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No one complained about Zed before mana regen nerfs

ApplyForAGrant·2/25/2015, 5:11:29 PM·110 votes·5,353 views

Zed is no Lee Sin. Anyone who has decent memories know that he isn't strong in every meta. Remember when exhaust was strong in mid S4 and Zed saw little to no competitive play for 5 months? I don't think many people here do. That's when Zed had the "get out of jail free" button on his reactivate R. So it's clearly not what makes him "broken".

The 60% ban rate, LCS priority, and QQ only happened since preseason, after Riot gutted mana regeneration. What happens after? Now 80% of mages have to pay more for their lane harass and waveclear, while Zed was untouched. NOW he suddenly seems to have "endless" poke and waveclear, which is exactly what makes him overbearing in the current meta.

Why did Riot nerf mages? I have no idea. The balance was perfect between assassins and mages during end S4, and the geniuses at Riot decided to tip the scale in favour of assassins again. Then Riot gutted every assassin in patch 5.2 while Zed got a love tap. And here we have the Zed that everyone hates today.

Zed's kit may be a bit too versatile, but it wasn't the YOU GOTTA FIX THIS SHIT NOW overpowered until mana regen was nerfed. I think the best way to tone him down is to buff mages's laning phase rather than giving him more nerfs.

71 Comments

Retillin2/25/2015, 5:14:39 PM28 votes

But they don't WANT mages. They want flashy assassing (ad or ap doesn't matter). Riot is trying to build a television show more than a game.

Sirsir2/25/2015, 5:22:04 PM16 votes

No I'm pretty sure people complained about him back then too... Maybe not as much, but...

Strawberrycocoa2/25/2015, 10:29:16 PM12 votes

Adding in non-mana resources was a mistake.

A big fucking MISTAKE that they're now stuck with.

The disparity between mana users and those that don't have to worry about running dry of a resource is ridiculous and I don't know why it's been allowed to go on as long as it has.

It'd be better (not to mention more fun) if ALL resources were removed from the game and everything worked off cooldown alone like Garen and Katarina.

Minrog2/25/2015, 8:13:56 PM5 votes

Stacking Zhonya's + QSS on everybody but the tanks, people are gonna resent that they have to spend 7000 - 8000 gold teamwide whenever they let a Zed slip through the ban phase. Exhaust still can work to slow him down in teamfights, so you resource extra summoners. Then you devote someone to blocking his split push; it has to be a character that can 1v1 against Zed under their tower and there are barely any characters that can do that especially post 20 minutes. Thankfully most Zed mids don't run TP atm (more kill pressure in lane) but it's even worse when he's got that. You can build a team comp around punishing a split push but Zed is actually the best assassin atm so he'll just group 5 and look for a flank instead; if your game plan isn't more than just reactive picks you probably lost anyway.

He takes a crap ton of team resources to counter. That's why Hai from Cloud 9 is like 13-2 with him over the last couple years and you might not see Hai get to play Zed again for a long time. You still can't shut down Zed's farm and if he's skilled at all he's not going to get killed even when overextending (technically Zed can't overextend, he's like Nidalee that way, but you understand what I mean). If you know that the Zed you are facing is gonna play like Keanne, or you are willing to pay the team resources to counter him (maybe you hate Kallista/Vi/Lissandra more) then yeah. But the only people who don't dislike Zed are the ones who rush to him on every overbuff or the Zed mains themselves.

Cindikle2/25/2015, 10:09:34 PM5 votes

Mana Font was nerfed because it gave too much regen passively. It required no interaction to achieve the ability to waveclear for days.

This is overall why Xerath and Lissandra probably wont see many nerfs if any(beyond Xerath's stun nerf).

The regen it provided was fine. But they need to find away to make it require actually playing the game, not stalling it. I think giving mages ways to gain mana, even if small, in their abilities in the way to go.

Example being Lux. Have procing her passive give her 5% of her max mana per spell cast(meaining she can't throw an E and proc the mana multiple times).

This is a lot weaker than Xerath's passive, even if you build mana. It requires her to actually cast a spell and interact with her spells. Her ability to sit far back and throw Q's and E's will still drain her just as it does now. She'll have to move up closer and put herself in danger to get the mana.

