with arpen it's easy to make large amount of armor seem like nothing which is where i feel your numbers are off because what adc doesn't get at least some arpen and that is also why this stat should be unaffected by arpen

*edit - also one of the perks of this change is to make armor items more valuable and worthwhile while arpen is so easy to come by.

Lord DusteonDec 27, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Guineasaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KHRhmdPa,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2014-12-27T20:24:31.774+0000)

You're right that is a big drop but i used those numbers just to make a point and the real values could easily be abate the drop in dps.

Yes armor does reduce dmg but with arpen it's easy to make large amount of armor seem like nothing which is where i feel your numbers are off because what adc doesn't get at least some arpen and that is also why this stat should be unaffected by arpen

...

You uh, kind of missed the point. First, if the value is low it's hidden power (even more so then it already is); you take ~20 less damage from autoattacks, which is unnoticeable late game and unappreciated. If it's high enough to BE noticeable, it's OP because of how strong destroying the scalings is (you'd turn the 5x5x5x5 that is AD scaling into ~5x5x3x3, which loses 400. This is basically what your change would do to adc damage).

Otherwise, the MAX armor pen you could get through items is 25% reduction, 35% penetration, and 50 flat penetration. This is with a last whisper, ghostblade, black cleaver, warrior's jungle enchant, and another brutalizer, which is FIVE items entirely to try and break through armor. At that point, their damage is extremely low.

Assuming realistic values (last whisper + maybe a ghostblade), you'd get 35% penetration + 20 flat. At 100 armor you'd only have an effective 45, which is still 45% more effective health (and this is assuming your base armor is part of this; nobody except thresh would get below 0 armor through ghostblade). While last Whisper is highly effective, you'd need 3 100 armor items for it's armor pen to cancel out one. Either way, you'd still have over 200 armor and only take 1/3rd normal physical damage.

Also, making a stat unaffected by armor pen that only affects crits is bad, in so many ways. First, you make the only counter to it either A) not building critical strike, at all, or B) build completely ludicrous amounts of critical strike just so you can have your dps. Second, the entire point of armor penetration IS TO PENETRATE ARMOR. Not stop at armor, not randomly stop working verse armor. Third, due to how scaling adcs work, 100 armor halves their damage to you. Halfing their crit chance and damage more than halves their damage again and then some; making the person who builds full glass cannon for damage suddenly do no damage is not a very good design.

Guineasaurus RexDec 27, 20141 votes

I see what you're saying but I still don't agree that it is that bad because crits will still do additional dmg and crit as a stat is easy to obtain. I also don't agree that if it causes a noticeable change then the item is OP. All items cause a noticeable change. Crit gives a noticeable change in dmg so this would bring a noticeable change in decreasing dmg from that stat alone. Really all it does it add value to armor items which may encourage people to buy them more and the amount that it affects crit could easily be balanced.

Though you obviously don't feel the same way, so what is your solution? Tanks feel they die to easily because of crit and arpen and adc's still want to be strong but you think reducing crit chance/dmg through itemization would hurt them too much.

Lord DusteonDec 27, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Guineasaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KHRhmdPa,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-27T20:52:59.207+0000)

I see what you're saying but I still don't agree that it is that bad because crits will still do additional dmg and crit as a stat is easy to obtain. I also don't agree that if it causes a noticeable change then the item is OP. All items cause a noticeable change. Crit gives a noticeable change in dmg so this would bring a noticeable change in decreasing dmg from that stat alone. Really all it does it add value to armor items which may encourage people to buy them more and the amount that it affects crit could easily be balanced.

Though you obviously don't feel the same way, so what is your solution? Tanks feel they die to easily because of crit and arpen and adc's still want to be strong but you think reducing crit chance/dmg through itemization would hurt them too much.

For the first part no, crit is not easy to obtain unless your name is Yasuo. Most critical strike items are really meh by themself, and require more modifiers to be useful. If you'll notice, ghostblade + triforce are bought for the active and passives respectively, statikk shiv and phantom dancer are both meh by themselves and are only bought to increase your multipliers (AS + Crit), and IE is probably the least useless by itself, though it's still only really great once you have another crit item.

No, they don't. If I buy Athene's, you notice I have more mana and use spells more. What you don't notice is that you suddenly do a bit less magic damage to me; the magic resist is there, but not really noticeable. Crit's give you a noticeable damage spike when it happens (2x damage, flashy animation + icon) while generally just being a dps modifier; getting a thornmail will be noticeable because you're taking half damage and reflecting damage back. Reducing enemy critical strike damage or chance is NOT highly noticeable unless it is in huge amounts. Yes, you might realize in a longer duel with an adc that your surviving longer, but you'd contribute that more to the armor than a background dps cut that none of you can see.

