Lessons Unlearned: Why Runeglaive Misses the Mark

so chad··18 votes·3,399 views

Runeglaive was created as a tool to allow AP champs to clear the jungle who could not previously. This is directly cited by Riot as the reason it replaced Magus – Magus simply gave a little extra power to AP champs who could already clear the jungle without it.

By looking at the design of Runeglaive we can see Riot’s strategy: add AoE damage to kits that lack it to speed up jungle clears and relieve some of the burden of mana. However, you get none of these bonuses until far too late.

Lesson Unlearned: Essence Reaver The LoL fanbase was buzzing when Essence Reaver was announced. Finally AD Casters like Jayce, Graves, and Ezrael were going to dominate lane by spamming spells rather than right clicking. It didn’t take long for the community to label Essence Reaver a complete dud. Hiding mana sustain behind 3,800 gold makes it utterly useless – by the time you can complete the item you no longer need the mana sustain. Yet here we are with a mana sustain option gated behind, realistically, 3,000 gold (you’re buying boots, at least 5 pots, and probably a couple wards before you complete Runeglaive). Even worse, this item is intended for use by gold starved Junglers, meaning it takes even LONGER to achieve than if a laner needed 3,000 gold for it.

Lesson Unlearned: Support Itemization Riot knocked it out of the park with the changes to Support itemization (and also Quill Coat and Bami’s Cinder). Tanky supports can get beefy from level 1. Poke supports can trade a little harder from level 1. Sustain supports can keep up the healing a little longer from level 1. Yet AP junglers are expected to fail abysmally for typically 7 levels until they get enough gold to finally upgrade to Runeglaive. Perhaps AP champs don’t need access to an AoE proc and mana sustain at level 1 – after all Riot also specifically mentioned that they believe it is fair for mages to have a really rough time early on in the jungle. But they need support far earlier than 3,000 gold. Tanks got that support in the form of Bami’s Cinder, and previously Quill Coat.

Possible Solution Runeglaive needs a baby Runeglaive (Runepike?) as part of its build path rather than Sheen, which is honestly a very poor item to force AP champs into buying en route to Runeglaive. Frankly, I would prefer for Riot to finally come to the realization that the jungle is a LANE and not a ROLE and add a different starting item that each role can take into the jungle starting at level 1.

56 Comments

FlashnFuse5 votes

Baby essence reaver/runeglaive: 10cdr and a mana on hit(or on sheen-style proc) passive. No ad or ap. 640-820 gold, builds out of a fairy charm or something. I think that would smooth out the build path of both runeglaive and essence reaver.

Knight SoIaire 5 votes

question to rito tho

why is it a sheen proc look at ludens ... an item made for CASTERS not AUTOATACKERS so it activates when you cast skills

so chad2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KAyoupEW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-06-26T12:57:18.503+0000)

question to rito tho

why is it a sheen proc look at ludens ... an item made for CASTERS not AUTOATACKERS so it activates when you cast skills

This is a good point and one that can easily be addressed by making a baby Runeglaive that procs on spell damage as part of the buildpath instead of Sheen.

NorthernDruid3 votes

It's Spellblade is also subpar compared to the alternatives it's competing with (mainly IBG and Lichbane). Because it lacks the utility and tankiness of Iceborn, while not comparing with Lichbane's scaling and lacking it's movement speed.

It's this weird in-between item which doesn't suit a lot of champions who can use IBG or Lichbane effectively.

It's best use is freeing up a slot that you'd usually use on lichbane in return for lower scaling.

so chad1 votes

Well, keep in mind that the Runeglaive proc is AoE. Lichbane certainly bursts a priority target down faster, but Runeglaive can potentially do more total damage during teamfights so it isn't a strictly inferior item.

NorthernDruid3 votes

It's main strengths are it's low cost compared to Lichbane (it only costs 1400 if you don't factor in the jungle item), and high scaling compared ot Iceborn, as well as an extra slot you no longer use for your sheen upgrade.