Ziggs can get a 50% cost reduction on his next ability after he kills a unit with his passive. CSing with his passive will allow him to Q the guy too far for his AA to hit. It doesn't give him that much overall though. Things can be adjusted if need be.

Brand can gain 1% of his missing mana every time his passive damages an enemy champion.

Orianna's ultimate can give a bonus 25/50/75% mana regeneration when the ball is on herself.

Syndra's Q mana cost can go down(to help match the damage reduction mainly. Although I think the damage should return and they reduce it's radius, returning it when she has it at rank 5). It's mostly where her mana costs come from, failing to make the most of it can be very punishing.

Viktor has a few choices. Easiest one is to attach something to his staff. Although the only costly ability he has is his E. Only time I ever find myself having trouble with his mana is in teamfights. Maybe have his ulti return 1/2/3 mana for every champion it damages.

These kinds of changes could even make mana regen a choice instead of a requirement. If they do this an add another 20% CDR ap item without regen it would add a lot of options.

WutsKraken2/25/2015, 11:26:22 PM3 votes

This is true. Zed's only strong in very certain situations...current meta is perfect for him

Martyrofsand2/25/2015, 6:48:10 PM3 votes

I've been saying Zed was broken since his release when he had enough damage to kill a tank with his kit plus botrk.

I continued to say Zed is broken since his ult got changed to give him a gap closer, untargetability and an escape all in one button on top of a lot of damage.

I will continue to say Zed is broken just like I will continue to say Nid/Lee/Kalista/Leblac/etc are broken, and its for all the same reasons. They either have to much damage, utility or both for the amount of mobility in their kits. Sadly instead of doing the intelligent thing and removing their mobility riot will continue to leave them in their broken state where they will be to strong or to weak with no middle ground in which to balance them.

LoLKiru2/25/2015, 8:27:10 PM3 votes

Important to remember this was around the time everyone was screaming that mana costs were completely pointless and most champions didn't really need to care about their mana pools, sort of a two way issue here.

People didn't think about the consequences of what actually making mana regen worse would do.

AnomalousChimera2/25/2015, 8:55:40 PM3 votes

Zed was the one of the most highly banned champions in solo queue before the preseason changes.

SpongeDude2/25/2015, 11:18:09 PM3 votes

I clearly see that Zed "might" be op since he got a powerspike at lvl 6. Every mid laner buys zhonya anyways which negates Zed's ult. Every ADC with some sense buys QQS or Mercurial which negates Zed's ult. I just figured out that Zed's ult got so much counterplay and i don't really see the point of some QQ's in threads. summoner 1 No , i'm not a zed main. I would if I felt like I should spend anymore $ in this game and get the shockblade skin.. but no. Sorry for crappy english

ThePlasticSpork2/26/2015, 4:21:28 AM3 votes

Zed reactivating R isn't what makes him broken - it just promotes stupid and unthoughtful play on his part. Just because it's not what makes him OP doesn't make it a good mechanic for him to have. Even when mana regen was better it wasn't a good mechanic, for exactly the same reason. It also removed choice from the Zed player - save W for a safety net, or use it to get more damage through a triple Q.

I actually like the current mana regen model, because it discourages using spells just because you can. I dislike that the balance designers seem to have forgotten that several mid laners do not use mana (and a select few who do but do not pay much heed to it) and did not appropriate balance changes to account for that fact. In a League where Xerath's passive doesn't exist and energy champions are actually less reliable than mana champions late game, these changes would be awesome. But this is not that League.

Riot needs to balance mid lane around this new mana regen model. Energy champions should be noticeably less reliable in the late game than their mana using counterparts, because energy is easily better early. Some energy champions do follow that model, others don't. The ones that don't need to be brought in line. Completely resourceless champions should pay with having higher cooldowns, because being resourceless (all other things being equal) is better at every stage of the game. Almost none of the resourceless champions except for Garen and Renekton (I don't really consider fury a resource in the same sense as energy or mana) are logically cooldown gated. Yasuo in URF is almost the same champion as Yasuo in the normal game. Katarina's cooldowns aren't exactly super restricting to begin with, and then you throw resets into the mix. Riven has very low cooldowns on her spells. You get the idea.

