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"Reform" - A Player Behavior Design Value. Why it is wrong.

NoPantsCommando·12/20/2014, 3:57:44 PM·22 votes·1,522 views

Basic human Psychology says that positive reinforcement is a better way to train people than negative reinforcement is (or "reform" as you call it.) You should reward your players that hold fast to what makes the League community great. And not just a silly banner seen at loading screens and champ select. Something meaningful, something tangible. Like an skin only obtainable by having few marks on your account over a years period. Or IP boosts, or RP giveaways. Something to work for, to change a players attitude, to reward good behavior.

What I read in your news posts is mostly about punishment. Not the way to go.

31 Comments

TheKingDodo12/20/2014, 9:25:19 PM8 votes

I take it you haven't actually taken any psych course, since negative reinforcement != punishment chat restriction = negative reinforcement (take away ability to X to increase happy times) Ban/Permban = punishment (best example of a virtual slap across the face) There is no definitive answer to which of the mentioned 3 behaviour modification is better Pos. reinforcement:

  • Players are happy :)
  • Players are NOT intrinsically motivated to be good; they do it for the reward
  • Recovery time to previous behavior is fairly quick after getting what they want

Neg. reinforcement:

  • Players are scared :(
  • Allows Players to self reflect and understand the reason due to lack of stimulus (e.g. not saying toxic things in chat seems to give better games -> better not say toxic stuff in the future)
  • Players can choose to respond appropriately later

Punishment:

  • Players may feel out of control (which ultimately leads to sadness and fear which is why punishment maybe mistaken for negative reinforcement at times)
  • Players will be motivated to avoid punishments. (not self motivated)
  • Scarring, difficult to unlearn

Overall: Pos. reinforcement and Punishment don't give the subject much choice, but this can be a good thing since quite often we, as humans, choose wrong. Negative reinforcement gives reflection time, but quite often subjects lack direct self-reflection (much like most game communities). Negative reinforcement is comparatively a very slow process due to subjects having to repeatedly be exposed to the reinforcement, but it's effects in the long run is fairly permanent. Positive reinforcement demands a steady (or non steady... depending on the scheduling) stream of rewards (also bad for business). Punishment is usually very harsh and is quite scarring, riot does a good job of using it scarcely to keep their customers.

TL;DR: positive reinforcement is usually like riot giving out free drugs, it drains money and it's not suitable for a business. negative reinforcement is super slow, but it's cheap and it's fairly permanent.

Way TL;DR: what you're proposing is easily exploitable and ineffective.

AbodyHUN66612/20/2014, 7:51:36 PM8 votes

You should read the summarising dev blog about player behaviour. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/player-behavior/exploring-player-behavior-design-values Negative reinforcement is just a part of the tribunal overhauling. About 2 months ago everyone who wasn't punished by chat restrictions or anything recieved a 4 win IP boost and rioters said more rewards will come. Only rewarding positive players won't help against people who think they have nothing to lose.

Remlap122312/20/2014, 10:04:31 PM3 votes

Yes, Riot is all about punishments and not about making the community better. They'll banhammer your ass like Thor on a bender, but they do jack shit to incentivize people to actually be not shit outside of the banhammer. The honor system has been bullshit from the beginning, and a 4 win IP boost at the end of the season for not being toxic? Come on. The only thing keeping people from leaving and AFKing in games is the threat of LeaverBuster permabanning your account, but there's no reason to stay in a game full of toxic fucks. If they actually gave real rewards, such as flat IP for honors, and if you're consistently honored throughout the season, you get an exclusive skin or something (Good Guy Garen or some shit? IDK). Maybe even you could write a report to Riot at the end of game saying how much you ENJOYED playing with a summoner (obviously friends will be exempt), and that would be a baseline.

As of right now, however, Riot is all about saying "You can't escape the toxic fucks, it's your job to better seek them out and report them, and stick with them til the end of the game, which we may or may not ban them." It's a shit way to keep people from leaving, and it's childish. How about instead of punishing the good players who have to deal with this nonsense, you reward them for it?

MattAkhavan12/21/2014, 12:11:40 AM3 votes

just because positive reinforcement works better doesn't mean "reform" doesn't work. Yes, they should do more positive reinforcement but reforms works too, and the numbers show it.

Wofye12/20/2014, 6:57:07 PM3 votes

Yes, while they're attempting to be on the topic of behavior, they shouldn't act like they're the founders and actually take previous research into consideration. (It's a bit dismissive)

ƒæµ12/21/2014, 9:58:53 AM2 votes

Awesome thread

Epilogue of Life12/20/2014, 9:03:00 PM2 votes

Completely agreed. Riot needs to see this and take this into consideration. Maybe every season, there should be a "Nice Guy/Girl" skin, along with the championship...Or RP giveaway. IP is really insignificant in this game once you've played for about a year...

NoMonku12/21/2014, 6:30:45 AM2 votes

While I do agree with what you are saying, I don't know if it is fair to those people who were "bad" before. What if they have reformed and are now considered "good". What happens to them? Also, I feel that trying to "incentivize" people with "rewards" is the right way to go. I mean, it is one option, but it doesn't really "reform" the person for the better, they are ONLY doing it because they want something.

This is just my opinion, but I always felt that RIOT kind of wanted to reform the players with poor behaviors to try and better them as well and I personally don't feel that trying to bribe them is the right way to go. Rewarding people still won't take away from the fact that some people will STILL act out badly, which means they will most likely have to deal with them anyways. As it is their game, they basically set the rules, which they explain to us when we sign up and reiterate it often enough that it is common knowledge. I don't think we should be "rewarded" for following the rules that they explained to us, though I won't say no to free stuff :D.

sharkster112/21/2014, 7:23:11 AM2 votes

I fully support this, and have had this position for a while now, but the sad fact of the matter is that Riot has, and will continue to turn a blind eye to posts like this because they are scared of change i guess, or perhaps they don't want to have been wrong about going about their buisness for all these years.

Saianna12/20/2014, 5:53:21 PM2 votes

That would be nice :)

Mathbalnase12/21/2014, 5:51:20 AM2 votes

Punishment, when properly implemented (prompt, reliable, and transparent), produces very strong short-term results. ('Negative reinforcement' refers to the removal of an undesirable stimulus to encourage further desired behaviour. 'Punishment' refers to the introduction of an undesirable stimulus to discourage further undesirable behaviour)

Positive reinforcement, when properly implemented, produces weaker but longer lasting results.

For best results, use both.

Sammystorm12/20/2014, 9:23:40 PM1 votes

a banner is something tangible.

Knight SoIaire 12/20/2014, 10:24:11 PM1 votes

Or IP boosts, or RP giveaways. Something to work for, to change a players attitude, to reward good behavior.

and then everybody spamms those reinforcing features just to gring ip untill they need it ... then they return to flame

the thing that players should get is supposed to be like our current banners but bigger flashier and better so negative ppl feel like they are worse when flaming, it cant be simple ip

ImHerVoice12/20/2014, 8:11:51 PM1 votes

they gave icons every year for people who don't get punished. Do your "reading" a bit better sir.

A baron with a christmas santa hat. My main has one, and so do thousands of other players. Infact I just played a game on LAN with a friend who has one on his main that he moved to LAN.

You read more about negativity because its the louder part of the community. Not because its actually all over the place. (though its probably in round 30% of all games since you're forced to spend at least 20 minutes with people who don't have any relationship with... shits gonna go down.. I'm surprised its not like 80% of all games have a toxic player or something)

riot needs to just start Private IP banning. Simple as that.