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A Rioter finally aknowledged that damage creep "Might" exist! (on reddit OFC).

Holgranth··90 votes·28,817 views

Blaustoise:

Couple thoughts:

(1) Actually more damage and how much - we don't know to what extent it's actually true. I think everyone's hunch is correct that we're dealing more damage/we're squishier now, it's just to what degree. Something one of our analysts u/RiotBenobo might look into this week. We could look at things like game bloodiness (kills per game, when they occur, etc.), TTK (time to kill) especially at early levels, stuff like that.

(2) Choice in old vs new runes - There are still defensive options in the rune system, it's just that now we have a lot of options that can also be optimal so we shy away from defensive ones. Splashing resolve secondary with bone-plating/chrysalis is kind of like your health/armor yellows and MR blues, but instead of being basically the only choice I think it's just a choice now. And frankly with a lot of champs we're more enticed by the spicy damage choices or other unique effects splash precision, dom, sorcercy, etc.

That being said I think we still have a more offense-focused system than previously, and the defensive choices we give you aren't 100% go-to optimized like they were in the old system.

(3) Pros vs Cons of higher lethality - I think in some cases the offense-focused new rune system may make some interactions and gameplay feel worse, but could improve it in other areas. I think this post only frames the cons of the current "high lethality" gameplay (if it really is even that high) without addressing some of the pros.

"we don't know to what extent it's actually true" My WHAT. How out of touch with the game are you? There are thousands of hours of video of previous seasons. Anyone with a half way working memory can tell you damage is higher than previous seasons. Tanks don't even function as damage soakers anymore.

There is a sweet spot between high and low lethality. But this season has gone WAY too far down the road of damage. The ONLY play style that is supported right now is high DPS, all in kill or be killed. Other styles used to be supported.

172 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectar51 votes

Meddler, myself, Repertoir and Scruffy met on this topic earlier today. We're going to be providing more concrete thoughts and what we're planning to do in the coming months. In Quick Gameplay Thoughts tomorrow Meddler is going to cover state of tanks, and then next week we're going to go into damage (splitting them up so that we can go more in depth then I did when I attempted to cover midseason / snowballing in one post a few days ago).

Keevalroy30 votes

Riot tends to plan a lot of things only to forget about them later as the pro scene picks back up, or end up doing the opposite instead. How do we know you're going to be taking the state of the game seriously this time? Because "trust us" stopped meaning anything to me in 2016.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

To be fair, the big goal of this season was to add different lanes/playstyles to people and that was a success.

I mean there are some who absolutely hate it but they were successful considering the insanity that is botlane.

RiotRiot MapleNectar39 votes

Honestly, if you truly feel like you can't trust us when we say we're going to do something then it's highly likely nothing I say here will convince you otherwise - and that's on us. That being said, while we don't always deliver on what we commit to for a plethora of reasons, it's not something we take lightly. That's one of the reasons why it's hard for us to actually commit to things publicly, as the pain of then NOT doing it is just that much higher than had we just said nothing. It's a catch 22 unfortunately, but I hope with time we can regain your trust with time.

Keevalroy18 votes

Against my better judgment since I've been burned three times in a row holding out hope for Riot to improve the game, I'll wait and see what happens, but I'm not holding my breath this time considering where your new design direction is taking League.

PerfectPower1 votes

[deleted]

Keevalroy2 votes

Spear was busted as fuck though...I'm actually glad they didn't go through with a bullshit item this time.

But to your point, yes. I also remember mobility creep being "on their radar" (and it's only increased) solo queue coming back (after a whole season of community revolts,) reverting updates that didn't work (hey Riot, you missed a spo...a lot...you missed a lot actually,) wanting to open up more playstyles for champions (LUL you'll be pigeonholed and like it peasant) etc.

HonestJohnTheCon14 votes

Credit to you for entering a post when another Rioter is being ridiculed to hell, but I still have a question.