The AoE is a nice extra and useful for clearing the jungle, but for champions with Lichbane as a core item I don't think the AoE will help much in their goal which is usually to focus one target. And for Iceborn users it doesn't offer the slow and higher base damage.

And as others have pointed out, the usefulness it has in helping jungle clears is limited as the AP champions who couldn't clear before won't be able to jungle efficiently enough before they get the jungle upgrade. And the AP champions who could jungle before simply don't need the AoE proc.

If I used to get IBG i'd rather get Warrior, Devourer or Cinderhulk than give up the slow.

If I used Lichbane (as in, if I prioritized Lichbane over Magus) i'd be happy giving up some of it's power for 1600 gold and a free slot if it gave at least 20 more AP.

40 AP is way too low.

so chad1 votes

Jungle items are tricky because if you make them too efficient then people just start buying them in lanes. For example, if Runeglaive had 80 AP I wouldn't be surprised to see some Ziggs running it.

I actually think Devourer has a good core idea that needs to be tweaked a bit. Imagine if, instead of scaling endlessly you just have to reach a certain amount of stacks to transform your jungle item into a stronger form, kinda like Manamune -> Muramana and Archangel's Staff -> Seraph's Embrace. This way you don't have an infinite stacking mechanic that needs to be balanced around and you also don't encourage players to disappear in the jungle for the entire game.

It would also make it nearly impossible for a laner to take the jungle item and get a benefit out of it.

NorthernDruid3 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/06/626-pbe-update.html

Did you read this ;O

If not, here you go.

so chad2 votes

haha! Wow, double procs sounds like it could be really strong. Aatrox will be blasting people for 60 magic damage from devourer, 16% of current HP from BOTRK, and 400 damage + 200% bonus AD from his W in a single auto attack. Thats like hitting people with an ultimate ability every 3 attacks.

Snake Town2 votes

I wish they would have kept magus along with runeglaive, magus benefited a fair amount of ap junglers more than runeglaive does.

FirstSergeantBim2 votes

It's been two days since the patch came out. You haven't even given it a chance. There are significant changes coming to AP Itemization as well, so you just don't have the information that you need in order to make the assessment that you're currently making. The jungle isn't a lane, it's a completely different environment and should not be treated as such.

As far as I'm concerned, Runeglaive hit the nail on the head. I love the concept because they took an existing item (Spellblade) and altered it to incorporate AoE spell effects. There is nothing else like it in the game and the very nature of the item is revolutionary which opens the door for so many more possibilities in building a champion (see AP Ezreal). It makes me look forward to future changes coming to items like Poacher's Knife or Devourer.

If Runeglaive isn't working as well as they would like, then all Riot needs to do is change a few numbers or incorporate the future changes to AP Itemization. Otherwise, the concept is solid and doesn't need tinkering.

so chad7 votes

{quoted}

It's been two days since the patch came out. You haven't even given it a chance. There are significant changes coming to AP Itemization as well, so you just don't have the information that you need in order to make the assessment that you're currently making. The jungle isn't a lane, it's a completely different environment and should not be treated as such.

As far as I'm concerned, Runeglaive hit the nail on the head. I love the concept because they took an existing item (Spellblade) and altered it to incorporate AoE spell effects. There is nothing else like it in the game and the very nature of the item is revolutionary which opens the door for so many more possibilities in building a champion (see AP Ezreal). It makes me look forward to future changes coming to items like Poacher's Knife or Devourer.

If Runeglaive isn't working as well as they would like, then all Riot needs to do is change a few numbers or incorporate the future changes to AP Itemization. Otherwise, the concept is solid and doesn't need tinkering.

You have missed the point entirely. I am not talking about Runeglaive being undertuned. Any item can get number buffs to be acceptably strong. If that is all Riot was after then they would have tacked another 20 AP on Magus and called it a day.