The mana regen changes are good and promote more thoughtful play. Riot just needs to introduce more thoughtful play patterns onto the champions who don't use mana.

Pryotra2/26/2015, 9:39:39 AM3 votes

Here is the thing; Alot of people were complaining that item 3174 invalidated the mana bar. Which it did. It made every single person who picked it up effectively have infinite mana.

Rito fixed it, and in such a way that nothing would be able to just take it's place and invalidated mana bars again. Good for them.

Now, however, we see that Energy based mobility is on the rise. I think the concept of a mobile energy user is OK. However, when given so much damage and failsafes in the early phases with little to no drop off, and suddenly people start having issues.

Frankley Karles2/26/2015, 7:15:28 PM3 votes

The issue with Zed now, as you said, is the one advantage he has over other assassins: his resource. As things stand, Zed is the only mid assassin (sans akali, though her kit is far less versatile, possibly kennen) with energy as a resource, one which has taken no hit from the preseason changes. Even leblanc, debatably the current queen of AP assassins, is eventually forced to recall when her mana is inevitably spent. By extension, this allows Zed to invest early gold into his usual "longsword/3 pots" starting build, which inherently allows him to build his first item faster than Dorans-bound champs while giving him more early sustain, allowing him to stay in lane longer, which in turn nets him more early cs and experience.

Zed isn't even limited by his cooldowns. His passive makes last-hitting child's play, even under his turret (in the off chance that he loses in lane). His escape gets its CD inherently reduced by his E, on top of the CDR in his build. Additionally, where AP mids usually build Sorc Shoes, Zed is free to invest his boots either into mobility boots (which bolsters his already potent roaming power) or Lucidity boots (which enhances his aforementioned cooldowns). Both allow him to convert his laning power to global pressure, either by snowballing lanes through ganks/objectives or by broadening his opportunities to delete enemy carries.

Overall, Zed just has so many small benefits that he can convert into polarizing advantages. His resource advantage has only just emerged this season since its been unchanged; a soft buff on the grounds that nearly all of his tough lane opponents have been hindered in their ability to match his pace.

Profirix2/26/2015, 8:29:44 AM2 votes

While I agree with 99.9% of this post, I still think that Zed has far too much safe play attached to his all-in. His R is basically a guaranteed get out of jail free card in 1v1s and if for some reason its not good enough, you have your w.

That being said, yes, without a laning opponent like Ziggs who can just blast Zed from afar without giving him a chance to engage you at full health has severely nerfed all of his hard counters. Mana cost reduction to all mages or mana regen buff would fix a meta that was already balanced around mage counterplay anyway. They basically pulled the rug out from underneath 99% of the mages.

Raptamei2/25/2015, 10:33:17 PM2 votes

{quoted}

No one complained about Zed before mana regen nerfs

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01396/fish_1396516c.jpg

Mephistophilis2/26/2015, 12:02:00 PM2 votes

As you pointed on, the problem of zed is the free poke and waveclear, noone complains him about his assassin pattern and killing potential. Indeed he is an "healty assassin" but he's not an healty laner, nor an healty champion overall.

LordOfTheLeague2/25/2015, 9:04:41 PM2 votes

{quoted}

Why did Riot nerf mages? I have no idea. The balance was perfect ***between assassins and mages ***during end S4, and the geniuses at Riot decided to tip the scale in favour of assassins again. Then Riot gutted every assassin in patch 5.2 while Zed got a love tap. And here we have the Zed that everyone hates today.

I think it's why they nerfed mages. Riot is trying to put diversity in the game. That mean that they doesn't want lanes to be stereotyped and filled with specific class. The only roles that could handle mages are others mages or assassins because they could push bruisers, tanks or marksman out of lane too easily. Now they are easier to deal with but some champion - like zed - are not balanced around this (supposed by me) new philosophy.

Chespin20132/27/2015, 3:07:11 PM1 votes

must like for the truth sadly lol has become a joke within the last couple of months I almost don't even think about playing anymore and I don't think many ppl don't know about this issue is zed is quite balanced its just that mages mana regen is shit compared to last season I thought riot cared for their game but I guess they rather watch lcs and make skins instead of actual balance

LoL Ergo Urgot2/26/2015, 9:20:48 PM1 votes

This is interesting and gives me something to think about, good post op.