Damage creep is the MOST complained-about thing on the Boards aside from maybe snowballing and mobility creep, so why have you waited so long to answer? Most people are upset because whenever someone brings up damage, Riot conveniently seems to dodge the topic.

At least we're finally getting some answers.

RiotRiot MapleNectar28 votes

It's actually a relatively divided topic internally tbh. From a pure data perspective, the amount of damage in the game isn't meaningfully higher than it has been in the past (and is actually down for some champs), the main difference is how much more frontloaded it is. Whether that be from Duskblade, Scorch, Aery etc, it's easier to apply reliable damage that amps your combat rotations or poke. That's an area where there's more division, on one hand higher damage ensures that fights conclude, that playing aggressively is rewarded and that playing purely defensively is easier to take advantage of. This is probably a bit spicy, but I personally believe that the Ardent Censer meta from worlds couldn't have existed this season given that aggressive teams could have better taken advantage of the weaker earlier game of the team going for the AC rush (no vision, no hp from sightstone etc). Picking aggressive combos like Leo/Trist would have been a much better counter to the strategy.

That being said - and this is my opinion - I think there's probably a bit too much damage right now that lacks sufficient counterplay. I played against a Soraka yesterday in a playtest and her being able to apply both Aery and Scorch immediately to me with E doesn't feel particularly great. I don't want to get too deep into the weeds here though, since that's just my opinion - but hope that once we collect our thoughts next week we're able to give you a firmer stance and what/if we're going to do something.

Keevalroy6 votes

A great deal of the issue, including the example you just gave, came from Runes Reforged, and ultimately how much free, reliable power keystones give.

Just something to think about for one of the potential future posts about damage.

Fisherman Fizz19 votes

I replied to Blau's post with something that sounded pretty similar to this, gonna copy/paste it here:

I think perception is also a big part of it. On top of runes being a more offense focused system, there's also more power shifted from raw stats into new and visually more obvious effects like electrocute/aery/duskblade/etc.

So now when a Zed EQ autos you and you die, rather than him just having the raw stats to kill you, he's also procing electrocute/duskblade/other runes on you, which makes the PERCEIVED damage much higher, because you can visually see a bunch more sources of damage than before. Having more power concentrated into those kind of effects also makes it seem much more "bursty" and makes it feel like you have less time to outplay things.

Also, new runes and other offensive tools tend to break down lots of coubterplay options once someone is ahead. Using zed again just because he's one of the biggest offenders of this, once he's ahead he can R you, miss everything, E + auto you once with duskblade, ignite you, proc electrocute and you die. Even if you dodge his Q, when you just die anyway it feels like you got cheated, because you "played well" but died to these new offensive effects that you can't do much about.

This can also apply in lane with a lot of new runes as well. Get clipped by one Lux E? Well now you also take damage from comet/scorch/etc. as well. Even if this damage was even with what it did before, it FEELS like more because youre getting hit by several things now instead of just the E.

RiotRiot MapleNectar22 votes

This is a fantastic breakdown. I'd also add that even small UX changes like how the hp bar literally shakes when you deal burst damage all plays into how it feels like you're doing more damage. Viscerality plays a huge part in perception, and your post nails it on the head

AtheosisX7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K0b5fhnN,comment-id=00150001000100050001,timestamp=2018-07-27T03:21:41.265+0000)

This is a fantastic breakdown. I'd also add that even small UX changes like how the hp bar literally shakes when you deal burst damage all plays into how it feels like you're doing more damage. Viscerality plays a huge part in perception, and your post nails it on the head

Oh, no. Please don't fool yourself into thinking this is mostly about perception.

  1. The new runes both increase damage and reduce durability for most champions, as they offer no defensive stats unless one takes Resolve in one of their two trees. With the old system pretty much every champ had at least some defensive stats.

  2. Duskblade and Stormrazor, newer items that didn't exist in previous metas, absolutely lead to massive burst damage. This has nothing to do with perception. It's just a fact.

  3. Electrocute is much more powerful than Thunderlord's when it procs, leading to more 100-0 potential. Even though it procs less often, the burst it offers is massively bigger. Again, this is not about perception. It's just a fact.