Their mission statement was to allow AP champions who formerly were not able to jungle to be able to jungle with Runeglaive. Go watch the patch preview if you want to hear it straight from their mouths. Runeglaive, however, is fundamentally flawed to this end and will never meet their goal.

FirstSergeantBim2 votes

Well that's just like your opinion, man. I disagree with you and the people in charge of itemization disagree with you. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have fun bitching about it though, because while you're doing that, I'm going to be enjoying the new jungle item and everything that it offers. GLHF bro!

Duke Anax2 votes

No matter which AP champion I try to jungle, even Soraka, I have no trouble once I get going.

Problem is and always has been the first clears. No matter what jungle items Riot comes up with, they will never solve the problem, when the problem is getting those items.

Erockandroll3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KAyoupEW,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-26T11:11:20.558+0000)

No matter which AP champion I try to jungle, even Soraka, I have no trouble once I get going.

Problem is and always has been the first clears. No matter what jungle items Riot comes up with, they will never solve the problem, when the problem is getting those items.

Sounds more like a Problem with the Junglers themselves rather than their items. Yet the whole purpose of the Current Jungle items is Transparency. Tanks would have had less clear speed without Cinderhulk, Yet they still have to wait until Cinderhulk to get the increased clear speed.

If riot tried to tackle AP Jungler problem without requiring them to invest in the items. They would replace (completely) the early dominant champions that used Warrior, (or SotEL from last season) And that would have been completely irresponsible.

Another Reason Why ER is peculiar. I recalled riot working on a component Item called Soul Sickle that would have fixed the Problem ER actually has. Yet it seemed that Riot Washed that item because it did Just that. Mana is an Early game problem, but a good way to gate champion is said early game.

Personally, I feel like we need to focus on their strengths rather than weaknesses. AP Really arn't going to have a good early game But instead of feverishly trying to cover up that weakness, Let's give them a stronger strength in the mid to late game. (like Cinderhulk did to Tank Junglers)

so chad4 votes

Tanks don't have to wait until Cinderhulk, they get Bami's Cinder for only 1,000 gold.

Your ideas are pretty on-the-nose about mages needing to be weaker early to account for when they do get powered up. However, Magus already nailed that situation. You were weak until you proved you could jungle for 6-7 levels and then you got a nice stat boost as a reward. The key point here is that you were being rewarded for being an AP champ who could already jungle without Magus.

Runeglaive is supposed to change that, but it doesn't. It is not supposed to be an item that makes you killer in duels versus champions, but it should help you get through those deadly early clears without being a single Resonating Strike from death at any moment.

qetzel1 votes

That sounds almost exactly like what people said before cinderhulk came out. That still made a big difference.

so chad5 votes

People were very excited and positive about Cinderhulk in my recollection

Duke Anax3 votes

It made tank junglers stronger compared to other junglers, but it didn't change much about which tanks are bad junglers and which are good.

so chad1 votes

You should try LeBlanc, haha! Worst jungler IMO

SH Azykan1 votes

Azir

At least leblanc can clear the camps...since she has decent base AD and you just start chains

Azir will die trying to take them early lol

so chad2 votes

You're right, when it comes to sucking at jungling Azir takes the taco.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

azir isn´t that bad...try anivia

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Some champions are going to be better than others during their first clears. Riot isn't interested in making everyone a viable pre-6 jungler. However, if the team can get their jungler to level 6 and access their first jungle item, they will be justly rewarded with a superb clear and scaling mid to late game.

Celeste Benal2 votes

Its also my opinion. Runeglaive is not an early game item. Early game is when junglers need the most help because Riot decided that the jungle needed to be harder this season.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Runeglaive is a bad item. But I don't think it accomplishes the stated goals.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

I'm not actually convinced the jungle is harder, at all. In fact, I think it's a lot easier for more champions to clear through because of the jungle buffs. They've nerfed the jungle monsters multiple times and increased experience gain from monsters as well. The jungle is a pretty easy clear for a lot of champions if you know what to do, I would know because I've taken many off-meta champions through custom clears using multiple different rune and mastery setups.