Let's say you make people lose 10% crit chance and 20% crit damage. The adc isn't going to notice this; they're going to think your armor is just too strong for them and they also got unlucky with crits. You're not going to notice this; you can't tell whether your armor is blocking damage or they just have really bad luck with crits. Unless it's in high enough values to be extremely noticeable, you just secretly cut their dps by a huge amount and neither side really notices.

Armor items are already valued; making them a go-to item for everyone would just make any critical strike focused champion useless.

If I had to come up with a solution (I don't, and I don't believe this is a problem. Your perception as a tank could be "adcs OP" even though their jungler and mid did more to you.) it'd be to lower the AD on last whisper a bit more. It suddenly is still useful (35% armor penetration is good), but doesn't become as useful until some of the other team builds armor.

Creamy SeamanDec 25, 20142 votes

armor should have a % chance to block crit

Guineasaurus RexDec 25, 20141 votes

Block additional crit dmg or the entire attack? If it were to block the entire attack that would be similar to dodge which they already removed from the game but blocking just the additional dmg is a good idea. Though it seems people want the randomness removed from the game and this would just add another random element to the game

Creamy SeamanDec 25, 20141 votes

just counter the randomness with more randomness. Have an item called the infinity blocker. Blocks 75% of damage from critical strikes. Costs less than the infinity blocker.

Done25Dec 25, 20142 votes

They need to make an anti critical item. We have anti armor, anti MR, and a spell blocker. So why not an item like thornmail that lowers the damage you take from a critical strike by 30%?

Guineasaurus RexDec 25, 20142 votes

i think the problem with that would be, the anti crit item would become a necessary item which i don't think is what they want. I think adding anti crit to armor would allow for more item diversity while still giving the anti crit benefit

Done25Dec 25, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=Guineasaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KHRhmdPa,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-25T21:30:20.464+0000)

i think the problem with that would be, the anti crit item would become a necessary item which i don't think is what they want. I think adding anti crit to armor would allow for more item diversity while still giving the anti crit benefit

It's only "necessary" because of how obscenely hard marskmen can carry a game. They NEED to be toned down somehow. Perhaps with this item in the game teams might be more inclined to give some gold to the Malzahar in middle. Or the bruiser top/jungle.

ErijianDec 27, 20142 votes

Well, there's %Critical Chance Damage reduction which is currently a mastery. It could perhaps be implemented into the Tenacity stat, where Mercury Treads/Zephyr would allow you to take 35% less damage from Critical Hits (Before flat damage is added) or added as a new stat added to certain items.

The idea would be to not change the base damage whatsoever and only modify the Critical Damage so it's not too hard of a nerf. So instead of having what would've been a 600 damage Crit (Infinity Edge is purchased) gimped into 390 total damage it would instead be (360-126)+240=474, where 240 is the original base damage and 360, the damage added from the Critical Strike, loses 35% of its power and then is added to the base damage, just so there's no potential chance of an actual weaker hit in general just because they bought an item, just weaker Critical Hits.

math stuff Damage with Critical Hit modifier added, which is 250%- 600 Damage if Critical Strike Reduction took 35% total off of the hit itself- 600x.35=210; 600-210=390 total damage. Damage if it only took 35% of the bonus damage away- 600/2.5=240; 600-240=360; 360x.35=126; (360-126)=232; 232+240=474

While the former would be a total 35% damage reduction if you happened to Critically Strike, the latter is only a 21% Reduction which is much healthier in regards to the DPS of champions who rely on Critical Strike.

Guineasaurus RexDec 28, 20141 votes

I like the idea of it being it's own stat, independent of tenacity. Maybe something that could be added to pure tank items, as in items with armor but no ad/ap. If it's bundled with tenacity then tenacity items become a must buy, even though they pretty much are for a tank. Adding the stat to the big tank items will make them a little buffer

Ryuku CruxisDec 25, 20141 votes

Numbers seem high, 10% crit chance reduction on autos that hit you for every 100 armor seems like it'd suffice without the damage reduction, most dedicated tanks would be reducing crit chance by about 30% then, which seems good considering most crit heavy builds get around 55-70%

Guineasaurus RexDec 27, 20141 votes

yeah i just kind of made up numbers to make the point and toning it down from what i wrote would probably be necessary.