Automated Riven2 votes

Don't forget all the other random damage runes that didn't exist before. Scorch. Eyeball collection. And so on that basically just give you either stats far and above what were seen in old mastery pages. Or just flat damage. Again. Far and above what you would see in old pages and runes.

Vekkna23 votes

The math on the Zed example speaks for itself. It isn't a perception issue. This isn't an invented problem. We aren't deceived by our lying eyes. Compared to last October:

  • Ignite is stronger
  • Electrocute is stronger (base and ratio)
  • Starting AD is higher
  • Lethality loss mitigated by Sudden Impact
  • Mage armor is lower
  • Zed's base damage is higher
  • Zed (and tons of other champs) were buffed repeatedly

The screen shaking (or whatever) isn't causing me to perceive Ignite dealing 20% more damage. Just want to be extremely clear about this.

RiotRiot MapleNectar23 votes

Ah, my reply to Fisherman Fizz wasn't meant to imply that I think this is just a UX thing, only acknowledging that it does play a part in shaping perception, regardless of how large

Vekkna6 votes

Sorry, my post sounded bitchier than intended when I re-read it (as they often do). I'm sort of dreading the possibility of a Riot post explaining why damage is perfectly fine as-is, and I'm pre-emptively arguing against that conclusion.

My first reaction on preseason patch day was "wtf is this damage?!" Since then, I have spent a lot of time trying to answer my own questions and raise the matter in replies to reds. This has been my biggest complaint throughout all of season 8, and it's the thing I blame for my seriously degraded relationship with the game. I want to have more fun than I'm having right now.

There is a lot more equivocation in this thread than I expected, and it makes me nervous to think that the Riot response may be some form of "this isn't a problem according to the metrics," "it's a perception issue," "it's because of the Spellthief supports," "people are just playing higher-damage champs during preseason," or "player surveys show that damage is just fine." If my experience is that this issue feels like an emergency, it's jarring to see responses that question whether a problem exists at all.

I strongly suspect that this problem is not easily identified by metrics, otherwise it would have been on your radar long before now. The response, then, is to proactively look for ways to validate player complaints and presume that there may be a gap in the data or analytics that is causing this huge disconnect between Riot and players.

Cosnirak9 votes

I disagree strongly. I don't think perception of multiple damage sources has anything to do with it at all (or if it does, it's hiding the creep). Perception obviously affects some aspects of how we feel about damage, but seeing me get hit by multiple things doesn't make me feel like I took more damage, taking more damage makes me feel like I took more damage.

People have always had trouble perceiving how much damage they actually take from damage over time effects, often underestimating it. Which is why people often felt that DFT was doing far less than it really was. Single big hits stand out and make you really feel like you got hit hard. Three smaller hits that occur over a second or two likely has a similar effect, obscuring the fact that they've actually been hit very hard.

The current problem is that we die, and we die without feeling like we're able to actually do anything about it. And looking at your data has several issues showing that. Even if I do half the damage in a game that I did a year ago, I might do it earlier on and it can have more impact.

People with less hp (whether due to runes/items/lower level) take less damage to kill. Also people living longer can increase damage done to them substantially because we're always regenerating hp. And things being very bursty encourages ultra safe play where no one hits each other for a while and then suddenly people die. So what metrics of damage are Riot looking at to see if we do more now than before? And how long ago?

I get that Riot isn't going to give us a million charts with context explaining your full thoughts on the matter and I'm not actually asking you to. But please keep in mind while looking at the data that there is actually no single context-free metric anyone can look at and be certain that effective damage creep isn't an issue. I can go over several of the reasons why if you want, but honestly I shouldn't have to, yet I'm deeply afraid that it would be beneficial.

Vekkna3 votes

the amount of damage in the game isn't meaningfully higher than it has been in the past (and is actually down for some champs)

Of course damage will APPEAR lower in the metrics when opponents don't have as much time to heal it off. Look at the average damage for Karthus or Teemo compared to Talon or Kha'zix. Now, which of those pairs has the faster TTK?