If every single champion could clear through the jungle without a hitch, games would be so outrageous early on. Ganks would be happening non-stop and there would be nothing gating the enemy team from completely steamrolling your team unless you were right on par with their movements. The game would turn into a "who picked the best early game jungler" and unless you were really good at that specific playstyle, you and your team would suffer. It's much better the way it is right now because there is a large selection of champions who can effectively jungle and Riot is continually improving the way junglers can scale into the mid and late game.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Infallible Riot, ayy.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Regardless of how you feel about them, I don't think you can tell me the game hasn't improved a tremendous amount since Seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4. The tank meta was the best thing that could've happened to this game and that all started with Cinderhulk. Runeglaive is another step in the right direction. You'll see in a couple weeks when the new AP Itemization comes out and all of a sudden we will be seeing off-meta picks become meta and weak picks become strong. If that doesn't happen sooner, it will happen later. They'll just tweak some numbers... and then it will happen.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Runeglaive solved exactly nothing about jungle mages. It's Essence Reaver all over again. After exactly 12 months it has lamentable buy rate of about 0.6% and nearly all of it is because of ONE champion. It's Zz'Rot Portal all over again. 0.5% buy rate after multiple nerfs just so the item wouldn't become worth a slot by mistake.

New AP itemization is a bunch of random power redistribution - That will mean nothing, because all that power was moved to Rabadon - and two unnecessary buffs what will end in a number of champion or said buffed items being nerfed into inviability. Again, solves nothing.

There's a number of Rioters I actually respect, but it's only a handful of them and I feel pity they have to work with the rest of Riot.

FirstSergeantBim1 votes

Boy, I bet you have a lot of fun with that attitude. If your view of the game is so drab, why don't you go and find a new one? I hear Heroes of the Storm is a lot of fun. They don't even have items in that game, but whatever will you complain about? Chances are you'll think of something, though.

You see the difference between you and I is this: attitude and perspective. I see the items available to us today compared to items in the past and think: "We're in a much better spot now, I can see the changes they've made to get us here and I can imagine the changes coming will take us even further to a better gameplay experience." I also know enough to know that I don't know everything and I'm not always right, but I can tell the game has gotten better since Seasons 1, 2, 3 and 4 so I trust Riot's direction in future changes.

Interesting you pick out Essence Reaver and Zz'Rot Portal. They're some of my favorite items, but just because I don't buy them every game doesn't mean they aren't a solid choice in the right situation. As far as I'm concerned, I have nothing but a bright future to look forward to. I'm happy, but you... well you can just stay salty, friend.

Vistha Kai1 votes

By it's design Essence Reaver was suppose to be a 50/50 pick between it and Bloodthirster. Solid choice? Essence Reaver? Not even close.

It's not about being salty. It's about seeing facts.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Remember in season 1-2 when there were no starting jungle items, and the only jungle item was only good for autoattackers? Remember when you had to buy 2 GP10 items beacuse 1) you needed the sustain from Philo Stone and 2) you would be extremely far behind your laners if you didnt get both P.Stone and H.o.G?

Jungle mages are in a much better spot then they were. It might not have solved anything from magus, but they arent as bad as the old days.

Vistha Kai1 votes

I don't disagree with preseason jungle changes, do I?

My point is that Riot... completely missed the point with the last jungle change(e.g. last patch).

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=teemos poop hole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KAyoupEW,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-06-26T07:42:44.911+0000)

You have missed the point entirely. I am not talking about Runeglaive being undertuned. Any item can get number buffs to be acceptably strong. If that is all Riot was after then they would have tacked another 20 AP on Magus and called it a day.

Their mission statement was to allow AP champions who formerly were not able to jungle to be able to jungle with Runeglaive. Go watch the patch preview if you want to hear it straight from their mouths. Runeglaive, however, is fundamentally flawed to this end and will never meet their goal.