Jungle Lux God2/26/2015, 11:35:46 AM1 votes

The thing about the mana regen changes is that the changes themselves were pretty sensible. Make regeneration (both health and mana) scale with the champ as the game progressed? Seemed pretty reasonable.

However, mages got such low benefit out of the changes compared to their current itemization that it was the drastic nerf to mana-based champs that we see on live.

CoolKnightST2/26/2015, 3:17:34 PM1 votes

The solution has already been posted on the forum:

+ = (cost reduced with 150 gold)

Sorioku2/25/2015, 9:45:07 PM1 votes

I made a very similar post earlier. That's the very reason. Anyone who could push him out goes oom too fast.

Pyromaniacks2/25/2015, 11:03:29 PM1 votes

I remember a circlejerk thread awhile back where the op stated that zed was so well balanced and had healthy counterplay options to him and every post were people agreeing like they were all high and someone imagined a "good" idea. Skip right ahead to restarting this game and the exact opposite threads appear.

FluxBound2/26/2015, 3:22:58 PM1 votes

I don't think there were too many complaints, but people still knew he was kinda op around late s4. But I still agree with you, mages live a sad mana less life.

Risurin2/25/2015, 11:11:12 PM1 votes

item 3165

better then athene atm, and works better against AD solo lanes, specially if there is good chances to get lifesteal. still not as good as mana regen used to be, but its still better in the current state then athene

HandheldBrandon2/26/2015, 1:11:17 AM1 votes

{quoted}

Zed is no Lee Sin. Anyone who has decent memories know that he isn't strong in every meta. Remember when exhaust was strong in mid S4 and Zed saw little to no competitive play for 5 months? I don't think many people here do. That's when Zed had the "get out of jail free" button on his reactivate R. So it's clearly not what makes him "broken".

The 60% ban rate, LCS priority, and QQ only happened since preseason, after Riot gutted mana regeneration. What happens after? Now 80% of mages have to pay more for their lane harass and waveclear, while Zed was untouched. NOW he suddenly seems to have "endless" poke and waveclear, which is exactly what makes him overbearing in the current meta.

Why did Riot nerf mages? I have no idea. The balance was perfect between assassins and mages during end S4, and the geniuses at Riot decided to tip the scale in favour of assassins again. Then Riot gutted every assassin in patch 5.2 while Zed got a love tap. And here we have the Zed that everyone hates today.

Zed's kit may be a bit too versatile, but it wasn't the YOU GOTTA FIX THIS SHIT NOW overpowered until mana regen was nerfed. I think the best way to tone him down is to buff mages's laning phase rather than giving him more nerfs.

The problem as i see it is that Zed outpushes you which allows him to be aggressive and then if you do the same thing and try to wave clear you run out of resources and he continues to freely do it until you run out of resources at which point he can go all in and not worry about any repercussions or retaliation because you spent your resources to stem the tide of his wave clear.

Literally he pushes and becomes aggressive you push to stop being shoved in. Zed wins in every scenario.

Also Zed forces you to build an item that stops his aggression otherwise at level 6 he wins nearly all trades while he doesnt have to worry about resource management. The only reason mages and Assassins were even is because people were shoving Zed in and forcing him continually wave clear and focus on last hitting instead of being aggressive.

Once they removed the ability for mages to shove Zed in the tides turned.

Sweetie Brella2/26/2015, 1:12:05 AM1 votes

The thing is, before the regen item nerfs it wasn't too much of a problem. Zed being able to use abilities indefinitely wasn't nearly as much as an issue when almost everyone else could as well.

Then Rito balance genii decided that mana should be the gating resource it was always intended, but energy, the "renewable" resource should stay without downsides. And suddenly it doesn't seem terribly fair that champions who used to be able to manage their resource with one item can't do that when the one who could manage his with zero can still do it just fine..

JevelFaithful2/26/2015, 3:02:42 AM1 votes

Just to point out. I think the mana change came mostly because they wanted to make every item being a %age of the base mana regen. Probably to mke it easier to know how much a given item will give you. Of course that was an gratuitous nerf accross the board. Just saying, it's probably a few dev at riot with good intents and poor execution.

I know Chalice specifically also got his passive changed. But every item also got hit because of what I said above.