If Teemo's target is being heal spammed by Soraka, Teemo might deal two health bars of damage before getting a kill. If Talon deletes his target faster than the human response time, Soraka's not getting any heals off, and Talon only needs to deal one health bar to get a kill.

I really think this is an example of where you guys are not seeing the forest for the trees. We know for a fact that all-in burst is up by looking at runes, patch notes, ignite buffs, etc. We also know that damage is further amplified by the plethora of % modifiers and multiplicative scalings in runes. The % multipliers were disproportionately found in the Precision tree and on ADC items, which is exactly what pushed them so far out of control.

Teridax687 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=K0b5fhnN,comment-id=001500010001,timestamp=2018-07-27T02:16:36.158+0000)

It's actually a relatively divided topic internally tbh. From a pure data perspective, the amount of damage in the game isn't meaningfully higher than it has been in the past (and is actually down for some champs), the main difference is how much more frontloaded it is.

Are we talking purely about damage, or are we also talking about time-to-kill here? Because a major reason why damage feels excessive is also because Runes Reforged took away the armor/MR practically everyone took beforehand.

RiotRiot MapleNectar8 votes

Both tbh

Teridax688 votes

So you're saying your data is telling you time-to-kill has remained around the same since Seasons 4-5? Which time frame exactly are you setting for these measurements?

HeeroTX4 votes

Would it be possible to get (high level, not "details") how you're calculating damage done? Is it total or p/s or by X minute, etc? I ask because it is easy to see how damage has increased while certain metrics might say it has "dropped". If you give everyone 1 billion damage AAs but then don't count damage beyond the kill amount then damage has obviously gone up but the stats will say it "remained level". Likewise, if you're using "total damage/game" as a metric but games end faster because it's easier to kill enemies then your metric can show a decrease even though the damage was increased. I'm assuming all that is completely accounted for and thus your calculation is more nuanced, but only hearing "damage has gone down for some champs" leaves me to assume that either you're being deliberately disingenuous (looking at obviously nerfed champs) or accidentally so (looking at a calculation that doesn't account for game impact and instead just reading flat numbers). I do not think EITHER of those things is true, so I'm asking for clarification for your public benefit.

Realistically I think the "damage creep" problem at its core is that the game FEELS bad now. My PERSONAL opinion is that too many balance choices have taken League in a "team deathmatch" direction at the expense of the "team strategy" game that most people love. If I have 2 people with paintball guns and 50 obstacles between them, then the game has a lot of nuance and planning in order to see how can beat the other utilizing the environment to their benefit. If I drop the same two guys into any empty room 50' apart, it's a completely different game. The "damage" has not changed, but the "feel" is entirely different. Whether it is because of weak armor/MR, or overloaded damage, or even some weird tangent like excessive utility or lack of vision; I feel that "burst" is too strong in the game. At the absolute, tip-top of the game, I think players can make the tiny micro adjustments necessary to modify the outcome DURING a big team fight, but I think for the VAST majority of players, once the team fight starts it's "who unloads their full kit first to wipe you out".

Vekkna6 votes

Hopefully the post will address some (or any) of the things I mentioned in these posts from November through January.

{quoted}

Do you guys think any of these are problems with this season?

  • TTK is too low overall

  • Ambient damage is high and frustrating (eg, comet, aery, scorch, cheap shot)

  • Hybrid, AD, and tank magic damage is too high

  • Item use/proc damage is too high (eg, gunblade, duskblade, titanic, shiv)

  • High-damage meta indirectly boosting the relative power of cc/mitigation/immunity/untargetable duration without any change in the power budget of these skills. (eg, a 1.0 second stun is extremely powerful when it takes .9 seconds to kill the enemy, but it is fairly weak when it takes 5 seconds to kill the same enemy)

  • Total disconnect between damage, burst, durability, and utility

  • Defense being too kit-reliant while offense is more item-reliant (eg divers get carry/assassin damage from rushing 1-2 damage items while still being durable, but most squishies forfeit any kill-threat by building 1-2 tank items at any point in the game.)