They could easily go back to spirit stone. Oh I miss the days I could jungle with karthus....

Rinky Dinky2 votes

honestly, the real problem I think is how bad runeglaive's stats are.

LilxPaprika1 votes

http://i.imgur.com/xZAL3M6.jpgjpg small edit ... didn't do the math right in pic be more like 65 +3 per level.

it'll take whichever equation deals the most, would function much like warwick's q.

check out this post i made: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EAsdAMg8-runeglaive-and-jungle-items-solution

let me know what you think

The runeglaive icon might have a wand/staff thats a bit more ornate looking to help differentiate the two.

The 1600 gold portion would be sellable at discount or no penalty cost. Such that you can switch it whenever you deem it necessary. Just keep in mind you won't clear as well or have extra gold per camp however, so do so come a time whenyou would be able to clear fine with late game items and might find yourself with ample gold, especially since around the 40 min mark things are more centered around big objectives/team fights which is where the bulk of your gold will come from at this point.

so chad1 votes

{quoted}

http://i.imgur.com/xZAL3M6.jpgjpg small edit ... didn't do the math right in pic be more like 65 +3 per level.

it'll take whichever equation deals the most, would function much like warwick's q.

check out this post i made: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EAsdAMg8-runeglaive-and-jungle-items-solution

let me know what you think

The runeglaive icon might have a wand/staff thats a bit more ornate looking to help differentiate the two.

The 1600 gold portion would be sellable at discount or no penalty cost. Such that you can switch it whenever you deem it necessary. Just keep in mind you won't clear as well or have extra gold per camp however, so do so come a time whenyou would be able to clear fine with late game items and might find yourself with ample gold, especially since around the 40 min mark things are more centered around big objectives/team fights which is where the bulk of your gold will come from at this point.

If I'm reading that correctly your version no longer has an AoE spellblade proc?

LilxPaprika1 votes

[{quoted}](name=teemos poop hole,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KAyoupEW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-26T02:03:15.661+0000)

If I'm reading that correctly your version no longer has an AoE spellblade proc?

lol terribly sorry. haha i didn't even realise it had aoe proc. wow didn't read patch notes and the itemsets havent been updated. I tried it once in game and was only looking at the single target damage. haha that's why i thought it was underwhelming.

thanks for point that out btw, that's observant of you.

Well then, now i can tell this item is fine as it is. granted that's if you prefer aoe dmg over single target. imo single target sould be fine too. i don't think ap junglers have trouble clearing tbh.

the presentation changes i stand by though. an ap item makes more sense to be a wizard like device than a sword. same for cinderhulk looking like a defensive vest or shield... I also think disposable jungle items would be cool too.

also the path en route to building runeglaive would be a bit stronger as per my suggestion. So would still address part of what you mentioned in your post. Only because so many ap champs have abysmal base ad to work with making sheen, meh. might work if sheen did not scale off of base ad (a varied from champion to champion) but rather a fixed stat on any champion like 60 dmg + 3 per level ish.

Silents4291 votes

by the time you can complete the item you no longer need the mana sustain.

Er? I never got this, I tend to be able to finish my jungle item before 10 minutes, or around 12 minutes if it's a slow game. By this time I would still need the item to speed up my clearing and minimize the amount of mana I take up to do it because more then likely I am trying to speed up and help my team somewhere.

I am not quite sure people understand, but Riot can't just make an item that gives you a great first clear, junglers have to be gated to some extent, and giving a role that has literally control of the entire map in a sense, a ton of power is a bad idea.

I want to also point out a lot of AP junglers never really stop needing the blue buff, so I still don't quite get this quote, but maybe now they can share it if they must or they don't become completely useless without it now.

Another common complaint is that it's late game power pales in comparison to the other AP items, the same ones all getting buffed heavily. And honestly peoples solutions of just upping the AP don't really know what they are talking about, Diana is already at this tipping point where she can be the next 4.20 Warwick (Not as insane) and giving them a jungle item that helps her clear, mana, along with a ton of damage is retarded.