Riot's assessments of preseason and season 8 to date have been largely positive or even self-congratulatory. It doesn't seem like public-facing Rioters experience these issues or recognize them as problems. It's just bizarre, and to me it looks like...

https://media.giphy.com/media/VOq7iem25Z94Y/giphy.gif

EDIT: Here are some other (very old) points I raised in the past that remain true today:

{quoted}

Removing starting resists indirectly buffed the magic damage on ADs by like ~7%. Stuff like

Renekton 1800 magic damage on R Tristana 500 magic damage on R Thresh 550 magic damage on R Shyvana magic on WER KogMaw 7% max hp magic damage on hit Varus 15% max hp magic damage Ashe 600 magic damage on R

Then you dumped a shitload of damage multipliers in the precision tree, which adds an exponent to the magic damage increase from magic on-hits from cancer like Kog'maw.

This is a major reason why overall damage feels so much higher. All of these examples were intended to be reduced by base stats because the champs were not designed to itemize for mpen, and converting it all to physical would turn them all into lethality assassins.

Half the AD roster's damage is way up because they never itemized for mpen in the first place.

And again...

{quoted}

The actual design of the runes is (mostly) not good. There is a ton of ambient aoe and surprise burst. Clutter is up, clarity is down, and it's much harder to judge relative power at a glance when high-impact cooldowns are not telegraphed (unless you're a mage with comet because...of course).

The direction of the new system doubles down on "win more." You get lots of permanent flat power for dominating vision and killing enemies, on top of the normal gold and xp advantage. This is all very predictable, but here we are.

The trees are fundamentally imbalanced because you have the entire Precision tree dedicated to multiplicative stats and modifiers while the other trees provide additive damage with fixed ratios. When an ADC buys crit, attack speed, crit damage, and LDR, the Precision runes will cause them to scale out of control far earlier in the game. And of course, adaptive flat damage will make lethality-stackers overbearing the second they get a lead.

Then there's the problem of the stat rebalance, which served as a huge buff to ADs that deal magic damage but don't itemize for it at all. Champs like...

Warwick Tristana Shaco XinZhao Kayn KogMaw Udyr DrMundo

Along with a bunch of AP and support tanks whose high base damage was clearly balanced around enemy MR. Meanwhile, the half-measure buffs to Sorcs and Void only ended up causing standard mages to have larger power spikes.

If you polled players and asked them if they wanted an easy-to-use rune system at the cost of making the game worse/less fun for months, how many would answer "yes?" You're essentially saying that Riot can recreate years worth of balance equilibrium in the span of one month. It's not going to happen. We'll still be here having these conversations in midseason.

Nea1042 votes

That's the problem. People pointed out that damage felt absurd back in NOVEMBER. They haven't listened nor cared for like 8 MONTHS, so at this point it's just late :D

pseudo dionysius24 votes

He's most likely just trying to play the part of "moderate" rioter when he says "we don't know to what extent it's actually true". However, I wouldn't totally be surprised if he was being serious. Regardless, hopefully there will finally be dialog over this nonsense.

Death by Glamour21 votes

its actually laughable, do they just have their collective heads in the sand or do they all play fortnite/pubg.

I honestly don't know why they don't just nerf lethality rather than buff crit builds, it takes us back to square one

ADCs HITTING LATE GAME TOO QUICKLY

remakoro19 votes

Choice in old vs new runes - There are still defensive options in the rune system, it's just that now we have a lot of options that can also be optimal so we shy away from defensive ones.

WHERE? WHERE IS IT? 2 runes in resolve? WOW

Keevalroy21 votes

{quoted}

WHERE? WHERE IS IT? 2 runes in resolve? WOW

"MeAnInGfUl ChOiCeS"

La Bello17 votes

"might" have more damage.

  • ONE RUNE (Overcharger) in of itself grants more AD than a ENTIRE PAGE OF PER LEVELS COULD (infinite AD/AP)

  • Electrocute WAS PURPOSEFULLY MADE to have double the damage of old tlords but also double the CD. That was the intended design!

  • Not even counting the innate page bonus Water walking,Ghost Poro and Absolute focus in of itself can give up to 62 AD/100AP ust by manner of being in the right place.

  • LETHAL TEMPO LITERALLY TURNS PEOPLE INTO A POTENTIAL JUGGERMAW WITH 110% AS + AS BREAK

yeah I think you "might" have gone overboard with runes too.

Larriet4 votes

I think that first one is called Gathering Storm, not Overcharger. Although it's important to note that it also doesn't grant much in the way of stats in most games because it ramps up.

Z3Sleeper14 votes

Ugh so bold. Can you like, just quote it instead of bolding it. My eyes can't handle reading this... but I still read it.

{quoted}

"We don't know to what extent it's actually true" My WHAT. How out of touch with the game are you?

You don't have to play the game to know how to balance it :^)

DNFVixen11 votes

{quoted}

Blaustoise:

Couple thoughts:

(1) Actually more damage and how much - we don't know to what extent it's actually true. I think everyone's hunch is correct that we're dealing more damage/we're squishier now, it's just to what degree. Something one of our analysts u/RiotBenobo might look into this week. We could look at things like game bloodiness (kills per game, when they occur, etc.), TTK (time to kill) especially at early levels, stuff like that.

(2) Choice in old vs new runes - There are still defensive options in the rune system, it's just that now we have a lot of options that can also be optimal so we shy away from defensive ones. Splashing resolve secondary with bone-plating/chrysalis is kind of like your health/armor yellows and MR blues, but instead of being basically the only choice I think it's just a choice now. And frankly with a lot of champs we're more enticed by the spicy damage choices or other unique effects splash precision, dom, sorcercy, etc.

That being said I think we still have a more offense-focused system than previously, and the defensive choices we give you aren't 100% go-to optimized like they were in the old system.

(3) Pros vs Cons of higher lethality - I think in some cases the offense-focused new rune system may make some interactions and gameplay feel worse, but could improve it in other areas. I think this post only frames the cons of the current "high lethality" gameplay (if it really is even that high) without addressing some of the pros.

"we don't know to what extent it's actually true" My WHAT. How out of touch with the game are you? There are thousands of hours of video of previous seasons. Anyone with a half way working memory can tell you damage is higher than previous seasons. Tanks don't even function as damage soakers anymore.

There is a sweet spot between high and low lethality. But this season has gone WAY too far down the road of damage. The ONLY play style that is supported right now is high DPS, all in kill or be killed. Other styles used to be supported.

With Ghostcancer in power we have no hope.

hotarse11 votes

Just do yourselves all a favor and leave the game to the 10 year olds that now own it.

Keevalroy12 votes

{quoted}

Just do yourselves all a favor and leave the game to the 10 year olds that now design it.

FTFY

ACTI0NBASTARD10 votes

Lol. Proof in my eyes Riot does not play their own game. Though, the last couple of years have kinda shown that anyways. I used to have hope Riot would right their ship. Maybe they still can. I doubt it at this point.

EasternBladeStar10 votes

Sooo...

6 months and we have an official opinion that "something MIGHT be a little off".

That's it. I've given up hope.

SanKakU9 votes

[deleted]

chipndip123 votes

Wtf is this post?

ModCaptainMårvelous16 votes

I can't wait for the Viktor rework when he tears off his shirt and flexes his mecha muscles to be the first AP Brawler.

Nausicäa 9 votes

Classic Riot bullshit. Over analyzing a a problem and wasting time debating whether the problem is actually a problem when its obvious to everyone else that it is.

No one Riot does everything at a snails pace.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

The comments in this post are garbage. They finally open up about something that you people have wanted discussion about for a long time, and it's just more insults and attacks. I get it, you're frustrated, about others not sharing your perspective, but grow up. You've finally got what you wanted, throw some actual constructed help instead of this "OH YA JUST NOTICING" crap. It ain't helpful.