Truth is, you never really stop needing mana sustain, and while I think the item would have done well to have some mana regen, most people are just trying to compare it to what cinderhulk did for the tank role instead of actually trying to make the item work.

so chad1 votes

Which junglers are you using that guzzle mana that fast? Are you losing the mana doing jungle clears or ganking?

More to the point - no one is asking to give AP champs a great first clear. But right now the first clear is a brick wall for most AP champs who want to jungle. If Riot wants to create items that help champs jungle then for AP champs they need to reduce the burden of the first clear to an acceptable level.

Silents4292 votes

Which they can't do.

The only way to help a first clear is to buff the machete, nerf the jungle, or buff specific champions.

They can't do much with the machete for the reason above on gating Junglers, the jungle itself has been nerfed already, and buffing AP junglers like Diana is difficult to do. I think the reduction of CDR might be to far on the item, or lack of base mana regen is holding it back some, but it helps more then the magus did.

I myself don't jungle AP champions much anymore, I do however watch them closely as I am suppose to and every time I see them ganking or doing much of anything they have low mana.

so chad1 votes

They can create starting jungle items for each role in the same vein as Doran's items and the support items.

Silents4291 votes

But then were in the same boat as now, trying to balance more items around roles with little difference.

The machete already works well on everyone currently, and they can do little to it to make it role specific without causing problems.

so chad1 votes

Can you explain how that leaves us back where we started? I am not seeing that being the outcome of tailoring starting items for reach role.

Silents4291 votes

Because we are already trying to tailor each item specific to our role. And look how well that's going.

item 1039 is currently universal, there is no point in trying to make it role specific. You can only put so much into an item like this without causing other problems to spur up. Remember Jungling is a role that is meant for controlling the map, giving them early power is asking for trouble, and they are gated simply by items.

We "might" be able to make the next upgrade into something role specific, but still the upgrade is universal in most cases. But if you really needed a boost that the upgrade couldn't give just buy the other item that builds into the final jungle item.

Tanks - item 3751 Fighter - item 3134 AP - item 3057

so chad2 votes

Tailoring items to each role works wonderfully. Dorans Blade/Ring/Shield give every solo laner and ADC a solid start (ok maybe Doran's shield isn't so hot right now). Relic Shield/Spellthiefs/Ancient Coin make supporting much better than it used to be. That is what I (and many before me) are propsing for the jungle. The support itemization changes in season 3 honestly might be the best thing Riot has ever done for this game, in my opinion.

What do you mean junglers are gated only by items? Every lane is gated by items. What makes the jungle unique is that you will typically be gold and experience starved in comparison to your laners to make up for the element of surprise and relative safety.

Silents4291 votes

Right but it is easier to balance a lane item then a Jungle item, we can't bulk them up with any worthwhile stats at the start, for example giving them something akin to a weaker Dorans blade, plus a passive to help against monsters means junglers start off ahead of laners.

Spurring another level 2 ganking meta, the exact thing they have been trying to avoid.

And as a jungle main if you are still gold and experience starved at this point, you are the one doing something wrong, I play variety of champions, and I never end up behind bot lane, even on a farm heavy MasterYi , or a gank reliant Maokai

But again, reason Jungle is under a lot more restrictions early is because of the control they have.

4nth0l0gy1 votes

I like your ending remark. Jungle may require a very different mindset from other lanes, but it is still one jungler against one jungler with monsters to contest, and it still has a lot of diversity, even and especially at early levels.

Do you think AP junglers would benefit more from mana regen or from on-hit effects early?

so chad1 votes

Personally I think most AP junglers would benefit more from on-hit effects due to Blue Buff being very good at keeping you topped off early on.

UPfreely1 votes

the funny part is that its good on the junglers that didnt need any help and still crap for mages. Udyr ect

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