Cosnirak4 votes

We did not get "what we wanted." What we got was the barest minimum of acknowledgement that the issue might exist despite us feeling that the issue extremely obviously exists and is an on fire level of problem in need of immediate addressing. But sure we should just be ok with that because one Rioter is gonna ask one other Rioter to look into it some.

And even this only told to us on reddit after months of people bringing it up over and over on the boards. People have every right to be upset, if for no other reason than it's taken this long for any response. Even if they completely disagree they should've said something, anything about it a long time ago. And they deserve to be told that they've failed in this regard and mocked for it because it's an inexcusable mistake on Riot's end.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

A step forward is still a step forward. A lot of people here have been perturbed by the amount of silence there is about it. The fact that it was acknowledged at all, at lack of a better term, is better than nothing. Mocking people only serves to hurt your own point, as it makes you look much less reasonable and much more angry, and angry people aren't the best people to get opinions from.

I'm not saying to lessen up, I'm saying chill. Sure, it's a 'maybe', but it's been addressed. They explained some of their reasonings, their point of view. Discussion can open up, but all we have are people being angry and mocking. That's not proper for trying to get what you want.

Cosnirak5 votes

A step forward is still a step forward.

That's great and all, but a tiny inch forward after a long time is still unacceptably short, especially when going much further is so easy. "Better than nothing" is not where the bar should be set.

Mocking people only serves to hurt your own point, as it makes you look much less reasonable and much more angry, and angry people aren't the best people to get opinions from.

That's simply not true at all, not even one of those points. I don't advocate for the reckless mocking of people, not even close. But when something is absurd then the appropriate response, at least in cases like this of a mass of people without power towards a smaller group with power, is to in fact mock.

but it's been addressed.

Except that it hasn't been. It hasn't even been admitted as true. It's been acknowledged as a possibility, that's it. And that's not even remotely close to good enough.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

It just got addressed, oh ye of (reasonably so, due to issues of communication, promises, and otherwise silence) little faith. Scroll up this post.

Cosnirak4 votes

It still hasn't been addressed, it's once again been considered as a possibility that they'll investigate. While it's great that at last they're actually talking about it for real (and to the players even!) it's still terrifying that they're uncertain about it. They should be neck deep in data and testing, figuring out just how drastically changes need to be made to put out this 5 alarm fire. Instead they're divided on if it's even real.

I desperately want to hope that this is the first step in big changes to come to alleviate this issue. But the evidence suggests that at best we'll get some minor changes in a month or two that barely serve to mitigate the damage creep from the previous month or two alone and people at Riot will pat themselves on the back for a job well done and continue on making the game unplayably unfun.

Ayzev2 votes

{quoted}

they deserve to be mocked

While I do get a giggle out of some of these comments, that's really all that mockery will accomplish. They won't suddenly fix everything there is to fix just because someone quoted "don't need to play the game to design it" for the 1000th time.

Cosnirak2 votes

I agree that the quote is dumb, but I completely disagree that mockery won't accomplish anything but a few giggles. It sends a message, and when they read the mockery they receive that message. It varies from post to post somewhat but the overriding point is that they aren't doing their job well enough in this regard. And if you read their own posts about stuff they get mocked for they generally seem to get and accept that and acknowledge it (eventually at least).

Compare it to the devs for some games (or lots occasions outside gaming) where people being mocked for stuff like this often deflect and downplay and dismiss concerns. Riot may get there way too late, disagree on whether it's even the issue we say it is, ect., but they still acknowledge that something happened and made players upset and they care. Ghostcrawler himself has many times said that anger from players doesn't generally bother him because he understands it stems from player passion.

Personally I hate the terrible misquote about not needing to play the game and other things along that vein, as well as stuff like personal threats and baseless character attacks. But legitly mocking their failures, especially egregious ones, is a valuable tool of the masses to express the depth of their pain.

nm10105 votes

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